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I doubt that at least for this years GT's theres much change in terrain. It's unlikely that they will have the time to build a lot of LOS blocking terrain. My bet is that it will be the same stuff as previous years.

Personally I really like TLOS and don't feel the need to build large intact buildings and cliffs. 4+ cover all over the board is more then enough to make my orks happy.

Plus it looks good. Large hills aren't hard to make, but it is difficult to fit a piece in a make it look good with the rest of the table.

Stelek wrote:And that kind of terrain looks like...utter !

I don't want 8" high bluffs, thanks though.

It's not an afternoon to make good terrain, fyi.

You give it a hot wire, paint job and some sand and rubble and it looks good. Better, in fact, then 1.5" "hill" with some flock.

You're right though, it takes a couple of nights to make a good looking hill, bluff, rock spire. Still less time then converting and painting up a squad. I think you'll get more mileage out of the hill.

Honestly, I don't think an 8" hill is very high. Lower than a second story building from COD.

You played COD? Amazing...

Stelek wrote:They have? Hmmm, been playing on nicer looking terrain but it's honestly been about the same at most stores for many years now.

About the only real driver of change was buildings gave a 3+ save and so most people dropped them because it unbalanced the game.

TLOS doesn't really unbalance the game terribly.

I'm not talking about a total revolution, but change happened. 4th edition area terrain changed the look of tables just because they didn't all have to mimic golf courses anymore. Terrain generally increased because of the 25% guideline. That helped fill out a lot of really empty-looking tables, from what I saw.

Ah. I play in a very nice FLGS that has always had 50-75% terrain on every table if you really really wanted it. lol

Stelek wrote:You played COD? Amazing...

Nope, but I certainly see people running tourneys with the buildings.

This link for example has plenty of pictures of LOS blocking buildings.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210890.page

Looks good, if not a little odd. When I lived in the city we would have died to have that kind of parking...

Those don't block LOS....

Stelek wrote:Those don't block LOS....

1) Because they are lined up in one nice row...

2) Looks like they'd block LOS in Spearhead deployment

Don't get me wrong, the terrain looks great.

But the hills we've been playing with for so many years are hills, in name only. They aren't even a "grassy knoll". My root cellar comes up past my head. That's higher than most "hills" you see in stores.

Players can play on whatever terrain they want and it'll definitely change the game that is played.

An open field with hills up to the waist gives gun lines and first turn an advantage. Loads of TLOS blocking terrain favours CC (especially Jumppack CC). I like some of each on my tables.

Ah but buildings do not block TLOS, not the ones GW sold, because there are windows in them.

I do like some of each on the table. I don't agree with you that gunline armies need an advantage with terrain blocking LOS to jump pack CC armies.

Is a turn 2 assault not good enough for some reason? I certainly don't think so.

Not all the wall sections from COD buildings have windows, Stelek.

Capt K

In my area the LGSs have all had multiple terrain building nights, complete with tournament-level awards for participants. They now have cliffs, bluffs, factories, and other great looking terrain that can block LOS to the largest vehicles in 40K (and some that would even block LOS to a super heavy).

But then again I live in the best 40K city in America (Austin) so I'm spoiled.

Ok buddy. You go ahead and buy 500 bucks worth to make a table with those windowless walls.

Oh and it's REALLY boring to play on that kind of table.

Stelek wrote: I don't agree with you that gunline armies need an advantage with terrain blocking LOS to jump pack CC armies.

I'm not sure you understood my meaning but I imagine we're actually on the same page.

Take my Stormboyz, for example.

On a clear board, where most/all units can draw a bead on them, they get hammered. Gunline FTW.

On a table, with lots of TLOS blocking terrain, the stormboyz are, unsurprisingly, amazing. Doesn't feel fair.

On a mixed table, I can get my 2nd turn assault with a few losses but, I need to watch how exposed they'll be afterwords.

Stelek wrote:Ok buddy. You go ahead and buy 500 bucks worth to make a table with those windowless walls.

Oh and it's REALLY boring to play on that kind of table.

I think the opposite. Two armies facing off across a pasture just seems so... Waterloo.

Give me Stalingrad, Hamburger Hill, or any other battle where they don't fight on a field, frozen lake, or ash waste.

Save those arenas for Theoryhammer.

@Democratus, where do you game? Your store sounds great.

Stelek wrote:

gorgon wrote:Terrain collections will eventually adjust to compensate.

That's just players being if ya ask me.

Learn how to play without LOS blocking terrain.

It's not difficult.

It isn't about learning to play a different way, it's about playing better games. If you're playing on boards with so little LOS blocking terrain that you can't hide a unit of terminators, it sounds like you're playing on a really boring terrain set up.

well i went up camping a bit ago and forgot the new ork codex so i had to use my old one.
and i realized that orks FINALLY got good
when i was playing old orks againts new spaceies i was owned like a million times trying just as many tatics
but when i finally got the new codex back, the boyz finally came thro and gave them marines a good thumping
so i think its fair casue all the people with newer codex's get alot better

Seb, that's the point of 5th edition.

If you need to block LOS to terminators, you are doing something wrong.

Tell ya what, if it's that important...I'll let you get fortifications, I'll let you go first, and I'll stand out in the open.

Will you lose anyway? I think so.

Stelek wrote:Seb, that's the point of 5th edition.

If you need to block LOS to terminators, you are doing something wrong.

Tell ya what, if it's that important...I'll let you get fortifications, I'll let you go first, and I'll stand out in the open.

Will you lose anyway? I think so.

So terminators are terrible and shouldn't be taken, but if you use cover to protect them from the majority of the enemy while isolating and destroying a minority, then you're doing something wrong. Heh, all this time and no-one ever pointed out that manouvre warfare was invalid.


Meanhwhile, talking about who'd win in a hypothetical game on a hypothetical board lacks any content and is irrelevant to the discussion, particularly when I said earlier I'm not even that big a fan of terminators. Your argument that manouvre and LOS blocking should not be considered when comparing a five model unit to a 30 model unit is looking increasingly silly.

Cover doesn't help Terminators.

Yes, maneuver warfare works.

In 40k, that does not include the slowest guys in the game.

Darrian13 wrote:@Democratus, where do you game? Your store sounds great.

My primary store is Battleforge Games in Austin. This is where the Bell of Lost Souls guys (a.k.a Fly Lords) play. So I've enjoyed playing in their Horus Heresy campaign and will soon be knee deep in the Macharius Campaign they just published.

They've got 8 custom terrain boards, 4 of which are normal green ground and 4 special (desert, ash waste, mars-like, and ice). They even invite people over to help and learn their techniques for building the stuff.

The other local store (Dragon's Lair) holds "iron builder" contests where gamers come in and compete with each other to build new terrain. Some of it uses boxes of GW buildings, but a lot of it is DIY and creative stuff. I even know some player's wives who don't play 40K but show up for the terrain competition. They now have lots of cool stuff like quanset hut barracks, air fields, refineries, and other really cool stuff. Top builder in several categories gets store credit.

My league I play in has a player who uses foamboard to build factories, walls, fortifications, and (for our last campaign) a monorail system. So far he has spent about $40 to create 2 full tables of terrain.

5th edition can either be a burden or it can be a challenge. With the right community it can serve as a catalyst to get into all aspects of the hobby.

Amen Democratus,

/me investigates how much it would cost to emigrate to Austin TX...

Seriously. I just decided I do not like my FLGS anymore.

Come join mine...
We have hills, lots o hills

Damn your hills Cypher.

Darrian13 wrote:Seriously. I just decided I do not like my FLGS anymore.

Seconded. Democratus, you're one lucky bastid.

Stelek wrote:Cover doesn't help Terminators.

Yes, maneuver warfare works.

In 40k, that does not include the slowest guys in the game.

Sbuh?

Troops with assault weapons and standard movement are not the slowest guys in the game.

in the 4th edition i found orks were probarly the easist army to beat, gonna play an ork army next week so i'll see if they are as good as quite alot of people are making out

GW's basic 40k building terrain definitely doesn't block much TLOS. We've been using it in a Necromunda campaign for about 5 weeks now and I can tell you truthfully, you're lucky if you can get three guys truly out of sight in a 90 degree arc, much less an entire squad of 10+ dudes the size of marines or Orks.

I guess I am presupposing you're not throwing half the kits away to make nonstop solid walls.