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It is good that FoD is gone as some armies had no defense against it. The AP3 heavy flamer is going to really hurt.

G

So once again we see that GW's simplification of the 3rd edition Marines was a failed experiment... This codex is looking to be the most intricate Marine offering since 2nd ed.

I want my Salamander fire shootie power back!

AgeOfEgos wrote:An update for the powers:

You can cast two a turn

WTF? Another convenient rule exception?

I concur with Jayden's comments. Why make the rules if you're going to break them all in one codex. (I'm not normally in the knee jerk camp, honest)

Don't Tzeentch sorcerers already break this rule?

Along with Farseers with the right Wargear?

This isn't that far off, with the "Level 2" Librarian being the '2 powers a turn' guy...

The only people in the Chaos Marine book who can cast two in a turn are Typhus and Ahriman is far as I know. Daemons are a different story but they aren't quite psychic powers so I'm not gonna count them.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:The only people in the Chaos Marine book who can cast two in a turn are Typhus and Ahriman is far as I know. Daemons are a different story but they aren't quite psychic powers so I'm not gonna count them.

Nah you cant count an army that breaks a rule that big. You know casting psychic powers without really being psychic powers... *rolleyes*

I think Alpharius has a good point. Space marines aren't singular to being able to cast two powers a turn. I didnt hear anyone crying about eldar doing it before. I havenet heard a peep about certain chaos models doing it either. Its just a shame (and why its a point of contention) that all armies don't have this ability.

You could combine the ap 3 flamer power with smite and have a pretty deadly close range Libby to go with your Sternguard Veterans.

Honestly I didn't read this thread earlier cause I didn't feel like being showered with SM cheddar again. But I'm pleasantly surprised, a full set of powers that aren't world shattering and have some interesting applications, rather than a two that appear in every army because they're so obviously better ...

The two power thing, however, is a load of it. A brief breakdown:

Sorcerer w/ Mark of Tizz
- May purchase two powers
- May use two powers a turn
- 4+ inv save

Librarian w/ No Upgrade Needed
- Comes with two powers
- May use two powers a turn
- 4+ inv save

So. Go Tizz.

- Salvage

EDIT -> For the record I think force weapons should have been changed to always be usable once a turn, in addition to a psychic power in the shooting phase. Kinda the point behind them, for as few things that are left to Instant Death.

That's a whole lot of fun customizability to the Librarian now, with the 2 powers and using 2 in a turn. Adds a lot of choice. I like it. With choosing to use a power and the force weapon or 2 powers, all with running the risk of a Perils test.

I agree with Salvage about the Force weapons. I always forgot to not use the psychic power when I needed the Force weapons 'you dead' power...

So how do you re-roll the re-rolls that people get from powers that allow them to re-roll their invul/armor/cover saves?

Boss_Salvage wrote:Honestly I didn't read this thread earlier cause I didn't feel like being showered with SM cheddar again. But I'm pleasantly surprised, a full set of powers that aren't world shattering and have some interesting applications, rather than a two that appear in every army because they're so obviously better ...

The two power thing, however, is a load of it. A brief breakdown:

Sorcerer w/ Mark of Tizz
- May purchase two powers
- May use two powers a turn
- 4+ inv save

Librarian w/ No Upgrade Needed
- Comes with two powers
- May use two powers a turn
- 4+ inv save

You are forced to upgrade the Librarian to get two powers, the base only has one.

@ AoE - Fair enough then, so the basic libby is comparable to a sorcerer w/ MoT & 1 power (he can use his force weapon & his 1 power).

- Salvage

Boss_Salvage wrote:@ AoE - Fair enough then, so the basic libby is comparable to a sorcerer w/ MoT & 1 power (he can use his force weapon & his 1 power).

- Salvage

I don't even know if a basic librarian can use 1 power with his force weapon. The only thing I've seen regarding using 2 powers, was a poster stating he could combine certain powers for the upgraded librarian (Such as I was discussing earlier in this thread) and it was confirmed. I haven't seen anything to indicate a basic librarian (with 1 power) can use his force weapon the same turn as other psychic powers.

*Shrug*, regardless we have no way to quantify how broken/worthless the upgraded Librarian is until we see cost. His 'free' powers could very well add 50 points to his base cost for all we know (and I wouldn't be shocked). One thing is for certain, regarding the rumours/options...the HQ choices will actually be 'choices' now instead of obvious picks.

You've made the best point so far to counter ALL Space Marine rumors to date: Wait until we see the costs.

For all of it!

I have the feeling that the new stuff, in fact, all of the stuff, is going to be pricey indeed.

This probably all started when the "free" heavy and special weapon if you take 10 man Tacticals news broke.

Completely glossing over the fact that we did not know the cost of a 10 man tac squad going forward. And the fact that if you're 'forced' to take a 10 man squad to get the 'freebies', you're likely giving up something else.

And given the effectiveness of the Horde army now, especially Orks, something's got to give the other way too, right?

We'll see though...

Marines!! GRRRR!! i hope they make everything very expensive points wise for a second power. Why are amrines getting everything!

The best psycher in the whole game is eldrad elthran

I'll trade you all of those spells listed for Fortune.

I agree, I'd like some thousand sons with re-rolling saves.

Squig_herder wrote:The best psycher in the whole game is eldrad elthran

Which is why every Eldar player takes him.

Marines with fancy Librarians won't change that.

Anyway, I hope that Marine Librarians have to pay 30 points for their powers, and then a further 30 points in order to be able to take a second power, just like Tzeentchian Sorcerers have to currently.

BYE

He also costs 210 points and as a rule I never run him.

I like them a LOT! Nice variety, and nothing screams broken the way Fear of Darkness did. I still think they should've had some continuation - just checked the wackiest rules to reasonable level.

Hellfury wrote:

Nah you cant count an army that breaks a rule that big. You know casting psychic powers without really being psychic powers... *rolleyes*.

Cause they totally have regular shooting attacks besides these "psychic powers". Oh wait... they don't. But that's ok, lets make them have to cast everything as well...

Squig_herder wrote:Why are the marines getting evrything?
Hello, Dark Eldar need a new codex bad! or guard, why are the marines getting eveything, im so sick of every six months they get a ship load of stuff when other races are falliing behind!

short answer? because Space Marines sales are the backbone of the miniature line. You haven't looked at the current release cycle either have you?

I agree the ability to use more than one power is creeping inexorably upwards. Again, I fear pointless escalation. If Eldrad is just too effective, and Tzeentch and Eldar aren't 'special' enough to be the only ones with the multiple power rule, then why not every Librarian as well?

To be honest, the one thing I most feared/respected about Librarians was the ability to nullify other race's powers, something that is much less available than it ever was in 2nd ed. I saw Librarians as having that niche as the psychic protector of the Emperor's finest, but apparently I'm a bit off base there.

blood angel wrote:So how do you re-roll the re-rolls that people get from powers that allow them to re-roll their invul/armor/cover saves?

What I would do is this ... say you get a re-roll from fortune. They roll, if necessary they re-roll.

Then that is considered a successful roll.

Then they have to roll again. If they fail it the first time they get a re-roll.

So they can roll up to 4 times. Basically they have to pass the roll twice, and they get a re-roll on both rolls.

wee.

oh wow, you can use multiple powers a turn and you get to pick them for free? well depending on what the libby costs that is.

that is really cool, the powers arent over the top like lash, but you can come up with some really fun combos this way. This is how the powers should be, allowing races to use all of them in diferent ways, the ability to use more than one makes their use all the more potent due to layering. that is a great idea in my opinion, hopefully the other races follow suit.

come on GW, give IG some good powers again! the old primaris battle psyker was nails back in the day!

Nine psychic powers! That is too many, Farseers should have the best variety. Chaos sorcerors, being fueled by dark gods should also have a superior selection to SM Librarians.

I think we should count ten powers, the last power being available to all Librarians by default:

Hurr!
Spase Marinez auto-r0xx0r over Eldar and CSM. kekekekekekekekekekek

Orlanth wrote:Nine psychic powers! That is too many, Farseers should have the best variety. Chaos sorcerors, being fueled by dark gods should also have a superior selection to SM Librarians.

I think we should count ten powers, the last power being available to all Librarians by default:

Hurr!
Spase Marinez auto-r0xx0r over Eldar and CSM. kekekekekekekekekekek

Duh, you're way off base there Orlanth. CSM are old and senile. They should be happy that they get psychic powers at all. Farseers are leaders of a dying race and are just walking magic eight balls, not warriors, so their battlefield powers should be way worse than Marine ones. Space Marines should, by the fluff have the best everything. I'm not sure why they didn't make them 10 points each with a statline consisting of 5's and a 2+ save.

/sarcasm.

Damn straight.

Stand up and tow the line!

Oh wait, you were being sarcastic.

Nevermind.

I thnk that all races should have either 4 or 8 powers.

And some should have access to other's power groups.

No, really.

Bring back Telekinesis 4! Yeah, that one really annoyed the guys fielding Avatars etc.

Mahu wrote:

No, Nullzone and the Storm Speeder X 3 = autowin for Marines If they get first turn, the Demon player might as well pack up.

Yeah, but who is going to bring that to a tournament.

The 3 Storm Speeders or the Daemon army?

AgeOfEgos wrote:The Librarian Upgrade (Epistolary) gets two powers
You choose any two, which are free with the Librarian (Of course, depending on his cost...how free will they be...)
You can cast two a turn

Because SM Librarians all have the Mark of Tzeentch? I mean heaven forbid a space marine librarian be less psychically powerful than a f#*%ing Thousand Sons sorcerer. That just wouldn't be fluffy.