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Interesting...and I can see your point.

Only problem I see here is that even though your army list (bikelocks with seer+ falcons+bikes i suppose?) can be better, it doesn't make the avatar+eldrad combo a point waste. In 3rd there were very ugly power armies out there, but IW, Seer councils and Pathfinders didn't invalidate other very good but maybe not as optimized choices completely!

Yeah, maybe your army is better than the guardian+eldratar combo, but that doesn't make them points waste extra ordinaire as your threadtitle suggests.

Greets
Schepp himself

Elravatard is best in an advancing foot army made up of Dire Avengers, Guardians, and wraith constructs, IMO. And unfortunately my opinion here is formed by being on the pointy end of this setup rather than the wielder (a fact that will change as I experiment towards 5th ed. infantry builds). Here's what fighting this setup has shown me:

As you all know, resiliency is greatest with multiple similar units, restricting the number of enemy weapons available to deal with a given threat. If you're taking tanks, take lots of tanks, etc. Here, it's stuff that kills high toughness units (the Avatar) through volume of fire. Other units that take that kind of killin' include Wraithlords, wraithguard, and vehicles. Three Wraithlords plus the Eldravatard, surrounded by tons of Avengers and Guardians, make for a very nasty nut to crack. It's a moving firebase surrounded by tons of ablative wounds. Add cover and Fortune, and it's really deadly. It's like TMC, but with better high-strength low AP shooting and rerolls on important stuff. Add in Mind War picking out your powerfist equivalents before you get into CC, and gaunt-equivalents that can actually shoot, too. Admittedly, I was definitely having a bad day when I fought this list. Still, all the heavy weapons are a lot to deal with.

I've never played against the Wraithguard version of this, but can imagine that it would be too short-ranged to force the enemy to come to you effectively.

The Wraithlord version, however, is really nasty. 6 BS4 heavy weapons, 3+ BS 3 heavy weapons, and tons of anti-infantry shooting make staying in the medium range not a very good idea.
Closing sucks because the WLs and Avatar are a serious countercharge when they attack en masse, plus a fearless troop mass keeps you stuck on that anvil 'till the big guys jump in. The only good way to deal with the force is to stay at long range and down the Wraithlords, then the Avatar with your heavy weapons... and that's assuming that you have the mobility and range to do so.

I also disagree the Dire Avengers "don't offer a lot of threat". Bladestorms are terrifying at medium range, and with SS/PW, Avengers can live a long time in hand to hand while the big boys close in. Yes, they die to heavy bolters very quickly- but then those bolters aren't shooting the Avatar. And if they're within regular bolter range, the enemy is close to Bladestorm range.

Let's say you lose the Avatar turn 1 to shooting.

Tigerius drops on turn 2 and gets past the runes.

Did you just lose?

I don't think gimmicks (even semi-powerful ones like this, or lash) are worth spending points on when common occurances invalidate your army from the get-go.

Having matchups and terrain that favor your army doesn't mean your army list is sound, it tends to hide it's weaknesses. Blackmoor is aware (as most players are) that the standard tournaments run 2x2x1 terrain pieces.
There is also a preponderance of marine armies and a distinct lack of xenos armies at most tournaments.

If you plan (hope?) that there will be little terrain (but there's a building!) and marines will be your opponent 2/3 or 3/5 times; you can do really well in the GW game system with almost any army.

That doesn't make the army good! For me, good armies are ones that can go into anything (exception: stupid scenarios) and handle themselves well.

I don't think much of the Avatar, Mr. Shoot Me. Everything from heavy bolters through lascannons will ring his bell. Diversity and flexibility, the army doesn't have much of it with 390 points sunk into two slowpokes.
I daresay GBF would have done much better in his game if he'd have gone first. A fault in the game system, not in Blackmoors army. Anyway, I hope everyone mentioned doesn't take any of this personally. I don't.

Sometimes, you just have to feel your way. Numbers and theoryhammer can only take you so far. Play as many people as you can, with as many different armies as you/they can muster. Makes for better armies, and better opponents. Which is still my primary reason for posting here on Dakka. I want challenges, not grudge matches with the 'my paper vs your rock' games. Those aren't ever fun.

Alright- what kind of shooting will it take to drop the Avatar on turn one, given that he's Fortuned?

Especially if he's shieldwalled by three Wraithlords? Opponents would have to shoot through at least one of the Wraithlords, then the fortuned Avatar. Not bloody likely, unless you're playing against IG gunline and have been very unlucky with terrain.

Sure, he's Mr. Shoot Me. Let 'em do that. Meanwhile, all those missile launchers and heavy bolters haven't been shooting troops, and lascannons haven't been shooting your Wraithlords.

Finally, you're right that a smart player will not _depend_ entirely upon the Avatar. He's just an extra layer of kickass. A second CC plan should always be there, and tons of SS/PW Avengers plus multiple Wraithlords or a decent countercharge unit like Scorpions should do fine against the (much shot-up) remains of the enemy. The Fearlessness is nice, but not the end of the world if you lose it. Well, if you have something other than Guardians around.

That's it- I'm tacking together the 3rd ed. Wraithlords sitting in my bitz box and trying this list out this weekend. Should I _get_ a weekend, that is. Startups suck.

Oh, and that was a well-reasoned and even-tempered post, Stelek. Hope you're not going all soft on us. Heh.

I'm suprised that no one has mentioned the ability of an inconvienient psychic hood block against fortune and how much it can throw a wrench in Eldrad's day. If the Fortune's tend to go on the Avatar and Eldrad, if one is blocked that leaves one of them open to a major firestorm, especially in 5th ed. They work well as a pair, but if one goes down the army as a whole really suffers.

You're right about hoods- but Eldrad rarely needs the Fortune as long as he avoids template fire. Losing one power per turn on average really does blow, though. On the good side, that librarian probably won't be casting as much either.

Savnock wrote:Alright- what kind of shooting will it take to drop the Avatar on turn one, given that he's Fortuned?

Especially if he's shieldwalled by three Wraithlords? Opponents would have to shoot through at least one of the Wraithlords, then the fortuned Avatar. Not bloody likely, unless you're playing against IG gunline and have been very unlucky with terrain.

Sure, he's Mr. Shoot Me. Let 'em do that. Meanwhile, all those missile launchers and heavy bolters haven't been shooting troops, and lascannons haven't been shooting your Wraithlords.

How exactly are lascannons not shooting your Wraithlords? Also, that's a massive investment in points, three EML+BL Lords go for just under 500, though you could drop some weapons and thus cost, not to mention the 365 that the Avvy and Eldrad net you. Putting close to 900 points in those models seems like free pickings to me, and you'd have scarcely an army for the Avatar to make fearless, or the Seer to cast spells on. Not only that, but I'm finding the best spot for the WL is generally somewhere in cover with a good angle at range, using them to stand in front of a model who has to be in the thick of your force is just asking them to take bullets. I'd be very surprised if most competitive armies out there weren't done with them in 2 turns, 3 max.

I don't think the important part is getting the Avatar turn one, just that he can indeed be gotten, and if I was your opponent taking down those Lords would net me a massive points advantage and take away your hardest and best long range fire power (as taking up the three Heavy slots means no Falcons or Fire Prisms). Try it out and let us know, in no way am I convinced it's a good build though.

Don't forget the 3 WL + Avatar is 9 kill points and a lot of VPs.

They don't take objectives.

Triple strike, they're out!

Stelek- Dude, we're not playing 5th edition yet. And everything powerful is a lot of VPs.

As for the WL survivability, at least one would definitely go down per turn vs, competitive armies. After one goes down in turn one though, the return fire from the other 7-10 heavy weapons should reduce the enemy's hitting power as well. And I would definitely put the WLs moving through cover on the way in, Fortuned if possible. In that state, they should be a little harder to kill.

As for "lascannons not shooting [the] Wraithlords", I certainly didn't say that the weren't shooting _anything_: The lascannons aren't shooting the wraiths if they're shooting the Fortuned Avatar- that's what I'm saying. Although I would prefer them to be shooting the Wraithlords, of course.

And just to make things clear, I'm not sure that it's a good build either. I had trouble against it one time, and want to know how it works. Normally, I play mech and believe in mobility as the big winner in every 40K game. but I'm really trying to learn how to use footsloggers better for 5th. This extreme seems like a good way to learn the pros and cons of all footslogger Eldar armies. I'm not even going to use bikes. Haven't done that in a looooong time.

gdurant wrote:

Stelek, I wish I could quit you.

Seriously though. I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked for being off topic not to mention the sniping and ad homanims.

I quoted gdurant for example, though this reply is not properly directed at him, but to everyone reading this thread. Sorry this comment is a page late.

This has been a useful thread, while admittedly Off Topic. We need to have this discussion, because the doctrines of decency and tolerance must win through and be seen to win through.

Please remember that a troll is known by his manners not by his intellect, I have pressed ahead against the concensus flow for many years in a polite and logical manner, and from time to time have encountered trolling. The key is NEVER to get upset. Posts on the internet usually sound a lot crabbier than intneded, so if you are getting genuinely crabby it shows through a whole lot. Stelek or anyone else, is not obliged to agree with you, me, us, the concensus, maths or anything; it is not a requirement to be accepted here.

I dont think Stelek opened the thread by 'trolling' he just thought contrary to the concensus. However the counterpoint arguements and returns from Stelek eventually get heated. It is not all his own fault, it is too easy to see a counterpoint arguement as an attack, and it is very easy to take an arguement that you consider poor and assume the person who posted it is stupid.

I want to highlight here, that while 40K has done a good job in dumbing down the hobby, wargaming is still one of the higher IQ groups by hobby base (historical wargamers are second only to astronomers). Very very few persons here, if any, will be much below average smarts, and I would not include Stelek in this number. I wouldnt even like to attempt to work out who is.

Stelek needs to grow up, and not reply to baiting towards him, let alone bait others, but there is NO EXCUSE to wish him ill. Is it really morally worthwhile saying that they hate someone because of what the post here.

Let us assume, purely for the point of the example, that Steleks posts are wholly inaccurate and illogical, if that in itself angers anyone the person with the problem is the person angry. Get angry about crime, the senseless things you read in the newspapers, politics, religion even (though it is best to keep those last two off the boards), but dont get angry about Eldrad Ulthran- he ain't worth it. If you are angry because someone thinks an obviously decent unit sucks, or an obviously sucky unit is 'da bomb' they dont have a problem. You have.

Noone has any excuse to be angry. The only time you can afford to be angry here about this hobby is if you are robbed of your miniatures or the victim of someone who cheated at a tourney, and with GW itself, sure bring that here, but even then you wont be angry at Dakka, just venting with us to help share the steambath.

Stelek has some growing up to do, but he is not the only one, and many times he starts posting in a polite manner and is only responding to baiting against him, or what your be read as baiting against him. Let us keep this civil.

I guess I'd also like to point out that, as people on the internet for a while, I'm guessing you can count the number of people with whom you have argued that changed their minds on one hand. Forum debates don't happen to change the mind of the other side, they occur to demonstrate to the onlookers who has the better argument.

In some situations, the opposing view is in such a minority, is so entrenched, yet is clearly incapable of convincing very many people of his point. In those cases, make your brief rebuttal, point them to other threads where it's been hashed, and then walk away!

On the internet, everybody is more certain of their point, whether about the nature of God or if Eldrad is a good unit, then are dying martyrs in real life.

I for one have enjoyed this thread above all others recently on Dakka.

I don't play with or have any interest in using an Eldar army list. My Eldar opponents in the local metagame don't really use special characters either, this disagreement is of trivial tactical use for me actually at this point in my gaming experience.

I love this thread for the dynamics of communication going on within it. I agree with those who believe that Stelek started off alright, went quite wrong and has come back around to being a better poster (all of these in the 'manner' of posting, not technical details). Technically as i said, I'm not really interested in the tactical discussion. For those who have made their disagreement to the WAY an argument was formed by attacking the arguer personally... shame on you. Be at least big enough to insult the arguer with BETTER logic or tactics, not slams.

For those who have read the thread and eeked out the tactical details they need despite the tone and petty posts... I am sorry I'm wasting your spce here without any on topic (of the tactics) discussion!

I like the fact that both sides, or even more than 2 sides are represented. The way you represent your own character or morality is totally up to you though and I see no point in putting that into a tactical discussion... my opinion of course.

Thanks again to all the posters who have cooperated, carried on and those who have come about to the discussion & recovered from personal feelings dominating thier comments. It has made the thread a good lesson for me, but without having ANYTHING to do with Eldrad or Avatars!

If this is what we're talking about ...

H.B.M.C. wrote:You guys need to look at the bright side of this.

Dakka tollerates differences in opinion! You try to post an opinion at Warseer and people yell at you over your 'tone' and how 'cheesy' you are. You try to defend yourself and get warned by mods for 'not playing nice'. It's pathetic. Here the competative player rules supreme, and we're allowed to argue out our views on various strategies. Be thankful for that.

(edit) We could be different. We could be Warseer. And no one here wants that.

BYE

Agreed. I honestly find that hard to believe (Warseer editing honest opinion), but I'll accept it at face value. I certainly find Warseer generally bland.

there is a reason dakka is the only site with tactics threads worth reading, and people like stelek are a big part of that.

yes, people correcting Stelek does make for good tactics threads

Yep, it does. Pot.

Conceal is expensive these days. I can have 3 guardian squads w/ a tank busting weapon/ or anti troop weapon (or a EML as a happy medium) for 300pts. If I want conceal I only get two squads. If oyur just going to take scatter lasers are you better off with DA's?

These are questions that pooped up after I played a couple of games with the combo in question. They did well against chaos, blood angels, and I tied gun line guard. I utterly lost against swarm nids and orks.

The formation can't take hordes head on, it's also not fast enough to redeploy.