5th Edition = Orkhammer 40k

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Darrian13**

@Virulent, it is not an assumption, it is experience. I have buggies. Would you like to buy them?

9 buggies cost 270 points they produce 15 S:5 hits aturn if they all can fire. That causes 10 wounds to MEQ and 3.3 dead marines a turn on average. Wow!

For 250 points I will take 30 shoota boyz that are far more survivable and are troops and, although have a shorter range, will be able to kill about the same number of marines on average. They will also be able to win close combat and be able to take objectives.

**Virulent**

Sorry, I don't own an Ork army myself, otherwise I might. I'm assuming since you hate them so much they're practically free? Could make some nice bits I suppose.

**Stelek**

I have 100 extra boyz, Darrian. Want to buy them?

Everyone's experience is different.

I prefer buggies because they shoot you from my board edge.

Ork boyz don't do that. Yes, they do other things, but they don't do that. In a loota heavy army, you are already standing off.

You can also stop other vehicles with buggies, which is very helpful in 5E where you cannot push my vehicles out of the way anymore--something that Ork armies will learn to fear when they get corralled into template heaven by a vehicle heavy army, and destroyed in short order.

Mech tau, mech IG, mech Sisters...they all can force you into pockets of 'zomg 25 hits'. This is horrible for Orks.

I'm sure you have some hidden tactic that you think will work wonders, but honestly--vehicles are very good, very hard to stop, and if you think you can stop a vehicle horde from overrunning your position AND killing you in a turn...well, I beg to differ.

Just curious really, why do you keep mentioning marines? It's not marines Orks have to worry about. It's everyone else. All the other armies kill tons of Marines with T4 and a 3+ save. At best, you get a 3+ save by pinning yourself. Else, you have T4 and a 4+ save.

It doesn't matter if you can kill marines if you die to everything else. Lootas are powerful, and hard to shift with a hundred orks in front of them--but that's just a serious problem for marines. For everyone else, they have a solution to what Orks do.

I don't know why you discount how good TL big shootas on buggies are, maybe you just see everything by itself. Or you are comfortable with 120 orks and don't think it's a liability to have big unwieldy 'template me please' squads.

Play your army, and let a 3 LR/3 Hellhound army shoot first. Tell us what's left of your army after. Lootas? Which kill the Hellhounds, then your troops are wiped by the LR and what's left? S7 vs AV14? Yes please.

Against my army, only the LR are threats and I'm not packed (especially not in spearhead, lol!) in tight enough to care if they get 3 orks or a buggy under the template.

You can call mobile firepower bad, and troops packed in good. I can't see it, I've played the Ork horde at least 20 times now with all of my armies and I think I've lost to it twice. I've won with my Ork army after I went from horde to mobile shooting a hell of a lot better.

Did you know that 2 Trukk squads of orks pretty well wipes out a 30 Ork boyz squad, and the 9 buggies and 3 loota squads kill 2 more? That's one turn, and I've killed alot of your 180 orks (which in 1750, you don't have if you have 3 full loota squads). In 1750, I can table all your troops choices in a turn.

This isn't a personal attack on you, Darrian. I'm just relating my experiences. If you relate yours, instead of speaking in generalities, maybe everyone can understand.

**Darrian13**

No I do not want to buy them. I have 180, where were you with this offer 6 months ago?

Your big shoota buggies are very inefficient at stopping vehicles due to their S:5 weapons. I guess you can mass fire a rhino into shakenness but so what?

If you think racing your vehicle heavy list into the teeth of my ork horde is a great atctic, then I need to play you.

I use MEQ's as the baseline for unit effectiveness because MEQ's are still the most popular lists seen. Maybe Utah is different, but I doubt it.

I have faced 6 armies so far with my Ork horde that fielded 3 pie plates each (4 IG and 2 marines). The KFF and 4+ cover has always done my army very well as I have tabled 3 of the 6 and convincingly defeated the other 3.

I have played against the 3 LR/3hh list and I tabled it. Week one of the current season So Cal GW league.

I have played my Orks a few less times than you but I have yet to lose or even have a close game.

If you are planning on assaulting my 30 man squads with your trukk squads, that is great. You may beat the first squad with your trukkboys but then the trukkboys die. Your combined 9 buggies and 45 lootas will average 18 dead orks a turn, not quite the 60 that you claim. (but I am only looking at the averages). My lootas will be targeting your lootas while you are shooting my boys. The 12 1/2 wounds I put on the loota squads will destroy one squad per turn. Most of my games are 2000 points, so please take the extra 250 points into account.

I don't take this as a personal attack from you. I really like this "kinder and gentler act of yours" I hope with continued practice it can become your normal persona. I find it very refreshing, if a little unexpected.

**Stelek**

I've driven Marines into hiding locally. I admit it.

4+ Cover save from the KFF? Why do you get that? The Codex says you get a 5+. What'd I miss? You get the 4+ cover save on vehicles, because it says you are obscured yes?

Sorry, been seeing that alot and I cannot for the life of me find the rules that support it.

I think you misunderstand how my army works against a horde ork army.

I will explain how I run it, and we'll see if it makes sense.

Your lootas are generally 6-8" in, because well it's a pita to deploy them further forward because that's where boyz go.

If you went first and are covering the whole board, I should be setup in a refused flank.

If I went first, I'm still setup in a refused flank.

So let's say I get to go first.

I move my warbuggies and my trukks forward. Well, not really forward...but just into position so you can't shoot me on turn 1 with your shootas. Call it the shuffle 24.1" away.

Buggies in front of trukks, so my trukks get saves from your shooting. It's not great, but it's something.

I tend to lock my trukks in so they can't go anywhere if they blow up, they cannot be assaulted, and my ork boyz will just get out behind the trukk if it's taken out.

I open fire on your Lootas with my Lootas, and my Warbuggies. Not only am I doing more damage than you do to me, but I have more units to fire with than you do.

You move forward. You run. Now you are a foot away from your lootas, more or less. There should now be one unit of lootas dead.

Now you fire. One of my loota units dies, or mostly dies. Or, you can take out 2 of my Trukks if you really want to.

Now it's time for the shoota horde to sit and shoot at me. I should still be out of range of them with everything but the Trukk boyz, whose only job is to go out and give two of your squads a thumping.

IF you shot at my lootas with your lootas, I have 4 trukk squads standing around. I suppose you could have fire rokkits at me and maybe blown one up. Not good odds really. So we'll just stick with you ran forward first turn.

My 2nd turn goes like this:

The 4 trukk squads suicide themselves into 2 of your squads. Those 2 squads are most likely dead now. I'm stuck out in the open.

I shoot another loota squad dead. I still have enough firepower to do it. (My 4 trukks are another 4 big shootas, btw.)

So now you have 2 units of orks and 1 loota unit left.

I've got 4 trukks, 9 buggies, a pair of loota squads, and 4 trukk boy squads standing around.

This is how it's gone. You can't waagh into my lootas, not yet. You can't ignore the trukk squads. If you don't shoot/assault them, they will do to you what charging orks do to non-charging orks.

I can move my trukks and my warbuggies to 36", and so long as my worthless grot squad is sitting in the back on my objective--I will control an objective, and in the end...you won't.

Turn 3, you remove one of my units with lootas. Possibly two more with shootas. Maybe a mass assault will take away all my trukk squads, but the problem is--if you shoot anything with your shootas, you will kill it and be unable to assault. You might be out of range. After all, trukks give me a long assault...toss in the waagh and my post combat consolidation, and getting away from 60 orks isn't difficult.

At any rate, what usually happens is:

Horde gets tabled.

I have a loota unit, my warbuggies, and my grots. Trukks usually survive, because they are the weakest thing in the army. You want to focus on KPs? Go ahead. I will kill you faster if you do. They are red herrings.

You have 9 KP, I think you said?

I lose 2x loota, 4x trukk squads, and you have to kill every single trukk to get +1 KP over me.

Just been my experience. My army looks frail, and it is. The problem I see is, you cannot kill enough of me with your limited targets before I kill you with my wider range of shooting available.

For example, when you have 4 lootas left--why fire another loota unit at it? You HAVE to. I can fire my warbuggies, and that will usually finish them off. If not, I'll fire a trukk at the last loota. I can still fire more units at your fire base, and I'm only 1/3 done with my shooting.

So I can kill more Orks than you can, that can effectively shoot me back on my primary shooting elements. Please note I am quite certain two trukk boyz squads will kill a thirty man boyz squad if I get the charge.

I could care less if you kill all 4 trukks and all 4 trukk squads. I will still table a ork horde by shooting it off the table. Then what?

Why don't you run my army vs your army in various missions, and see how it works? You should play someone as good as yourself, of course.

**Darrian13**

Stelek wrote:I've driven Marines into hiding locally. I admit it.

-Sure you have.

4+ Cover save from the KFF? Why do you get that? The Codex says you get a 5+. What'd I miss? You get the 4+ cover save on vehicles, because it says you are obscured yes?

-I wrote, "KFF and 4+ cover" you see terrain in 5th provides 4+ cover and I like to put my boyz in it as mauc as possible to help out with their 6+ saves.

Sorry, been seeing that alot and I cannot for the life of me find the rules that support it.

I think you misunderstand how my army works against a horde ork army.

-No, I have faced shooty mech lists before, yours is nothing special.

I will explain how I run it, and we'll see if it makes sense.

-Ok

Your lootas are generally 6-8" in, because well it's a pita to deploy them further forward because that's where boyz go.

-In Pitched Battle and Dawn of War yes, Spearhead no.

If you went first and are covering the whole board, I should be setup in a refused flank.

-Kinda hard to fit 45 lootas and 13 vehicles in 36 inches of deployment zone and impossible in Spearhead but ok. I hope that you are putting your lootas behind your vehicles, if so all I have to do is stun, immobilize or destroy your A:10 open topped deathtraps and I will negate your lootas until you can get unblocked.

If I went first, I'm still setup in a refused flank.

-See above for comments

And since you are set up first, I will deploy my lootas in such a way that at least one of your squads will be out of range of my lootas while all of my lootas will be in range of your lootas. If there is any terrain that blocks LOS, and 25% of it should, all the better for my boyz.

So let's say I get to go first.

I move my warbuggies and my trukks forward. Well, not really forward...but just into position so you can't shoot me on turn 1 with your shootas. Call it the shuffle 24.1" away.

Buggies in front of trukks, so my trukks get saves from your shooting. It's not great, but it's something.

I tend to lock my trukks in so they can't go anywhere if they blow up, they cannot be assaulted, and my ork boyz will just get out behind the trukk if it's taken out.

I open fire on your Lootas with my Lootas, and my Warbuggies. Not only am I doing more damage than you do to me, but I have more units to fire with than you do.

-See above comments regarding my deployment of lootas.

You move forward. You run. Now you are a foot away from your lootas, more or less. There should now be one unit of lootas dead.

Now you fire. One of my loota units dies, or mostly dies. Or, you can take out 2 of my Trukks if you really want to.

-Look at field, If any of your trukks are now blocking LOS for your lootas, the trukks get hit, otherwise it is the lootas on your exposed loota squad that I have in range of all my lootas. I then put 12 rokkits on your trukks and hit 4 times causing 3 pens and your trukks are no longer the threat to get off a coordinated round 2 assault on my boyz who will be looking to get in the cover that is available to them.

Now it's time for the shoota horde to sit and shoot at me. I should still be out of range of them with everything but the Trukk boyz, whose only job is to go out and give two of your squads a thumping.

IF you shot at my lootas with your lootas, I have 4 trukk squads standing around. I suppose you could have fire rokkits at me and maybe blown one up. Not good odds really. So we'll just stick with you ran forward first turn.

-No running for me in this turn thanks, just shooting.

My 2nd turn goes like this:

The 4 trukk squads suicide themselves into 2 of your squads. Those 2 squads are most likely dead now. I'm stuck out in the open.

-More like your 2 trukks that are mobile can rush a single squad that is not in cover and kill it while losing roughly 8 guys from one of the 2 squads.

I shoot another loota squad dead. I still have enough firepower to do it. (My 4 trukks are another 4 big shootas, btw.)

-See deployment of lootas again.

So now you have 2 units of orks and 1 loota unit left.

-No, 3 units of orks and 2 lootas, a mek with a KFF and klaw and warboss on foot.

I've got 4 trukks, 9 buggies, a pair of loota squads, and 4 trukk boy squads standing around.

-You have 2-3 trukks, 9 buggies, a piar of lootas(one of which is probably not in range of my lootas.) 3 1/3 trukkboyz.

-I shoot the second loota squad of yours and kill 8 if you are in cover otherwise 17.
I shoot both of the trukkboyz squads that are in the open with 2 of my boyz in cover killing the wounded squad and knocking the other to 4 models. My third squad moves up and shoots a trukk in range (hopefully the one alive with boyz still in it.) getting 3 glances and a rokkit pen. That deathtrap is now gone and the boys inside are out in the open.

-You have 1 full loota squad outside of range of my lootas, a loota squad at 7 models that may or may not have run off the table. 1-2 trukks, 9 buggies and 2 squads of boyz.

This is how it's gone. You can't waagh into my lootas, not yet. You can't ignore the trukk squads. If you don't shoot/assault them, they will do to you what charging orks do to non-charging orks.

-I am very happy with the game so far 4KP's to 2 and it will only get worse.

I can move my trukks and my warbuggies to 36", and so long as my worthless grot squad is sitting in the back on my objective--I will control an objective, and in the end...you won't.

Turn 3, you remove one of my units with lootas. Possibly two more with shootas. Maybe a mass assault will take away all my trukk squads, but the problem is--if you shoot anything with your shootas, you will kill it and be unable to assault. You might be out of range. After all, trukks give me a long assault...toss in the waagh and my post combat consolidation, and getting away from 60 orks isn't difficult.

-Do you move the lootas that are out of range of my lootas or do you shoot at boys in cover? YOur buggies still put 1o wounds on one of my squads and I save 3-5 of them depending on which squad. Do you charge the squad that is still in the open with the remainder of your trukkboyz? Maybe you do and get lucky and kill the squad but lose another in the process.

-I shoot up the last boyz squad of yours with my 2 squads that are still at full strength in cover. My lootas destroy your last 2 trukks and you have 1 1/2 loota squads and 9 buggies and some grots. So far I am not too impressed with your army and you went first.

At any rate, what usually happens is:

Horde gets tabled.

-Not if there is terrain on that table.

I have a loota unit, my warbuggies, and my grots. Trukks usually survive, because they are the weakest thing in the army. You want to focus on KPs? Go ahead. I will kill you faster if you do. They are red herrings.

You have 9 KP, I think you said?

I lose 2x loota, 4x trukk squads, and you have to kill every single trukk to get +1 KP over me.

Just been my experience. My army looks frail, and it is. The problem I see is, you cannot kill enough of me with your limited targets before I kill you with my wider range of shooting available.

-Fallacy.

For example, when you have 4 lootas left--why fire another loota unit at it? You HAVE to. I can fire my warbuggies, and that will usually finish them off. If not, I'll fire a trukk at the last loota. I can still fire more units at your fire base, and I'm only 1/3 done with my shooting.

So I can kill more Orks than you can, that can effectively shoot me back on my primary shooting elements. Please note I am quite certain two trukk boyz squads will kill a thirty man boyz squad if I get the charge.

I could care less if you kill all 4 trukks and all 4 trukk squads. I will still table a ork horde by shooting it off the table. Then what?

Why don't you run my army vs your army in various missions, and see how it works? You should play someone as good as yourself, of course.

-I think you should try some games with terrain and see how that affects your shooting lanes for your refused flank and see what happens when your opponent actually deploys correctly. I will play afriend of mine who does have an army like yours this week and I will let you know. Let me know what happens when you play with terrain and an opponent that plays shooty Ork horde not just assault Ork horde.

LMK

Thanks for the reply though. Now I better understand how you get things so messed up tacticly. Please keep replies on this hypothetical battle to the hypothetical battle, don't go changing your hypothetical army or its deploymet on me.

**Stelek**

Can you edit that so it's readable? Yes, cut and paste those quote markers!

Then I can take a looksee.

I'll take a pic of the usual terrain I play on in 5E this weekend. Then we can pichammer!

**Virulent**

lol. So much underlying sarcasm and venom it's crazy.

**Stelek**

Virulent wrote:lol. So much underlying sarcasm and venom it's crazy.

Not from me, actually.

**budro**

Both builds are useable and can win given a good player. Talking about what would and wouldn't happen in an entire game using mathhammer is rather useless. Odds on dice don't avg out during a single game, terrain is totally random, and with vehicles on the board terrain and LOS can change during the game anyway.

It's useless to post about which army would dominate the other. Until it's played out on the field it doesn't matter anyway. Or we could just invite these two to analyse all the match ups for the GTs, the players could go have a drink at the nearest pub while they figure out the winner. Why play when it's already determined by force selection anyway? /sarcasm

Buggies are useful. An army built around them is dangerous IMO, but definitely fun to play with. I perfer a more hybrid list with a strong core of foot troops, but that's just what works for me.

**Darrian13**

@Budro, you have a great idea! Stelek and I should do a play by play commentary at the GT's It could be like the old Saturday Night Live news bit "Point Counterpoint" I would play the part of Dan Ackroyd.

**Stelek**

I wanna be Dennis Miller!

**WC_Brian**

I like how Stelek is lets assume I go first. What happens when he goes second?

Can Steleks Lootas even see Darrians Lootas through all the Orks in between?

If not it sounds like Darrian gets to paste Steleks vehicles while Steleks Lootas just waste time shooting 5+ KFF Orks.

**Stelek**

I actually prefer to go second, Brian.

So I can setup an alpha strike on a loota unit, refuse a flank, and in general have an easier time of winning.

If he wants to do the two-step, I won't mind. I'll kill the Ork Boyz instead.

My Vehicles are actually pretty low to the ground, lower than the height of an Ork. Trukks are freebies to pretty much everyone.

Sounds like more negativity from someone who doesn't run Orks, did you want to correct my opinion?

**Darrian13**

I think Stelek and I have discussed this as far as we can on an online forum. Without actually playing this game out and me demonstrating how wrong he is, any further speculation is pointless.

I do like Budro's idea of play by play though.

**Stelek**

No no, you've got it all wrong.

We have to play so I can demonstrate how wrong you are!

**thehod**

There should be a new event at GTs/Adepticon: 40K Debates

We can have Darrian vs Stelek and Yak can be the moderator

I think it would be a very illuminating discussion

**Lorek**

I'd prefer them to play series of games, to help balance out any "luck" factor.

**Darrian13**

I would love to do it. You coming to Adepticon next year Stelek?

But, somehow Yak will probably have the best time moderating/commentating on it.

**budro**

What I'd like to see is a breakdown of the game and what the outcome is going to be BEFORE the game is played for all first round matchups are played and who the winner is going to be.

And then we'll see who does the better "analysis".

And it should definitely be in an SNL format.

**Stelek**

Darrian13 wrote:I would love to do it. You coming to Adepticon next year Stelek?

But, somehow Yak will probably have the best time moderating/commentating on it.

I do plan on it. Not sure what events I want to play in, and which ones I want to help judge.

**Democratus**

Darrian13 wrote:@Budro, you have a great idea! Stelek and I should do a play by play commentary at the GT's It could be like the old Saturday Night Live news bit "Point Counterpoint" I would play the part of Dan Ackroyd.

Jane, you ignorant slut!

**Darrian13**

God, I loved the old SNL. So good! There is NO WAY that that could get away with the scripts they used back then.

**WC_Brian**

Stelek wrote:
Sounds like more negativity from someone who doesn't run Orks, did you want to correct my opinion?

I see negativity = criticism in Stelek speak.

**WC_Brian**

Darrian13 wrote:I think Stelek and I have discussed this as far as we can on an online forum. Without actually playing this game out and me demonstrating how wrong he is, any further speculation is pointless.

I would lay odds on Darrian winning.

**Stelek**

So was that criticism, or negativity, Brian?

Yeah.

**Darrian13**

No, that was wisdom.

**Stelek**

lol got me on that one!

**Democratus**

In my area, the Ork terror has been Nob Biker spam. These guys are really starting to make an impact at the tournament scene. Multi-wound-model units with armor, cover, and invulnerable saves plus Feel No Pain are rediculously tough to destroy. Their high mobility allows them to dictate the location and pace of the battle - and the ability to differentiate the equipment of various models means that wounds can be spread out to avoid loosing models.

Maybe horde armies can handle this force well. But the 'elite' type armies are really struggling, my CSM included.

**40kenthusiast**

Without wading into the Stelek vs. Darrian13 style of Ork debate, I'll add my voice to the choir confirming the Ork's ascendancy. In my view they currently rule 40k. There isn't a list that can beat them and remain competitive vs. the rest of the field.