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Anti-Mag wrote:Bollocks. Everyone is damning Thousand Sons, and i'm poised to start a new army with them.

Sorry mate, everything has cover now so that AP 3 bolter fire is useless.

DO:

Use the old Codex.

DON'T:

Use the horrid excuse for a new one.

BYE

Hands down, the lash prince is the superior choice of all the HQs. There is a reason it is run by all the "power" lists and so hated by its opponents.

I'm not going to dispute the effectiveness of a lash prince, but I will warn you that if you use them then most casual gamers will probably avoid you like the plague.

Just because it is effective doesn't make it fun.

My favorite games are the ones where both sides bash each other into paste and one side wins by a narrow margin.

If you are getting back into this game to have fun and to try and make the game fun for your opponent, then lash princes are probably not for you. If your goal is to win at all costs regardless of the fact that other players may avoid you like the plague for it, then double lash princes, obliterators, and plague marines are probably the way to go.

Honestly, I say you look through the codex find those elements which you find to be cool and pretty much go from there.

I mean there are some basic rules of thumb such as using two special weapons instead of a special and a heavy weapon in your CSM squads.

Overall, play with what you like because fun is the objective, while victory is a bonus.

A demon prince is always better than the other choices simply because it is immune to instant death. Meanwhile, Kharn gets squished by powerfists every other game. How did he survive 10k years?

Seems like Khorne is the way to go; run forward like Forrest Gump on acid, vault over any cherished 5th ed. cover, and brain people in close combat. And there was me with my promising plan of modelling Thousand Sons. OOF

aw stick with 1000 sons. Winning every game is not necissary having a cool army you love is more important.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Thousand Sons are pretty f*****g cool. Don't like the models so have plans to concert an entire army, with a gold colour scheme. Zing!

it is the best HQ chaos have. its so hard for most armies to play against duel lash its not even funny.[/quote[
LOL. Remember that you still have to pass a psychic test, so it won't always work. Are you implying that Abbadon is weaker than a Lash prince? And are you taking a Lash prince JUST to lash? Once in CC, he's going down to fists damn quick.

Abbadon is generally weaker than a Lash prince. The Prince won't cut his head off once every six turns of assault. The lash prince has a move of 12" while Abbadon slogs at 6" per turn. The prince is effective at range (lash) or CC (good attacks). Abbadon is fairly useless at range. Finally, Abbadon costs over 100 points more than the lash prince. That's 4 more fully kitted Noise Marines.

I think the final analysis has the prince far superior to Abbadon in combat effeciency.

Are you implying that the Lash Prince is more effective than the Chaos Banelord Titan?! Surely, you jest!

whitedragon wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Yup! Without being limited to just killing the models in the kill-zone, stuff like Khorne Berzerkers can get very nasty very fast. A unit of Terminators with an Icon of Khorne and all pairs of Lightening Claws can hit with 25 attacks.

Hooray, 25 attacks! It's christmas! Wait.

5 man Khorne termie squad with lightning claws is 240. Land Raider to get them anywhere is 220. So...~500 pts to dish out 25 attacks, what joy. And if you're playing against space marines, you'll run your land raider up, (with no machine spirit) run the termies out and assault a 5 man combat squad, and then stand there like a slow while the marine player decides the best way to rapid fire you to death, or if he's really sporting, he'll throw some 3+ storm shield save friends in to help you fall on your own lightning claws.

Pass.

Can I have some of those Slaaneshi drugs you're obviously partaking in?

They don't really need a Land Raider to deliver Terminators, since they can teleport. And the Land Raider is awesome in its own right, and with Daemonic Possession is tougher (and still cheaper) than the Imperial counterpart. Firing an extra weapon on the move is nice and all, but it's only BS2.

Anyway, personally, I'm not a big fan of expensive units of terminators. I like them in cheap units of 4, with three combi-plasmas, a heavy flamer and a chain/powerfist. Lethal enough against any target I may want to throw them at, and cheap enough to be expendable.

Not to mention they have the heavy armour to withstand a good double-tapping, and move onto the next unit of easily murdered chumps. If you support your Terminators with the rest of your army, say, by shooting the units they won't be assaulting, they're great assault units.

Certainly they seem to live up to their name now: use them to terminate an enemy unit with extreme prejudice (those pesty Lootas, those annoying Obliterators, that irritating Daemon Prince, those Hammerheads, etc.), or to capture and hold an objective.

Back on topic...

DON'T:
Don't put a Chaos Spawn model on the table that you paid points for it.
DO:
If you want to use your Chaos Spawn model, buy Gift of Chaos for a sorcerer.

so you deepstrike in your 5 LC khorne terminators (costing 46pts each) on your second turn, and run D6 inches. then they get shot. they will be a threat if they charge so your enemy will shot them to peices. they will probably lose about 3 guys. if they pass their LD test (if they fail you will never see them again) on your turn they will charge, get 10 attacks. 10 powerweapon attacks for 230pts on turn 3? thats not a good investment. there are many threads about equipping terminators knocking around. read those.

back on topic

generally chaos vehicles are bad. use land raiders and rhinos only if you really really need to trasport something, otherwise theyre not worth it.

Thousand Sons still have a lot of potential. On their own they'll suffer, but pair them up with Berserkers for maximum awesome. The Thousand Sons, as I've seen them played recently, are a special sort of defensive, whereby they can shoot apart MEQ assault units if they have a good position to do it from. Basically, in an objective-based mission, Khorne's nutjobs can head for the objective, while the Rubics can follow behind their charge. Either the enemy is forced to move up counter-assault units which you can take apart with your magic boltguns, particularly if the squad is in a Rhino so they can go around cover and fire from the optimal angle, or they stay put to avoid that and the Khorne charge basically eats them alive.

Also, picture what you could do with a Lash and some Rubics. Pull an expensive unit out of cover and cut it to pieces!

So, I'd say the way to do it would be a Lash sorcerer, x2 units of Rubics in Rhinos (that has a nice ring to it) and a scary Khornate squad or two. If you can cover anti-tank somewhere, you should be solid.

solkan wrote:Back on topic...

DON'T:
Don't put a Chaos Spawn model on the table that you paid points for it.
DO:
If you want to use your Chaos Spawn model, buy Gift of Chaos for a sorcerer.

I've done this a few times. It's pretty funny when it works.

As an ork player, if someone used Thousand Sons on me I'd be laughing my arse off.
I'm sure tyranid players would likewise be amused.

if you want a winning chaos:

HQ: Lash Prince or Greater Deamon

Elite: DONT

Troops: Plague Marines to hold the line and Beserkers to countercharge or replace Plague marines with Noise Marines

Fast Attack: DONT

Heavy: Oblits

Do like them for being great looking troops.

Don't expect to beat Orks especially in games under 1500 points. Why? Ork, 15 Lootas with Defguns=up to 45 strength 7 AP 4 shots at 48 inch range cost-225 points. 3 units, cost 675, up to 90 7/4 shots in a turn. 2 units of 8 Thousand Sons tooled up with Aspiring Sorcerers- about the same price.....

(And don't get me started about the time that the Mek Shok Attack Gun rolled a 10 for strength, AP 2, and drifted over my 4 obliterators......)......

My Chaos guys look cool, but I just cry when 4 objectives go down. Cult Marines are just so expensive that in smaller games I may not even be able to put four units on the board. If I have four units its still unhealty to spread them out to try to take 3 objectives. Cover saves do me almost no good, because my saves are either better than the cover save, or for TS you've already paid for a cover save. You have NO ablative units, like Guard conscripts for example, to absorb a charge.

HQ? Hard to have points in smaller games for something other than LASH. Good news, you're a MC. Bad news, the enemy can see you and shoot you at long range, and your invulnerable save isn't that high.

Psychotic powers; what you really need are some kind of warlock like commanders who could turn that TS invuln save into an Invuln save with reroll. Bad news, it doesn't exit.

Daemon Weapons, good news-they are very killy. Bad news, Daemon Princes don't seem to know about them.

Good news: Chaos Termies and Obliterators have a 2+ armor save. Bad news, plasma guns, plasma cannons, melta guns, Ork SAG, Tau railguns all defeat AP2.

Good news: Obliterators have 2 wounds. Bad news, they are T4 and really don't have 2 wounds against Lascannon, Fire Prism, DArk Lance, everything in every decent army.

Chaos Marines-back in the box, buy Ork or Tau instead or save money for mandatory new Space Marine equipment. Wait for Chaos Cultists to reappear in menu.....

So much doom and gloom, mikeguth!

Plague Marines are the answer for Orks at nearly all points cost. They will consistenly beat Orks in combat when equal in cost.

Another great cheap unit is bog standard CSM with an Icon of Khorne. Tons of attacks for fairly cheap. Just be sure to avoid too many morale rolls.

Defilers are also a very good buy at low points values. Oblits are excellent for any value. Keep the squads separated so a single blast can't kill 2 squads like in the above example.

Rhinos give great early game protection for Fearless troops now that the Entangle rule has been removed. In larger games it might be worth it to use Chosen with the Outflank rule. They can be given equipment to take on any challenge in the enemy's backfield.

The key to playing chaos successfully is "Contest"! You only need hold one of your objectives if you can contest all the others. Use your superior troops to wedge yourself onto his objectives. Use rhinos and other vehicles to tankshock enemy units off of them. And if you play a Kill Point game, just grin and enjoy it!

I'll have to pose this as a question, I don't have enough playtime against chaos to make it a statement.

Are lash princes really the right choice in 5th? In all of my 5th edition versions of my main armies, on both of my terrain sets, my chaos opponent can not lash a unit without trading his prince. To put it a different way, As soon as he lands within 24" of something, he dies. Not really theory-hammering this. I've done it consistently with guard and eldar.

I can't imagine that a single shot lash is worth 150 points, I'm not talking about firing my whole army into him either. TLOS is just too unforgiving, on my crystals and trees table, and my cities of death table.

I can only assume that putting the lash on a sorcerer and popping around to different NM units, or upgrading to termie armor and running the terminator unit (which is not bad, and just getting better as people ease off on the plasma) would be AT LEAST as good as this "no-brainer" prince.

I 'get' what is good about that lash prince, but what I'm really wondering is... Are people looking for a consistent, sturdy lash battery? Or a one trick turn 1 or 2 assault from a single MC?

Anti-Mag wrote:Bollocks. Everyone is damning Thousand Sons, and i'm poised to start a new army with them.

Don't worry - ultimately an army with 2 wounds each has got... oh wait, nevermind.

Shep wrote:I'll have to pose this as a question, I don't have enough playtime against chaos to make it a statement.

Are lash princes really the right choice in 5th? In all of my 5th edition versions of my main armies, on both of my terrain sets, my chaos opponent can not lash a unit without trading his prince. To put it a different way, As soon as he lands within 24" of something, he dies. Not really theory-hammering this. I've done it consistently with guard and eldar.

I can't imagine that a single shot lash is worth 150 points, I'm not talking about firing my whole army into him either. TLOS is just too unforgiving, on my crystals and trees table, and my cities of death table.

I can only assume that putting the lash on a sorcerer and popping around to different NM units, or upgrading to termie armor and running the terminator unit (which is not bad, and just getting better as people ease off on the plasma) would be AT LEAST as good as this "no-brainer" prince.

I 'get' what is good about that lash prince, but what I'm really wondering is... Are people looking for a consistent, sturdy lash battery? Or a one trick turn 1 or 2 assault from a single MC?

the downside of having a sorcerer in a squad (apart from demon princes just being better) is that where ever he is will get more fire thrown at them than any other unit in the army. its much easier to kill T4 guys than T5 guys. a lash sorcerer and a lash prince are about the same points cost, so rather than just losing a 150pt model, you loose a 150pt model and a 200pt squad. this dosent even go into the reasons that demon princes are intinsically better than sorcerers. even with TLOS being punishing to MCs they are still better than the other stuff.

watch out for the temptation to use land raiders against eldar or tau. vehicles may be more survivable, but railguns and wraithlords bring them down.the 25 attack terminator squads can move as far as a land raider. a tactic i have found useful to field is large amounts of cheap csm squads. 10 with a missle launcher(which i think is the most improved 10-point weapon) is 160 points. my strategy for army building is that marks are not necessary, and that tzeentch and nurgle are no-no's for small games. Question: 5 havocs with autocannons or defiler: which is better all-around?.

lash prince is definitely the best HQ choice for chaos. thousand sons haven't been killed as much as people have said, but since blast weapons can't miss entirely, a well directed battlecannon can easily take down the sorcerer and hinder the sons. not to mention 23 points plus 60....

You know, TSons would really be well balanced if their ammo ignored cover (perhaps with a sorcerer power?) as well. I don't even play chaos, and I would love to see that option out there. Their disadvantages are so many that I really don't think that would be overdoing it.

Sorry for going OT.

As an Eldar player, I fear Noise Marines the most in 5th. Plague Marines are slightly less scary now, but when mixed with Noise Marines they become the defensive anvil to the Noise Marines' hammer. I think Nurgle/Slaanesh/Obliterator combos are the scariest Chaos variant out there- Lash included in the mix, of course.

Every time I have fought a MON Demon Prince with Wings and Warptime. It has done far better than I have ever imagined. In pers of absolute cc death, MON Prince with wings and warptime is the way to go.

Lash prince is a best,but not the only.We play not only for win,but for fun.

If I want to take a lord,is deamon weapon the only chioce?It seems that he would not do better than a sorceror,if he take other weapon.

Mike I sure hope that was a 4,6 roll and not a 5,5 roll.