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Can we honestly ban this total fething waste yet, or do we have to keep the moron around for a few more weeks. Its not really funny anymore, he is just a boring, trollish donkey-cave who doesn't understand math, can't distinguish between objectivity and hearsay and has the fething bravado and nerve to tell a multiple GT contender to play better opponents. I don't care how good of a person he is in real life, because on this forum he is a joke, and an old one at that.

Oh my god! Alert a mod! Bring out the censorship gun! Stelek is being attacked! I REPEAT: STELEK IS BEING ATTACKED!

HIT THE DECK!!!!!



edit: if I were Stelek, I'd take that offer. What an easy $100...and everybody wins! (and no making new accounts...the ignorance smacks too loudly so we'd know!)

Darkhellion, you know the only possible outcome of doing this again is another temporary ban.

Your post would have been just as or more effective at making your point without the insults.

Please folks, bear in mind that deconstructing someone's post or argument and attacking the ideas is always better than attacking the person.

I simply don't use the eldrad+avatar combo, because I dislike special characters in a standard army list. Without that credo, I would take him everytime, just because he is almost always better than a ordinary farseer. If you start to tool him up, e gets almost as expensive as eldrad but far worse. So in conclusion, saying that eldrad isn't good (in this case with avatar) is like saying a farseer ain't any good, which is in fact, simply untrue.

Not in every list, sometimes you need that ride for your seer, but in every other list...

Greets
Schepp himself

Well, it think the secret to my army is that I have a lot of victory points left over at the end of the game.

It always looks like I have been chewed up, and a lot of units have been killed, but they are mostly cheap Guardians and Dire Avengers.

I normally have the Avatar, Eldrad, Dark Reapers and a Falcon or 2 still flying around at the end of turn #6. Those units are very hard to kill and that is 800+ VPs right there. It might look like I have nothing left, but what I have costs a lot.


Also why does everyone say that my army will be getting a lot worse in 5th edition? Is it just because of the skimmer nerf? I just don't see it. The only change I see is that I have to be more careful when I move my Falcons, and I just can't throw them out there. I think this army gets better in 5th edition because I have a lot of troop choices.

I think for the next RTT I will chalenge myself by not using Eldrad or Falcons.

Stelek wrote:
I do ask for the 'local champion' when I go to events, or at least someone who builds competitive lists. Often I'm disappointed as all hell.

If I did not play the 'local champion' on the way up, then that is who you end up facing in round #3.

I played the 'local champion' (Scored in the top 10 in the GW Tournement Circuit) in the third round of an RTT a couple of months ago, and I beat his Eldar with my little bug horde.

I have already deconstructed Steleks behavior before. If you want to be pissed at me for thinking he is a worthless member of this board go ahead, but how much actual contribution has he done compared with his inane trolling, and post-count inflating pretenses of martyrdom. While there seems to be an increase in posting with him on the board, the majority of said posting is worthless posts telling him to shut up. I provided the exact reasonings why I feel he should be banned. They are plainly obvious. Now instead of getting pissed at me for forcing the language filter to trigger, and pointing out that an enormous douche is in fact an enormous douche, why don't we see his badgering and trolling actions being censured? Because he has the audacity to follow the letter of the rules of the board, while totally disregarding all the standards of forum etiquette, rational debate, and simple internet communication? I'd rather use profanity, be un-liked by the board staff, and be actually contributive, than to play some internet pariah like Stelek and be a worthless pompous joke.

Blackmoor I think the way you run the army will need to change, and it's finding that sweet point again that will determine if the army is the pits or not.

Skill makes up for a great many things.

Darkhellion, neither I nor any of the other moderators are angry at you. It’s not about anger. It’s about the rules.

If you see a post in which Stelek or another user is breaking a rule, hit the Alert Mods button. The little yellow caution sign with the ! on it. =

Profanity and personal attacks don’t make things better, no matter how frustrated you are with someone.

I completely agree with you Darkhellion.

It is sad that the current MODS, not only tolerate Steleks behavior, but they actually seem to encourage it. Makes me wish Russ still owned the site.

Darrian

Darrian, please hit the Alert Mods button on any posts in which you see Stelek violate the rules.

Once again dude, you can always just not read his posts. I personally like reading the arguments that come up, he's a funny guy in his own way and regardless of whether or not you agree with him he does love playing the game.

Believe it or not these are also the exact sort of arguments/whining/trolling that came about when mauleed starting posting with his condescending, bait-style posts and his min-max marine style. Not that I'm trying to run a comparison here, I severely doubt that we'll all be playing Stelek-pattern Eldar a year from now (though it looks like I will be, as I hate the Avatar models, both FW and stock, and I find special characters to be distasteful), but rather that it's easy to become offended by someone's posting style and contrary ideas and miss the point of what they're doing or saying. Maul eventually lightened up too.

Simply put, it's easy to get riled up because someone has an odd manner while posting, and maybe sees and plays the game in a different way than you think is proper. This board is here so that guys like Stelek can tell you that an Avatar and Eldrad is a waste of points, so that you can either a) try his version out and see what's up or b) do some contrary thinking and disregard the guy. Banning someone like that is contrary to what discussion's all about.

Personally I don't think mech Eldar will be as weak as people are saying in 5th. Certainly it will be harder, you can't just place your Falcons anywhere the hell you want any more, but they'll still have a save against hits, they'll still have SS, VE, and HF, and a boatload of guns. Harlies will lose about 20-30% of their killing power, but that will still be enough to down or break a lot of units, and rending was all about lucky rolls anyway. Plus Fire Dragons can and maybe will do a lot of the things that people are relying on Harlies to do now. Of course, you won't be able to just take 2 units of Pathfinders to round out your troops anymore, but there's lots of cheap, good infantry running around the army list.

I guess what I don't see with the Eldrad/Avatar combo is how the Avatar isn't just shot off the board. As an MC he's hard to hide, and T6 4+ save isn't exactly great. Sure he can be fortuned, but even then medium arms fire has to catch up with him eventually, plus it means one less power being used on someone else. Eldrad is an excellent farseer, but lists without seers are perfectly viable and the fact that he's a footslogger imposes certain restrictions on list construction. I won't say that the Eldrad/Avatar combo sucks, but I also wouldn't just recommend it to everyone either.

Also, the whole 'kiss the rings' mentality with Blackmoor's GT record bothers me. Not to besmirch Blackmoor, as I respect him as a contributing member on this board, but simply quoting some guy's win record doesn't win arguments on list strength. People have won GT's with laughable army lists, and gotten very good scores in battle points while they were at it. Scenarios, terrain, players, luck, all come to the fore when playing in a GT, good lists/players can lose, bad lists/players can win. I don't mean that Blackmoor didn't have a good list or that he is not a good player, I just want to say that using him as an argument to try to squash debate is a little bit trite.

Back on subject.

The eldravatar backed up by guardians seems to provide a cheep and effective fire base that can survive far longer than it would without the two big guys or the points investment would make it seem.

I am not sure how it will hold up in 5th edition.
On one hand it will provide cheep troops that are good at not running (they still get chewed through).
On the other hand they aren't that hard to kill and the buffs to assault armies mean they can get to the guardians and maul them better than the current environment would allow.

On the thought of wraithguard, anyone who thinks chewing through 10 concealed, fortuned wraithguard in shooting is easy should try it. It is almost with normal levels of shooting. On the other hand, my thunder hammer equipped chaplain can kill all of them in three rounds of combat, tops. This will only get better in 5th when the wraithguard can run, scoring troops become more important, and the powerfists of the world get one less attack.

The same goes, to a lesser extent, for the avatar once eldrad fortunes him. And, because you have eldrad, if the first attempt fails you can do it again.

So, all in all, i think that the eldravatar/guardian combo, with or without wraithguard, is a decent combo that will get better as 5th edition rolls around.

DarkHellion wrote:I have already deconstructed Steleks behavior before. If you want to be pissed at me for thinking he is a worthless member of this board go ahead, but how much actual contribution has he done compared with his inane trolling, and post-count inflating pretenses of martyrdom. While there seems to be an increase in posting with him on the board, the majority of said posting is worthless posts telling him to shut up. I provided the exact reasonings why I feel he should be banned. They are plainly obvious. Now instead of getting pissed at me for forcing the language filter to trigger, and pointing out that an enormous douche is in fact an enormous douche, why don't we see his badgering and trolling actions being censured? Because he has the audacity to follow the letter of the rules of the board, while totally disregarding all the standards of forum etiquette, rational debate, and simple internet communication? I'd rather use profanity, be un-liked by the board staff, and be actually contributive, than to play some internet pariah like Stelek and be a worthless pompous joke.

dude, if you want me to read that you need to break up your sentences into paragraphs like Stelek does.

I personally think he's wrong about Eldrad and really wrong about the Avatar but he's had no shortage of good ideas around here.

All I can say is that the Avatar / Eldrad Combo is what got my team to 6th place in the Adepticon Team Tournament.

Usually someone who is unanimously disliked on an internet forum is such because they start a lot of controversial discussion and arguments. Unfortunately there are members (or, at least one member) of this forum who do the exact opposite, and derail all constructive conversation, think they know everything, and resort to the most immature behavior only when they've been proven wrong so many times they have nothing left to babble about. These (this) member contributes very little and is very quick to point out why someone is wrong (often they are incorrect themselves) while offering no alternatives.

The particular member I have in mind at the moment constantly claims he or she is being victimized by personal attacks. Personally, I have been "attacked" by them, without ever making a personal attack of my own. I'm not offended, it's an internet forum for Christ's sake. If you're still thinking about it a few minutes later, that's your own damn fault. This member, though, chooses to pretend or may actually believe that I have attacked them by politely and until a point respectfully asking them to not derail my threads and avoid posting in them if that wasn't possible. Whatever, who cares, I can ignore them and it won't affect me any further as long as they don't prevent the discussion I try to generate. I post this because this seems to be the exact complaint many members have themselves with the same user(s).

Clearly, the moderators are okay with this behavior, as at no point in the rules does it state that a member's posts may not be comprised of mindless drivel, or that they must contribute to the discussion at hand (I think?). This user does not need to be banned in my opinion, but he or she should certainly examine their posting habits. I fail to see how it does them any good to spend hours a day on an internet forum pissing people off, actually inhibiting discussion rather than contributing to it, and generally wasting our time and theirs.

The mods (again, correctly IMO) won't step in, but that doesn't mean nothing can be done. Stop feeding this user so much attention. Of course it will be easier with an ignore function, but it's certainly not impossible without.

To contribute something relevant to the discussion-
I think the only build where the Avatar and Eldrad are auto-includes come 5th edition is the Wraithguard build. It's certainly a strong pair of units, but it seems that many successful Eldar players are about equally successful without them. This doesn't by any means imply that the Avatar and Eldrad won't be solid in 5th edition, but that their inclusion might not be so automatic. A lot of numbers need to be run, which is good because that's what I like to do.

Darrian13 wrote:I completely agree with you Darkhellion.

It is sad that the current MODS, not only tolerate Steleks behavior, but they actually seem to encourage it. Makes me wish Russ still owned the site.

Darrian

Ouch man. That's pretty cold coming from you. I'm not sure what you remember about Russ's tenure, but he banned very, very, very few people. In fact, the only person I can even recall being banned from Dakka in the last several years was Chris Valera and only then because he refused to accept even the most basic forum rules (and it was upon my recommendation).

The point is, one thing I feel I learned from Russ is that it pays to be fair and patient when it comes to banning someone from your forums, because once you start doing it you run the real risk of sliding down a slippery slope where you are banning people simply because you don't like their opinions, and IMHO that's not the kind of site I want to be associated with.

In the end, I don't feel that Stelek is purposely trying to hurt the forum. If I did, he would be banned. I do not agree with most of his opinions and I certainly don't care for his arrogance. However, he has been penalized in the past for certain outbreaks and I do know that he has made efforts to clean up his act which is one of the signs of someone who wants to contribute to the forum as opposed to ruining it.

In many ways, he reminds me of how Mauleed was when he first started posting here (his tone, not so much the content of his arguments) and Mauleed got many of the same responses and attacks that Stelek is getting now. You may not think much of Stelek's advice or arguments but you can rest assured that there are people out there who do appreciate his differing point of view.

Remember that no one is forced to read or respond to any post. If you don't like what he is saying the best thing to do is often simply not reply at all to it. Also, within a few months time we will have an 'ignore user' function implemented so you can automatically choose not to see any poster's posts that you don't care to read.

I do know that Stelek still straddles the line of acceptable behavior at times and when he does the appropriate response is to alert the moderators.

yakface wrote:
In many ways, he reminds me of how Mauleed was when he first started posting here (his tone, not so much the content of his arguments) and Mauleed got many of the same responses and attacks that Stelek is getting now. You may not think much of Stelek's advice or arguments but you can rest assured that there are people out there who do appreciate his differing point of view.

Remember that no one is forced to read or respond to any post. If you don't like what he is saying the best thing to do is often simply not reply at all to it.

Considering that those paragraphs are almost exactly what was in my post, can I be a moderator now yak?

What's wrong with using special characters?

I agree, back in the day when you had to have "opponent's permission" to use them, I was against their inclusion in any army list and for good reasons.

However, with the advent of the new codex structure GW seems to be leaning towards the option of taking special characters for "variant" army purposes. The Ork codex, Dark Angel, Eldar (lesser extent), and Chaos codexes all comply to this new strategy. Special characters are now equivalent to "traits", "craftworlds", or other "variant lists" that previously resorted to entire new sets of rules.

ColonelEllios wrote:What's wrong with using special characters?

I agree, back in the day when you had to have "opponent's permission" to use them, I was against their inclusion in any army list and for good reasons.

However, with the advent of the new codex structure GW seems to be leaning towards the option of taking special characters for "variant" army purposes. The Ork codex, Dark Angel, Eldar (lesser extent), and Chaos codexes all comply to this new strategy. Special characters are now equivalent to "traits", "craftworlds", or other "variant lists" that previously resorted to entire new sets of rules.

This is a current trend in GW's codices and one that I accept, I personally just don't like using them. It's one thing for me when generic Farseer/Commander Steve bites it, entirely another when Eldrad Ulthran personally takes the field with 4 squads and a tank and gets smacked by a force weapon by some Librarian.

If other guys want to, I have no qualms with that, it's necessary to play some armies and fun for a lot of people. It's just an invisible restriction I put on my list construction.

Turtle wrote:

ColonelEllios wrote:What's wrong with using special characters?

I agree, back in the day when you had to have "opponent's permission" to use them, I was against their inclusion in any army list and for good reasons.

However, with the advent of the new codex structure GW seems to be leaning towards the option of taking special characters for "variant" army purposes. The Ork codex, Dark Angel, Eldar (lesser extent), and Chaos codexes all comply to this new strategy. Special characters are now equivalent to "traits", "craftworlds", or other "variant lists" that previously resorted to entire new sets of rules.

This is a current trend in GW's codices and one that I accept, I personally just don't like using them. It's one thing for me when generic Farseer/Commander Steve bites it, entirely another when Eldrad Ulthran personally takes the field with 4 squads and a tank and gets smacked by a force weapon by some Librarian.

If other guys want to, I have no qualms with that, it's necessary to play some armies and fun for a lot of people. It's just an invisible restriction I put on my list construction.

That's not 4 squads and a tank, that's a small focused skirmish, the center point of a massive battle bringing ruin to a planet's entire ecosystem. And the fact that the players are recreating an epic confrontation involving a storied hero of the 41st millenium just makes it all the more exciting.

As for the force weapon thing, even Eldrad has set backs . I actually thought he was dead but shows what I know.

I will say that I do not agree with Darrien's statements, as I like Yaks running of the board quite a lot. Russ would have had to deal with exactly the same thing as Yak is having to deal with, and would have been forced by board rules and past board culture and precedent to do the exact same things.

What really irks me is that Stelek abuses these things. Whether he knows it or not, his tenure on this board abuses the fact that there is simply no way to make hard mechanistic rules to discourage trolls. As long as he follows the letter of the law, he is safe. Despite the derision that many members of this board feel for him, and the fact that despite his grandiose claims, unlike Ed or Therion he has not shown much to prove his skills as he has shown a distinct lack for objective reasoning, he is perfectly safe, because in no way is being an arrogant, probably very insecure person bannable, even if they literally post more in a week than most posters have posted in their lifetime on this board and yet fail to do simple statistics to back up their ideas.

As you said Yak, I don't think that Stelek is trying to hurt the board, the problem is he cannot see that he is, because in his mind, he does not see why we have standards of objectivity, why we shouldn't take his claims at face value, or that someone disagreeing with his opinion in a confrontation way is not an excuse for his sickening display of pseudo-martydom. It is this display above all else that makes me despise him... as I have said, what kind of grown man has to painstakingly point out every time someone attacks them on an internet forum about pushing army men around the board? It smacks either of insecurity or that he is truly trying to be a troll, not understanding that such trollishness engenders hatred.

You guys need to look at the bright side of this.

Dakka tollerates differences in opinion! You try to post an opinion at Warseer and people yell at you over your 'tone' and how 'cheesy' you are. You try to defend yourself and get warned by mods for 'not playing nice'. It's pathetic. Here the competative player rules supreme, and we're allowed to argue out our views on various strategies. Be thankful for that.

Sure, Stelek is probably the most arrogant person on Dakka who fails to see that there are other ways of playing this game besides his own, but Ed wasn't any different when he first showed up. He'll eventually learn that there are ways of playing 40K that are equally as competative, and that there is such a thing as 'local metagame', but in the mean time do what Dakka does best - tollerate him. We could be different. We could be Warseer. And no one here wants that.

BYE

DarkHellion wrote:I will say that I do not agree with Darrien's statements, as I like Yaks running of the board quite a lot. Russ would have had to deal with exactly the same thing as Yak is having to deal with, and would have been forced by board rules and past board culture and precedent to do the exact same things.

What really irks me is that Stelek abuses these things. Whether he knows it or not, his tenure on this board abuses the fact that there is simply no way to make hard mechanistic rules to discourage trolls. As long as he follows the letter of the law, he is safe. Despite the derision that many members of this board feel for him, and the fact that despite his grandiose claims, unlike Ed or Therion he has not shown much to prove his skills as he has shown a distinct lack for objective reasoning, he is perfectly safe, because in no way is being an arrogant, probably very insecure person bannable, even if they literally post more in a week than most posters have posted in their lifetime on this board and yet fail to do simple statistics to back up their ideas.

As you said Yak, I don't think that Stelek is trying to hurt the board, the problem is he cannot see that he is, because in his mind, he does not see why we have standards of objectivity, why we shouldn't take his claims at face value, or that someone disagreeing with his opinion in a confrontation way is not an excuse for his sickening display of pseudo-martydom. It is this display above all else that makes me despise him... as I have said, what kind of grown man has to painstakingly point out every time someone attacks them on an internet forum about pushing army men around the board? It smacks either of insecurity or that he is truly trying to be a troll, not understanding that such trollishness engenders hatred.

I think you need to realize that some of the problem here rests with those posters that just can't simply tolerate him. It is an internet forum, he has a differing opinion and states it, the fact that you don't like it or how he says it does not change the fact that most of the things he's done are perfectly allowable. Freedoms are made to be pushed to the limit, abused as you put it, you can in fact call the president a bad person, you can in fact believe that Avatars suck. Getting offended on the basis of opinion and flying off the handle at the guy is what causes this enmity to occur.

What I find so funny in all of this is that there are posters on this board that just can't stand to have someone stand up to their conventional wisdom, and that such posting inevitably leads to shouting matches and name-calling. You have an opinion, post it, list your arguments, counter the ones your opponent has logically and civilly, then end it there.

Exactly this has happened before, and rather than banning people we've let them continue to be valued and contributing members of Dakka easily, rather than banning someone for not violating our rules then crossing our arms secure that our little boys club is safe once again. That's what makes Dakka great, that differing opinions can contribute. Hell, the fact that we're even getting the chance to argue this reinforces that point, as obviously you guys haven't had enough contact with real trolls if you're trying to string out this guy.

It's true that he defends his sentiments rather harshly and has a hell of a way of posting. Coming back from my little gaming hiatus when I saw this Stelek post I hated it. Sometimes his brevity and borderline offensiveness still bothers me, especially in army lists. But here I am defending this guy's right to do just that. Why is it so hard to just accept that he's got something to say, even if you don't like it?

What was the topic of the thread again? All about my Stelek?

I have serious flashback memories of all the talk about quitting and never buying anything else for like ever. It happens all the time when a codex/edition/white dwarfs gets released. And with posters like stelek it's the same. Many people brag about ignoring him in the future, but what happens? Threads are being lead off-topic to discuss his behavior!

go figure

Greets
Schepp himself

The thread topic was:

Whitedragon will paypal 100 US Dollars to Stelek to never post on Dakka again.

And to compare Stelek to Mauleed just because they are both coarse is well, missing the other half of what makes Mauleed "special."

Ed actually backs up his stuff with credible evidence, whether it be a solid "Win/Loss" record, or careful dissection of the Rulebook.

Stelek does NEITHER, and is just coarse. And it is also disturbing to see that the top weekly and monthly poster is "Stelek" again and again. Alot of the threads he posts in almost become a sort of "chat session". This is a discussion board, not a chat room people.

And Eldrad and the Avatar are the modern Odd couple. One's a geek, the other is the flaming God of War. Together they are an inseparable pair, and further proof that opposites attract.

Schepp himself wrote:What was the topic of the thread again? All about my Stelek?

I have serious flashback memories of all the talk about quitting and never buying anything else for like ever. It happens all the time when a codex/edition/white dwarfs gets released. And with posters like stelek it's the same. Many people brag about ignoring him in the future, but what happens? Threads are being lead off-topic to discuss his behavior!

go figure

Greets
Schepp himself

Stelek, I wish I could quit you.

Seriously though. I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked for being off topic not to mention the sniping and ad homanims.

Again the break down of this thread was?

1. Does the odd couple make for a competitive crime fighting duo?

This begs the question what does a good eldar army look like. As I said before it looks like Stelek made this post because he feels eldar armies should be fast and fierce. Makes sense, for the most part eldar are fagile and do best when they can deliver the fight on their

own terms. Again this view point can be evidenced by Stelek's army comp. A lot of bikes and mobile elements. When running the odd couple it behooves you to take multiple units that would benefit from the Avatars cheer leading and Ederad's powers. Jet bikes like being

fearless, but the odd couple is too slow to keep up. Dire avengers don't offer a lot of threat (though they might make decent support fire.) Pathfinders are stationary and don't really need to be cheer lead in order to do well. So this leaves wraithguard and guardians.

Waithguard as competitive has yet to be established. Either way they don't need the odd couple to do well. So that leaves us with guardians. Storm guardians will always be useless. You need at least 15 of them with enhance before they get any good. So transports and

walking both become bad options. Defender units move at the same speed as the merry odd couple. And can carry a heavy weapon to boot. So they seem like a solid choice for this composition.

Possible Tactics:
Avatar screams and waives is bloody hand around while marching forward.
Elderad fortunes his buddy, then he fortunes/guides as needed.
Guardians move forward shooting at targets and eventually part themselves on an objective.

Downsides.
1. Not as mobile as Mech/bike lists.
2. Vulnerable to anti horde firepower. (I know conceal helps and fortuned conceal really helps, but you can only fortune two units, and one of those better be the avatar because.....
3. Lynchpins (Kill either the avatar or ederad and you have problems.)
4. Prone to assaults.
5. Has to be within short range to get maximum firepower.

Upsides.
1. Very resilient
2. Decent fire power
3. Sneaky way to add more wave serpent to the list (they make decent tanks in 4th and 5th alike)
4. Has counter assault elements built in.
5. Pretty good at holding objectives.
6. Gives me an excuse to get the FW avatar model

Can this be an effective list? Sure why not. Blackmoore has had a lot of success with it. I ran this same list in third edition when it wasn't nearly as good and did very well. I don't think it has the intrinsic value of say a 4th ed nidzilla list. But then again what does?

In 5thed with snipers getting rending, and even now, pathfinders on a doomed unit are amazing.

Fortuned pathfinders are one of the most resilient units in the game for non-template shots, as well.

I played a version of Blackmoors list with my IG list. It was designed to defeat marines. Game didn't last very long. Hellhounds decimated the Guardian squads, the leman russes took out the reapers and pathfinders. Plasma drops took out the Avatar and the guardians started folding. The Harlies in both Falcons hid the whole game, nothing to kill but 1-2 guardsmen then get plasma'd or templated. It was really boring to play against, and my opponent wasn't too happy--he thought I was playing a list built to kill his. What numbers am I supposed to post? I shot what wasn't fortuned (hellhounds) and kept shooting what was (leman russes). The plasmas took 16 shots to down the Avatar, then I sat back and waited for the Eldar to fold. Lost almost every guy I dropped to return fire, but that's normal. In the end it was a draw. Under 5th edition rules, it was a win due to KPs. This army does well against my Eldar too, since it's essentially a marine army (T4, 3+ saves). Difference is in the numbers. I never killed the Eldar HQ's, even though the Farseer Council got pounded by plasma fire, hellhounds, and leman russ shots. They just zoomed around most of the game. 3+ invul with a re-roll is so much crap.

I guess the point is, I think the Eldatar combo is based around Guardians. Guardians aren't good troops by any stretch of the imagination. Even buffed by Warlocks, Eldrad, and the Avatar.

It's weak to alot of light fire, template weapons, and as others have noted--you lose the Avatar, suddenly your basic troops aren't so hot.

5+ fortuned is *not* uber. 3+ fortuned *is*.

More on that in a minute.

I have yet to take a footslogging Eldar into my gunwall Nids and survive--one based around the Avatar. I don't know how Blackmoor does, but I suspect the Tyranid MC list players are not running the gunwall properly. The reapers are a real problem, but what else is new? The harlequins can come play anytime before the wall has suffered serious losses, and the 24 stealers/32 gaunts will see them dead. Especially in 5th edition, where small squads suck. Just my random thoughts.

My experience with my own gunwall army (which doesn't use expensive stuff, it uses everything on the cheap so there is more of everything--barring spinegaunt usage) against a footslogging Eldar army is shoot what isn't fortuned. How do I deal with reapers/pathfinders? Gaunts. If you screen them with guardians, I'll lock you in combat until I can shoot your guardians--then I will start crunching your guardians while you kill a fex a turn. Killing 30 guardians, even fortuned, is not difficult for my gunwall. In comparison, my fortuned Seer Council unit is too mobile to deal with effectively--sure I can turn the gunwall to face it, but the Falcons and Guardian Jetbikes then get clear shots at the stealers. If I focus on the Seer Council, not only do I face the very real possibility of achieving nothing but I also don't degrage any other elements of the Eldar army. The Falcons *have* to be stunned constantly, or they attrition your 3+ MC units away and leave you vulnerable to a drop'n'pop by a FD unit. Anyway the gunwall likes gunline armies, since it's superior to almost all of them. Only my mech Eldar and my drone Tau have stood up to the gunwall successfully.
My IG guts it, but loses everything doing so. Which I don't mind really, it is a last chancer suicide list after all. It doesn't let you win games in 5th edition though, not with any kind of assurance the crappy plasmagunner units will be alive at the end of the game. Cool breezes kill them. lol

Anyway, my Seer Council has hit the gunwall on turn 2 and ground it's way through multiple MC and genestealer units before folding. It's worst performance, it only made it's points back. That isn't a priority for me, but alot of other players value it that way.

It gets its punch with the Spears/Autarch unit running in and out of combat. Comes in, kills stuff, leaves. Repeat until it's too dangerous to leave combat (you'll get shot alot, for example), or the Seer Council has finally been ground down.

Having a Fire Prism and 2 Fire Dragon units to zap MC units or template units gives the army flexibility the Eldatar combo usually doesn't take. Destructor is fine and all, but it isn't scary. S4 is just annoying. S5 with re-rolls to wound? Yeah, that's scary. Hellhounds? Yeah, scary. Can wipe entire units out. Destructor kills or wounds a few guys, big deal.

Anyways, while I really like say GBF's army (really nice color scheme) playing with poor terrain, and trying to substitute rhinos for it...just asking to get shot away. For me, the end opinion for and against the two army types is the same one as for and against a 'normal' Gojira list and a 'Choir' list. I think the former is better against any and all comers, while the latter is better against a few army types but overall is weaker against any and all comers. Same thing here with the two armies.