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Don't let 'em get ya down, Ork town grot.

I believe in that list you describe.

It's done very well for itself in 5E.

I can see that 180 orcs is always going to be troublesome for opponents to chew through. They won't break quickly and they will sure occupy the whole table top. You can deploy the army like the spokes of a wheel with the tail of each squad close to a Big Mek with the force field gizmo and the whole army will have 5+ cover saves. You can field Ghazghkull and ride a double waargh and you still have enough points for other things.

I'm wondering though if the all infantry horde is going to offer much tactical dimension to game play. Just because things are possible doesn't always make them interesting.

Not to mention in tournament play, needing to paint near 200 models! Yeeks!

I probably won't go the route of painting another 60 Boyz at this point. But, at 1500 points, my opponents are having a hard time against 109 in my list.

One mission that I've found difficult to win, but easy to tie is where we each have one objective in our own deployment zone. If Snikrot comes out too early, I've pretty much lost all chances at going for a win.

I do agree that the Orks can be a very shooty army which shocks a lot of folks. Assault for me is just clean up or a counter assault.

Lots of buggies, however, I'm not sold on. Easy Kill Points.

Overall, building the Orks (or any list) means building a list that can be competitive when playing any mission (as opposed to building vs. MEQ, Eldar, Godzilla etc... . This is proving tough in 5th edition. Playing 180 Boyz is one build that seems to do this, but you have to play very, very fast (in a tourney setting). For my army, my Orks really shine on turns 4+. My opponents have already done their worse and I still have a ton of firepower left. They just get whittled down. If I can't get past turn 4, I won't have the ability to win big. I may win or draw, but if there become multiple objectives in 5th edition tourneys, I need every turn to play. This is probably the main reason I won't run 180 Boyz.

And yes, I agree about the Shokk Attack Gun. It's been a blast to play and usually does very well for me.

I have the models to do the 180 ork horde (been collecting greenies since the tail end of second edition) and they're all painted to a reasonable standard (I could do with inking some of my more basic paintjobs from 10 years ago).

But I hate running the horde. It's tedious, it can only really do one thing, and it hurts my lower back. I'm looking for ways to run orks that are interesting- using battlewagons to transport biggish mobs looks fun.

Da Boss wrote:I have the models to do the 180 ork horde (been collecting greenies since the tail end of second edition) and they're all painted to a reasonable standard (I could do with inking some of my more basic paintjobs from 10 years ago).

But I hate running the horde. It's tedious, it can only really do one thing, and it hurts my lower back. I'm looking for ways to run orks that are interesting- using battlewagons to transport biggish mobs looks fun.

lol yeah, I stopped running hordes as I got older. Pain in the body.

Might I suggest you guys mix a little exercise into your, otherwise sedentary lifestyles. It might help you better endure the grueling RTT scene. Your low back issues will probably clear right up.

Hah. I do sit ups and press ups every day, and I swim about 1K twice a week. I also run everywhere most of the time. I'm very fit. I just don't like having to spend that long stooped over the table.

Try mixing in hyperextensions, deadlifts and maybe some lowrows just to help out that weak back of yours.

Darrian13 wrote:Try mixing in hyperextensions, deadlifts and maybe some lowrows just to help out that weak back of yours.

Could be his height, as well. I run an ork horde and at 6'2" most game tables are just too low for me to stand at hours....

cheers

Cheers for the advice.
I think my core strength probably nowhere near my cardiovascular fitness, which could be part of the problem.

Horde is still annoying to run though .

LOL, I have always wanted to steer gaming threads into fitness threads. Who says the two are always incompatable?

... back to defunking the orkhammer myth now...
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yea, the thing with buggies is that they are really only tank-shock engines, I mean, I played a 500pt game where the greensikin player had 3 buggies and a mob of 20 or so. My eldar buddy played the same list. Over the two games the buggies actually shot 4 times, and they all tried to shoot at least 3 times in each game (then were relegated to tank-shocking my devs or my buddies reapers into uselessness.) rokits are for riding not shooting, thats something the players in my area have realized, and yes, a guardian doing a heroic stand against a buggy can in fact make it explode, lolz. Also, there will likely be a lot more peices of terrain laying around a table with the way 5th changed things, which means buggies need to be really carecull trying to go through (they break easy) or waste the time to go around.

I also played against lootas in that game, but orky shootery is on par with that of a Stormtrooper (star wars), so while they are dangerous, they can also do next to nothing, and have a good chance of doing so due to squad size.

just some things I've noticed

I don't use TL Rokkits on my warbuggies.

Thus, my warbuggies fire alot more than 4 shots.

I can put out 27 S5 shots and 135 S7 shots at 48".

What's your army do?

... thats alot of shots, but how many actually shoot? and is that just on the buggies, or the whole army? (I have yet to try to count how many shots my marines could put out if my footlogger safh list could put out at full strength, with everyone within range to fire their max, may have to try that)

You can't tank shock with buggies because thay are not tanks.

When my army faces your Orks, it quickly acrues 9KP's for killing your 9 A:10 open topped death traps. Those 9 easy KP's equal the KP total of my entire Ork army. Good times! BTW, I have upto 135 S:7 shots in my army too.

Darrian13 wrote:When my army faces your Orks, it quickly acrues 9KP's for killing your 9 A:10 open topped death traps. Those 9 easy KP's equal the KP total of my entire Ork army. Good times! BTW, I have upto 135 S:7 shots in my army too.

Quite amusing, really.

I for one have no issues fielding 180 well-painted orks

Might help I've been painting the bums for 20 years. Literally. I just now got to 180.

Call it auspicious if you'd like. Maybe it's karma. Either way. I ain't complaining.

Wildstorm wrote:So has 5th turned into rock/paper/scissor armies?

Everything else has been answered pretty well so I thought I'd just comment on this question.

Competitive games at low points levels tend towards extreme armies and paper/rock/scissors. There’s nothing new about this, at 600 points you’re best off focussing your army on one thing, whether it’s ork boyz, a couple of carnifex or a land raider or whatever, and just hoping the other guy didn’t bring anything capable of killing that.

As games increase in points value people are able to take a wider range of guns, but there always has been, and probably always will be, some element of paper/rock/scissors in the game.

Even then, however, it still seems to be rock, paper, scissors. Spamming many of one type of unit does better than having a diverse mix of many types of unit because a specialist list (i.e. Triple Landraider, Nidzilla, Ork Horde) quickly exhausts countering elements in a generalist list (one land raider, one devastator squad, one assault squad, one terminator squad, etc).

Slugga Orks (spammed models) is arguably better than Dark Eldar Raider Squadrons (spammed mech/heavy weapons) is arguably better than Nidzilla (spammed TMCs) is arguably better than Slugga Orks. They each field an exhaustive and therefore un-counterable amount of a certain viable unit.

On the other hand, any of these lists is better than generic Marines equipped with generic weapons. Roughly 1/3 of the generic Marines will be affective against each list, and 2/3 will stand around holding their puds while the opposing army annihilates that 1/3 of their force and leisurely strolls through the ineffective 2/3.

Wait, are you saying Hurr = Puds?

I think you just insulted Puds everywhere, kind sir!

After reading this thread I think a lot of the nay-sayers are under the wrong impression of the new Orks. The new Ork style that has been creeping up in tourneys(and won the Invitational at Adepticon) are shooty armies.

Orks are no longer the army that barrels at you intent on HTH. Now they wither you down with an extreme weight of shots and mop up in HTH.

30-45 lootas is horrendous to fight. And sure Orks hit on 5's but a mob of 30 throwing down shootas and big shootas still does a lot of damage.

Orks are going to be a tough cookie in 5th. I predict them to win Vegas.

Wait, are you saying MY kind of Ork army is ze best?

LOL!

Well, I like 4 pklaw trukk tank busta squads, 3xlootas, 3xwarbuggies. If I run into LR, and I can't kill 'em...well, they can't kill me either. lol

It's a crazy amount of shooting.

Hold on, need my 2nd brick...no, this is just for this unit, why?

@Flatlander boss, If your Orks are painted up to the same standard as your traitor guard, that is a beautiful bunch of Orks. I had the pleasure of facing you at the Gladiator with my Mech Eldar. Your army was beautiful. I really loved the baneblade.

When my army faces your Orks, it quickly acrues 9KP's for killing your 9 A:10 open topped death traps.

Don't you mean 3 KPs? If you're facing 9 buggies, it's going to be 3 quads of 3. Three units, 3 KPs.

He was raging at me, but I hope he did.

Unless I can run 3x3x3, in which case I'd run 3x3x9 lol. 27 buggies ftw!

sourclams wrote:Even then, however, it still seems to be rock, paper, scissors. Spamming many of one type of unit does better than having a diverse mix of many types of unit because a specialist list (i.e. Triple Landraider, Nidzilla, Ork Horde) quickly exhausts countering elements in a generalist list (one land raider, one devastator squad, one assault squad, one terminator squad, etc).

Slugga Orks (spammed models) is arguably better than Dark Eldar Raider Squadrons (spammed mech/heavy weapons) is arguably better than Nidzilla (spammed TMCs) is arguably better than Slugga Orks. They each field an exhaustive and therefore un-counterable amount of a certain viable unit.

On the other hand, any of these lists is better than generic Marines equipped with generic weapons. Roughly 1/3 of the generic Marines will be affective against each list, and 2/3 will stand around holding their puds while the opposing army annihilates that 1/3 of their force and leisurely strolls through the ineffective 2/3.

As you increase the points level you increase your range of guns and gain some kind of counter to each type of specialist army. But you are right, P/R/S is always there, and is probably unavoidable in the current 40K ruleset.

It’s my number one reason for keeping to friendly games. Too many times I set up for competitive game only to know the result before deployment, because either me or my opponent had gotten lucky in army creation and bulked up on something the other guy couldn't take out.

Perhaps this kind of misunderstanding is the core of the "I hate killpoints" problem. lol

Stelek is pretty much going to get shots with his big shoota buggies all the time. He can move 12" and fire 36". Why wouldn't he get most of the shots? And as far as you just blowing them up, I ask you with what? With your long range shooting? With your deep strikers? Because he is not going to just drive them right up to your rapid fire range like the rokkit buggies you see. 36"

In 4th ed I ran 4 skorcha buggies and 2 rokkit buggies, but I like rokkits. For 5th, I am considering stelek's buggy build and people are really being knee jerk if they ignore it.

I think people who are lamenting the "competitive" style of gaming should just realize that there is a great system for checking out your assumptions. Organize a big game, Apocalypse or otherwise, by personally choosing both armies for a good gaming experience. Then invite people over and roll for teams. If you cannot balance a game like this, then don't rant about game balance on the interwerbz.

@Biz, My Ork army has 120 shoota boyz that will be in range by turn 2. I also have 45 lootas that will be busy killing his lootas on turn 1-2 and then mopping up his mobile deathtraps on turn 3. I hope you agree that a range of 48 should be enough to find those buggies.

They will? Hmmm.

12" + 6" + D6" + 6 + 18" = maybe not, and if I'm running a refused flank, I certainly hope they aren't.

Besides, in a ork shooty vs ork shooty game, it really depends on the scenario and who gets to go first.

I know, I've won and lost against a list just like yours. I prefer mine, because if I get to go first I can first strike all of your lootas to death. You on the other hand, may not be so lucky since you have to rely on the lootas (aka luck) to kill my units.

You do know that going second against the Ork horde in many missions is what wins the game, yes?

It sounds as though it could really go either way here as both ork builds have both strong and weak points. It really does seem to boil down to turn choice and scenario.

However, I'm leaning more towards Stelek's corner as Darrian's repeated assumption that Buggy's are nothing more then "mobile deathtraps" hurts his credibility a bit.