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That doesn't sound "clever" to me!

Polonius wrote:

bigchris1313 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Better get your Will in order then and pay for that funeral. Oh, and take out Life Insurance.

Now that he's already laid out that he's planning to kill himself, isn't that a touch unethical, if not illegal?

I'm not sure there's a life insurance policy out there that you can buy that pays out for suicides.

Actually most, if not all, do cover suicide after two years. I think it's due to restrictions on the time frame in which they can fight the payout...

So you can take out life insurance, commit suicide and make your family rich.

You just need to plan ahead two years.

Nice.

DeathGod wrote:

brassangel wrote: As the separation occurred in WFB (Daemons, Beasts, and Warriors), so will it be in 40k (Daemons, Undivided, Legions). A good source informed me that a legion specific codex will be on the way, just not soon.

Heading this one off at the pass:

Yes, H.B.M.C. and Abadabadoobaddon and all you other angry-that-they-nerfed-my-broken-codex people, yes, we know you doubt the coming of legions codexes. We know, you've told us a bazillion times. Leave the poor kid alone.

That wasn't a very nice thing to say!

That could just as easily have been:

Yes Deathgod, JohnHwangDD, and all you other most-faithful-of-faithful-all-that-came-before-was-broken-but-now-that-Jervis-is-on-the-job-it-will-be-the-very-definition-of-awesome-and-balance people, yes, we know you know as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow that Legion codices are for sure on the way (just not too soon!)..

We know, you've told us a bazillion times.

Right?

ubermosher wrote:Hate to tell you, but there's a reference to Space Marines (vanilla marines, not DA/BA) having the disadvantage of Combat Squads in a battle report in the 5th ed rule book hobby section.

There, fixed your typo for you...

Silverwarrior88 wrote:I will kill myself if the codex gets combat squads.. I hate that rule.

Don't forget to YouTube it for all of us.

DeathGod wrote:So you got to be clever in your suicide, like that guy in ER who "fell" off his roof and "just happened" to impale himself on a 3" pipe.

Better yet, attach a couple JATO rockets to your car...

man, that story *never* gets old

And definitely be sure to YouTube that!

Having sold indemnity policies and AD&D's for several years, trust me, there are many without the fine print and detailed specifics. There are, in fact, some that are so simple it's scary. The reason the insurance companies can take that risk? Most sensible people plan ahead, and care about their investments for the future; concerning themselves with the emotional stress they would burden their family with by doing something irrational (like committing suicide) as opposed to hoping to give them a little cash. Since 99% of suicides are statisically the result of spur of the moment decisions in high-stress situations, (many of which are directly related to anti-depressants or other drugs), the company isn't going to lose out. Sensible people plan for good things in their life, and the lives of those around them. Suicide doesn't help anyone. People who think irrationally typically don't plan for things like insurance, so it's highly unlikely that an insurance provider will be stuck with many of those bills, if at all. Insurance companies aren't suddenly standing to lose millions of dollars because people are going to start ritual suicide as a method of investment.

While there are many that have fine print so explicit that it's almost impossible to manipulate, there are others on the exact opposite end of the spectrum. There are even those that require a doctor simply sign off on the claim, and the policy, not the medical practitioner, define the terms of "accidental death."

Now, since I have completely wasted a lot of people's time, I will get back on subject for the three people still reading.

Only not really, because I'm going to talk about Chaos a little bit first...

From a balance perspective, the Chaos Codex functions beautifully (at least, in all games I've watched/read about/played in). It simply doesn't have rules for Legion-specific armies. That doesn't make it a bad, or underpowered book. There is absolutely nothing that makes it any less playable than the Eldar, Orks, or Daemons. Technically, Legion-only armies are still playable under the new Codex, they just come with restrictions. Most of the current Chaos Space Marines are newer recruits anyway, if I'm not mistaken, probably picked up during one of Abaddon's many crusades (hence the balanced, myriad of choices available to the army).

With a perfectly playable army which currently contains more variance and available options than any other in the game, and the promise (or rumored promise) of a Legion 'dex down the road, there's absolutely no justification for the type of whining that exists regarding said Codex. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but from the facts perspective, it makes no sense.

I will be interested to see, following the upcoming Space Marine Codex, whether or not they axe the rumored Space Wolves project that was supposed to be due December/January. They are wildly different from a Codex Chapter, I suppose, but it seems that the IG dex (due 2009) could benefit a lot of people by moving closer to now.

Any ideas how the Force Organization of the Space Marines will differ?

DeathGod wrote:Yes, H.B.M.C. and Abadabadoobaddon and all you other angry-that-they-nerfed-my-broken-codex people, yes, we know you doubt the coming of legions codexes. We know, you've told us a bazillion times. Leave the poor kid alone.

*sigh*

I don't care that they nerfed the army. They can turn it into the most hoplessly inept list in the entire game for all I care. What I care about is that they made Chaos boring whilst eliminating all the various different armies you could make, reducing them to 'counts as'. So please Death God, for the eight-hundred-billionth time, it's got nothing to do with power and everything to do with flavour.

BYE

I agree with H.B.M.C. completely, GW continues to emphasize just how different blood angels, space wolves and dark angels are from ultramarines and the other 'codex' chapters while saying all the legions of chaos are identical with some tiny variations.

As anyone who knows any fluff at all will tell you, ALL the space marine chapters and ALL the chaos legions are quite different from eachother, both from a history perspective and operational perspective, so the fact that GW has decided to dumb down chaos marines into one codex should offend everyone in the 40k community.

I should also say that changing eldar into one codex was wrong as well.

Maybe i am just jealous of the space marine players but after the crap i have to play with in the chaos marine codex its justified.

WarsmithMorgoth wrote:I agree with H.B.M.C. completely, GW continues to emphasize just how different blood angels, space wolves and dark angels are from ultramarines and the other 'codex' chapters while saying all the legions of chaos are identical with some tiny variations.

Every single legion is no more! Gw just cramped abaddons warbands in a dex.

As anyone who knows any fluff at all will tell you, ALL the space marine chapters and ALL the chaos legions are quite different from eachother, both from a history perspective and operational perspective, so the fact that GW has decided to dumb down chaos marines into one codex should offend everyone in the 40k community.

CSM had never some legion dex. Gathered together all the time.

I should also say that changing eldar into one codex was wrong as well.

Maybe i am just jealous of the space marine players but after the crap i have to play with in the chaos marine codex its justified.

A legion dex would do ? If you got ONE and loyalists FIVE, then you're happy ???

One chaos legion codex with all 8 legions would be fine by me. The problem is that no where in the timetable for future releases through 2009 is it mentioned that this will happen.
Look at bell of lost souls if you want to see the timetable i'm refering to.

Waiting years and years for rules for iron warriors is just garbage. Chaos legion players have gotten used to having rules for their armies and GW pulling the carpet out from under them is BS.

Its very apparent that space marines are the only army GW cares about, but then again i hear that GW sells more space marines than any other army and since GW is publicly traded, money is their primary concern.

edited out a long standing disagreement on a previous codex that has been beaten to death with each side firmly entrenched and I don't want to pull this too OT.

My apologies.

Ok,IW lost their IA rules. Same goes for NL,WB,AL! CSM is fixed on BL and cult (WE,DG,EC,TS) today. :S

Others have also bad times: RG ,IH, SA had a short existence with background an rules. Last SM dex smurfed them all.


Compared to cult armies, IW are underrepresented at rules and minis. Hampers not many to play IW .

I just wanted to give H.B.M.C. some love cause he seems to be the only voice of reason when it comes to how crappy the chaos marine codex is compared to the last one.

I will still hold out for my legion rules.

If their making it that if you take 'this HQ' you get 'such and such rules and FOC'

I wouldn't be surprised if they make the different codex's like they did the Armageddon dex. that way if there's some fluke in the marines rules they can fix it by replacing the codex and all the marine army's would follow. Streamlining all the marine army's making them easier to follow and easier for new army's to be picked up. Essentially pissing off the rest of us.

neofright wrote:Okay so let's see -

Word Bearers - lots of daemons - that is accomplished through the use of lesser and greater daemons. Granted they aren't as good as they used to be, but it isn't about the power, it is about the choices.

Death Guard - I have the option of 2 different troops choices which follow nurgle. I still have T5, FnP, I can use lesser and greater daemons, my basic troops can still run in groups of 7 with double plasma.

World Eaters - I have the option of 2 different kinds of khorne worshipping marines - I can still use greater and lesser daemons... I have lost chain axes and my daemons are no longer all power weapon wielding space marines, oh but it isn't about power, it is about fluff.

Iron Warriors - I can take infiltrating heavy weapons, 9 obliterators or 3 tanks. It still fits in theme, but it isn't about that it is about them not being broken (and I played the brokenness).

I have to respond to this as well now that i think about it.

Word bearers - demagogues and dark apostles with cursed crozius are also a part of their fluf, not just daemons. They are based on their crazed devotion to the chaos gods.

Death Guard - Plague marines AND Plague Terminators combined with actual Nurgle daemons as part of the army, the last codex succeded in this, the new does not.

World Eaters - need terminators and berzerkers along with daemons of khorne

Thousand Sons - need terminators and thousand son marines along with tzeentch daemons

Emperors Children - MORE than just noise marines need the god specific daemons and termies as well.

Night Lords - lighting fast attack and fear, need special rules for these things like making bikes and raptors troop choices or something

Iron Warriors - Servo Arms, bionics, large barrages with artillery and lots of heavy weapons and special siege rules for specific scenarios and NO daemons.

Alpha legions - need rules for their infiltration abilities maybe taking a looted vehicle or something similar, the old cultist rules were really cool.

Oh God-Emperor. Not this again! Yeeaaargh!

*Flings himself off a roof, impaling himself on a 3' spike.*

Hey I edited mine out.

I'm a voice of reason?

Cool!

BYE

In before the OT lock-down.

ubermosher wrote:In before the OT lock-down.

Is that the kind of thread this is going to be?

Ok:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

DeathGod wrote:Yes, H.B.M.C. and Abadabadoobaddon and all you other angry-that-they-nerfed-my-broken-codex people, yes, we know you doubt the coming of legions codexes. We know, you've told us a bazillion times. Leave the poor kid alone.

*sigh*

I don't care that they nerfed the army. They can turn it into the most hoplessly inept list in the entire game for all I care. What I care about is that they made Chaos boring whilst eliminating all the various different armies you could make, reducing them to 'counts as'. So please Death God, for the eight-hundred-billionth time, it's got nothing to do with power and everything to do with flavour.

BYE

Agreed.

I have decided to retire my chaos army for 5th ed. Not because of any power issues, but because my Chaos army is now just a generic Space Marine army. I already own Space Marines, I don't need another copy of the same army. If you only play one or the other, your probably won't have the same problem as those of us that own both.

You either get IT, or you don't.

Death God doesn't.

Before I get going, let me first say, HBMC, that I like you (as much as any anonymous person can like any other anonymous person in this virtual virtuosity they call internet forums). Just wanted to get that out there so you, and bystanders, know that this isn't a personal attack by any means...

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm a voice of reason?

Cool!

BYE

No, you're not.

Or maybe you are. Who knows.

That being said, you (and the rest of the new-chaos-is-boring crowd) get lumped into a group with the damn-GW-for-nerfing-my-broken-army crowd because your arguments don't pass muster. There is nothing, fluffwise, that you can read that can't be represented by the new Chaos codex. Nothing. You want to play demon heavy Word Bearers? With a Dark Apostle? Go right ahead. Take an undivided lord, name him "Dark Apostle Bob," add 15 units of 5 demons, a greater demon to explode out of some poor unsuspecting non-power-fist-wielding aspiring champion and you're good to go.

You want to play an Iron Warriors army? Knock yourself out! Convert up a defiler to look like a basilisk, rock your vindicator and a unit of Obliterators, model your chaos space marines and terminators with a ton of bionicky looking appendiges, and convert up a demon prince to look like a wicked robocop 1 bad guy robot on crack. Voila, Iron Warriors.

All perfectly possible, all would be beautiful representations of their chosen military muse. Or is that not what you're talking about? If you're (again, not YOU specifically, but the chaos-is-boring group) complaining about not being able to demon bomb power weapon wielding bloodletters and rending daemonettes, or if you're complaining about not being able to field 4 pie plates and 9 obliterators, you're not talking about the list being boring, you're talking about the list being NERFED.

If you're complaining about the new Chaos codex being boring, you're really complaining about one of two things. First, you might be saying that you have too little imagination to think of interesting ways to represent what you've read/seen/heard about/imagined/etc. Or you are really saying that you hate the new list cause the list you used to run/your tactics/your CCG-style lock combo/etc got nerfed and you don't want to sound like an donkey-cave powergamer when complaining about it. If your argument is that the lack of legion specific rules like we saw in chaos 3.5 makes the new codex boring, you belong in this second group.

It may be harsh, but them's the honest truth. I respect your right to your opinion, but your just as wrong as Hillary thinking national health care is a good idea (and I respect her right to her opinion as well).

By your method then, we don't need a chaos codex either since all that could be proxied by the SM codex as well.

Deathgod:

Using a legitimately debatable political point to show something is obvious ("national health care is bad") really doesn't help your point. In fact, it makes anybody that was willing to give you some slack realize that you confuse opinion with fact. So, you lose a ton of points for your closing.

Second, HBMC represents an extreme viewpoint, and you know that. You also know he's not whining about the nerf (does anybody really think the current chaos book is weak?). Yes, we're all tired of hearing about it. But sometimes a point is a point: there is less difference, both in tersm of background and how they played in 3.5, between Dark Angels and Ultramarines compared to Iron Warriors and World Eaters, but the loyalists have codices while CSM does not.

I agree that the new codex is a pretty decent book and does a good job of allowing some interesting builds out of one list. I think HBMC's point is that chaos gets one list, while loyalists get five, and there is far more room and range for chaos.

As for boring: special rules are the spice of wargaming. Little, almost silly rules like Wraithsight and "it's dark in dere" add a ton of flavour and a mild sense of balance, while the Ork book is full of rules representing unreliabel tech, looted gear, etc.

Additionally, pardon me for saying this, but weren't demonbombs fun? Or infiltrating alpha legion? Or biker heavy night lords? Call my crazy, but there are a few builds that were left on the cutting room floor that while unbalanced, were a ton of fun. GW cut them, instead of making them work. Sure, given the new infiltrate they don't work the same, and the New Daemon book is all bomb, but this lists aren't playable any more. Iron Warriors had tons of potential, and it was left on the table.

WarsmithMorgoth wrote:Waiting years and years for rules for iron warriors is just garbage. Chaos legion players have gotten used to having rules for their armies and GW pulling the carpet out from under them is BS.

Oh, please. Iron Warriors didn't have special rules in all of 2nd Edition. They were just a paint scheme, same as now. Whining about losing your precious 4th Pie Plate and 3x3 Obliterators as Elites engenders no sympathy. Expecting GW to foolishly reinstate your broken IW rules is nought but folly and childishness.

Pretending that the half-edition rulebook with most powerful rules is somehow definitive is pretty laughable when you start carrying across all armies. Should all GK Terminators revert to the RT-era rules (all of them would be Level 4 Pskyers). Should Eldar Warp Spiders get back their Large (Apocalypse) Flamer templates? How about Guardians getting back 24" Lasblasters with the Save Modifiers? And don't forget the old Space Wolf Termies... I think that's pretty much the definition of the words "Codex escalation".

Crimson Devil wrote:I have decided to retire my chaos army for 5th ed. Not because of any power issues, but because my Chaos army is now just a generic Space Marine army.

If you consider Daemons and Cult Marines to be generic, that's news to me.

Again, you ignore the complaints that are made and just go off on the old power lists...

The fact is, I played Alpha Legion and there is almost 0 difference now between my Alpha Legion and a Loyalist force. That is a problem, especially when I have a loyalist SM army.

I wouldnt care if my CSM army was nerfed, its just that its lost its character. Sure, make the basilisk cost a thousand points, but as long as we still have the option to take it it allows greater variation in armies. Chaos cultists were weak as hell, but still cool, and made your army unique. Now we're basically Vanilla Marines.

a greater demon to explode out of some poor unsuspecting non-power-fist-wielding aspiring champion and you're good to go.

No, that rule was interesting, and as such doesnt exist anymore. Now Daemons basically just deepstrike.

you're not talking about the list being boring, you're talking about the list being NERFED.

Oh, so the fact that Bloodletters, from Khorne, the god of violence are the same as Horrors, the god of magic means nothing? Or the fact that there is no variation of any kind in daemons anymore?

Fail.

EDIT: PS: Why do you demonize national Health care? The US appears to be the only 1st world Country that doesnt have a similar system. Its sad to see families getting another mortgage to pay for surgery and the like. It isnt as if you could lump on unneccesary surgery on top, or use it for plastic surgery. And yet many of you seem to think its a bad thing. Do you work for a health insurance company or the government?

DeathGod - you're right in that you can theme an army perfectly adequately using the new CSM codex, but I do think that given the new SM codex is 144 pages (50% bigger than CSM), you have to wonder why CSM didn't get a book this big that could have put in all the extra legion-specific fluff/options that people want.

P.S. Coming from a country which HAS national health care, I quite like the fact that I can take my baby boy or my wife to the doctors/hospital if they get sick without having to worry how much its going to cost me.

Just a thought.