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Wraithguard are slow , wraithguard as troops are guaranteed slow because you cant transport them with anything less than a Vampire, and wraithguard are very expensive.

Slow and short ranged is a poor combination no matter how good your statline. What you described as an army core is 900pts lightly tooled up, with a ball and chain move and 12" guns, albeit good ones.

Unless you are playing a themed list full of deliberately chosen junk (like Iyanden do), or you havent a clue, a wraithguard Iyanden list should not be persistent challenge.

Longshot wrote:Eldrad is pretty much the only thing that will make a wraithguard list viable too =P

I don’t see how Eldrad is that much better for Wraithguard.

The thing that makes Eldrad so good is that he is a force multiplier, and the ability to cast whatever he wants, whenever he wants to makes him good.

For Wraithguard the thing you need is Fortune to make them nearly indestructible. It seems like you can get away with a regular Farseer since you will not use Doom and Guide much.

Orlanth the problem is as follows:

T6.

Screen everything but MC and vehicles.

Fearless.

Run.

Farseer + Warlock in the unit for CC goodness.

3+ armor save, re-rollable.

5+ cover save, re-rollable. Oh you're going to light me up this turn? Ok, I'll go to FOW mode and take myself to a 4+ cover save, re-rollable. Darnit I'm pinned. What's behind me waiting to come out?

Run almost anything from the list of goodies (Banshees, Harlequins, Scorpions, Warp Spiders, Warlock units, Shining Spears) up behind them, use Falcons or Wraithlords (for fire support) plus a few guardian squads (fire support and objective grabbing)...

Yeah, it's a bunch of bullsh*t. You should try it.

Where is the run coming from? They are not fleet, and noone wants to be stupid enough to get close to them. Other units are fleet, but you would either have to lurk them behind the wraithguard and hope they fail priority tests. That will work against guard half the time, and Tau if the dont take the C&C node or Pathfinders. Everying else had the Ld to igfnore screening. Screening has been by and large dead since 3.0

Sorry Stelek Wraithguard are fairly resilent, but not 35pts of resilient. The guns that will be taking them down will be ignoring their armour save, a rerolled 5+ will save just over half, but with your core of the army being 24 models the saves you make will not be enough. Acadfemic freally, as most armies will shjoot past them.

As for the close combat ability. s5 is good, but there is nothing in the unit that can bypass an armour save. There are many much cheaper options available to most army lists that will tear apart wraithguard up close.


Your biggest problem remains the cost, 900pts that doesnt do anything half the game, its a crippling handicap. In a 1500pt game you are playing with 600pts against 1500pts until the wraithguard get within 12", assuming hyou set up o the front line, and the opponent falls back 6" you wont get to do anything until turn 3 at the earliest, by which time a shooty army would have taken a very heavy toll of the Eldar army, and an assault army would have seized the initiative.

Orlanth wrote:Where is the run coming from? They are not fleet, and noone wants to be stupid enough to get close to them. Other units are fleet, but you would either have to lurk them behind the wraithguard and hope they fail priority tests. That will work against guard half the time, and Tau if the dont take the C&C node or Pathfinders. Everying else had the Ld to igfnore screening. Screening has been by and large dead since 3.0

Sorry Stelek Wraithguard are fairly resilent, but not 35pts of resilient. The guns that will be taking them down will be ignoring their armour save, a rerolled 5+ will save just over half, but with your core of the army being 24 models the saves you make will not be enough. Acadfemic freally, as most armies will shjoot past them.

As for the close combat ability. s5 is good, but there is nothing in the unit that can bypass an armour save. There are many much cheaper options available to most army lists that will tear apart wraithguard up close.


Your biggest problem remains the cost, 900pts that doesnt do anything half the game, its a crippling handicap. In a 1500pt game you are playing with 600pts against 1500pts until the wraithguard get within 12", assuming hyou set up o the front line, and the opponent falls back 6" you wont get to do anything until turn 3 at the earliest, by which time a shooty army would have taken a very heavy toll of the Eldar army, and an assault army would have seized the initiative.

Waithguard (and pretty much everything) can run in fifth ed

You do realize this is a discussion about 5th edition, right?

Wraithguard can run.

You can choose to pin and improve your cover save to 4+.
Re-rollable 4+ saves...who does that sound like. Oh yeah, Seer Council....but at T6.

Since Wraithguard can block LOS, you park them 1+" apart and screen a full unit of Harlequins right behind them.

Go ahead and assault. See how fun it is for the Eldar player. By the way, can you tell me what will 'own' Wraithguard? Remember the power fist nerf, friend.

900 points whittled down to 1 Wraithguard per squad is still two scoring units. Since it only takes 2 turns to get close to the other army, you have a choice. Get shot by the Wraithguard, or assault the tarpit and get owned by Harlequins.

Just FYI, I've played 3 games against the list. My drop pod marines lost, my Tau drew, and my Nids got a win. It's perfectly viable because in the new missions if you don't kill every single wraithguard, they contest and you can't win.

Play with the new rules...really.

The Avatar is good, and always will be, if you're taking Guardians and Dire Avengers he's twice as good. There's more than one way to play Eldar and foot slogging/ combined arms is perfectly viable.

Eldrad is good but you have to have a plan for him. I don't use him because he can't fleet but I might consider him in 5th because now he can run. A Farseer pays about 70 points each for his powers and Eldrad pays the same. He works well with an Avatar because you can fit 3 powers in one HQ slot.

Guardians are good but if you don't use them for their Shuriken catapults they are crap. You get way more Shuriken catapult offensive point for point with guardians than you do with Guardian jetbikes. Guide + Avatar is a great way to use them, which only makes sense for Eldar's basic Troop choice.

And Wraithguard are ok. Fearless is the bomb and everytime you pass one of those conceal saves you just got 35 points for free. They will block LoS in 5th which makes baby Jesus grow into big daddy happy pants.

Excelsior!

*sniffs some more paint*

You get more shuriken cat offense with the Guardians?

12" move + 12" range + 6" fallback; twin-linked.

6" move + 12" range + take it in the ass; not twin-linked.

lol how's it better again? Pay for a farseer to 'guide'? No thanks. I think Jetbikes are superior for delivering firepower. They lack heavy weapons, but they also don't get shot off the board.

I run my guardians in a 14 man squad including conceal w/ a Scatterlaser, that comes to 159 points. Compare this to Jetbikes at 152 points for 2 Cannons and 4 twin-linked Shuricats.

So 12 Shuricats + Pistol Shot vs 4 TL Shuricats for the same price. Given their mobility lets say the Bikes shoot twice as much so it's 12 vs 8 TL so it's about the same.

In exchange Guardians give you many more bodies in close combat.

If you like Farseers you can guide the guardians giving them massive concentrated fire power. Effective in a 20 man squad but then you're taking a big chance since your opponent will likely charge them first.

I'd say pure shooty/ objective grabbing bikes might be better (and they fit the theme of a mech list) but guardians are a perfectly good unit in their own right.

I've only had them actually killed to shooting a couple of times. Once against a Railhead w/ 3 markerlights helping it, and a couple times against a grumpy marine player heavy on storm bolters.

Normally they get cut down in close combat or run away (firing their weapon) but the Avatar stops this, making them a much much better squad.

I'll admit one army I used to have problems with was Speed Freak Orks with all their burnas everywhere. The lack of a stand and shoot option on their catapults hurts them when they are outmanouvered.

foot slogging orks I did good against but that was via scorpions and shooting down anything with an armour value.

gdurant wrote:
Waithguard (and pretty much everything) can run in fifth ed

The original topic was about 4th and 5th edition Avatar and Eldrad, not wraithguard

Stelek wrote:You do realize this is a discussion about 5th edition, right?

Wraithguard can run.

You were discussing having problems with wraithguard in current games.

Blackmoor wrote:

Longshot wrote:Eldrad is pretty much the only thing that will make a wraithguard list viable too =P

I don’t see how Eldrad is that much better for Wraithguard.

The thing that makes Eldrad so good is that he is a force multiplier, and the ability to cast whatever he wants, whenever he wants to makes him good.

For Wraithguard the thing you need is Fortune to make them nearly indestructible. It seems like you can get away with a regular Farseer since you will not use Doom and Guide much.

Eldrad lets you fortune two units and guide one, vs. fortune and guide of a normal farseer. Plus he lets you redeploy your massive, unwieldy, very expensive units.

Since wraithguard are Bs4 and have Ap2 guns, being able to guide them is great. Being able to guide your antitank guns (EML + Brightlance wraithlord) is even better.

Oh and the redeploy thing, if you get first turn, is going to be frigging ridiculous. You deploy your whole army. Wait for opponent to deploy.

Redeploy your units, then go first.

Ouch:(

Stelek wrote:You get more shuriken cat offense with the Guardians?

12" move + 12" range + 6" fallback; twin-linked.

6" move + 12" range + take it in the ass; not twin-linked.

lol how's it better again? Pay for a farseer to 'guide'? No thanks. I think Jetbikes are superior for delivering firepower. They lack heavy weapons, but they also don't get shot off the board.

Why do you keep switching back and forth between 4th and 5th Edition?

Also, you mentioned a Power Fist nerf- haven't read anything about that yet- what does it entail exactly?

Power fist no longer counts as 1 handed weapon unless it is coupled with another power fist like weapon. So you don't get +1 attack for fist and pistol in 5th edition.

Sorry the point of the thread was the difference between 4th and 5th edition Eldadator's zomg factor.

I think he's so-so in 4th, and in certain army matchups he's craptastic.

5th edition, I think the Avatar gets stronger in CC (against Marines) but weaker vs shooting, and Eldrad while he's a good psyker is a really bad choice unless you have an Avatar to keep his protective guardian squad fearless.

K?

Longshot wrote:Oh and the redeploy thing, if you get first turn, is going to be frigging ridiculous. You deploy your whole army. Wait for opponent to deploy.

Redeploy your units, then go first.

Ouch:(

Yes ouch indeed, not only do you get an early charge as Eldar are wont to do, but you get to flumox the opponent with the deployment of your most powerful assault units and get to assault with them along axes of advance the enemy has least covered with their guns. Given certain aspect lists that is a game winner right there.

Thankyou, notes have been taken.

I don't understand what's so great about Eldravatar. Am I the only one that runs an army that's very big on infantry that won't care about their starcannons and brightlances and can easily gun down every guardian squad into non-scoring while ignoring the avatar?

And if they're down to a handful of models, I'll go ahead and assault them. They're guardians. Some will die, the rest of the fearless ones will fail their puny saves due to No Retreat! and then there we are. Sure, the avatar will get into combat. But honestly if I'm in there mixing it up with the avatar, Eldrad is closeby, and he'll be the target for the next squad.

What army do you play spellbound?

Greets
Schepp himself

Hmmm....I think spellbound runs any army. Well ok, probably not Khorne.

You guys are funny.

You need to follow me around when I play at RTTs so you can convince my opponents that it is a waste of points. It seems like after I beat them very badly they all think it is cheesy.

Spellbound wrote:I don't understand what's so great about Eldravatar. Am I the only one that runs an army that's very big on infantry that won't care about their starcannons and brightlances and can easily gun down every guardian squad into non-scoring while ignoring the avatar?

And if they're down to a handful of models, I'll go ahead and assault them. They're guardians. Some will die, the rest of the fearless ones will fail their puny saves due to No Retreat! and then there we are. Sure, the avatar will get into combat. But honestly if I'm in there mixing it up with the avatar, Eldrad is closeby, and he'll be the target for the next squad.

This sounds good on paper until you notice.

Unless you are facing an Eldar horde army, all those dirt cheap guardians are only a fraction of the armies power, you want to assault what is left, face the counterassault of aspects and harlies.

If you are facing a guardian horde gunning down units of 20 guardians with conceal and Avatar is not something you can dismiss as a certain win. There is a lot of hidden power in those unit from the walking heavy weapons, the spear, 5+ cover saves and fearless. Don't underestimate them.

Guardian lists are overshadowed by holofalcons, but is by no means weak. 5th edition will make them strong with untargetable aspects and D-Cannon behind the marching guardian wall.

well, i try to stick to only speaking from experience, so i'll just say that eldrad has been a total waste for any opponent who's fielded him against me. has something to do with being eaten by scarabs.

I think Eldrad is priceless, but I have to admit that my more gamier opponents tend to get a powerfist into base contact with him, and then he always fails his save...

However, in 5th he'll be attached to a fortuned unit most of the time, so that won't be such a prob...


EDIT: Eldrad might actually make good sense attached to a squad of 10 Wraithguard...

Blackmoor wrote:You guys are funny.

You need to follow me around when I play at RTTs so you can convince my opponents that it is a waste of points. It seems like after I beat them very badly they all think it is cheesy.

Play better opponents. :(

I suppose you just ask the tourney organizer to only pair you up with the best opponents in the tourney as it is a waste of time to do otherwise.

Blackmoor played in multiple states and GT's and has a good record with the craptastic combo and your rebuttal is to play better opponents???

Wow....

Sarigar wrote:I suppose you just ask the tourney organizer to only pair you up with the best opponents in the tourney as it is a waste of time to do otherwise.

Blackmoor played in multiple states and GT's and has a good record with the craptastic combo and your rebuttal is to play better opponents???

Wow....

Can't agree more. Sari, you totally posted like right as I was logging in to post the same thing.

Stelek Cred = 0
Blackmoor Cred = Alot more than that

Is there anyway we can convince you to just go away? Maybe by offering you some money or something?

Oh no, I've been hit with the cred bat by the trolls!

Rofl! The sad facts of me playing in multiple states and having a good record without using the craptastic combo is I suppose meaningless for people such as yourself.

I do ask for the 'local champion' when I go to events, or at least someone who builds competitive lists. Often I'm disappointed as all hell.

Sadly you've contributed nothing to the discussion.

Sadly, neither have you.

And actually, I'm willing to contribute 100 dollars to this conversation. Seriously, if I paypal you 100 dollars, will you promise to never post on Dakka again?

Everyone, ray of sunshine. Sunshine, everyone.