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Good riddance to a craptastic unit, Atleast we can now hope they do some proper rules for them and some better mini's Its all win win as far as I can see.

and before people start saying they will now have a useless army they can still use the DW as normal marines.

beef wrote:
and before people start saying they will now have a useless army they can still use the DW as normal marines.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

whitedragon wrote:You just play Space Marines...

This really seems to be the solution to every problem. Bad codex? No codex? Army nerfed? Army no longer supported? No problem! Just play Space Marines.

Classic!

beef wrote:Good riddance to a craptastic unit, Atleast we can now hope they do some proper rules for them and some better mini's

Now, now, Deathwatch were perfectly fine for a pre-Codex: Daemonhunters approach toward Chamber Militant Allies. They had their single entry, and it was pretty decent, with lots of sexy options compared to ordinary Marines. Once the DH got their book (a badly-considered decision and approach, IMO) the bar was raised considerably. Which is why Inquisition is now stuck in a rut.

Single-Chapter Chamber Militants like Deathwatch and Grey Knights should be ultra-rare in the 40k universe. As a Chapter, each is a whopping 1000 Marines strong. Nominal structure is 5 Terminators or 10 Marines, giving 200 Termie squads or 100 Kill Teams. And that's assuming no battle losses (Ha!), nobody in reserves, nobody in training, despite standard Astartes practice to have 40% in Reserve and 10% in training. Spread that across the Imperium, and the numbers show that they're distributed so widely that it would be a truly exceptional to see more than 1 such unit in any given area.

So it'll be interesting to see how GW moves forward. I'm guessing that DW and GK get trimmed back considerably to better match the fluff, and that full forces move to Apocalypse. Ideally, GW provides Deathwatch and GK Datasheets in the Inquisition Codex as Appendices - if GW is going to move armies to Apocalypse-only, at least make it easy for the player!


Model-wise, the old metal Deathwatch shoulderpads are fine. Better, IMO, than the plastics. The DW heads and Bolters are crap, but eh, GW has done worse.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Single-Chapter Chamber Militants like Deathwatch and Grey Knights should be ultra-rare in the 40k universe. As a Chapter, each is a whopping 1000 Marines strong.

Uh, Dark Angels are a whopping 1000 Marines strong too. And they aren't spread out in individual squads across a bunch of different Inquisitor armies. So wouldn't it be rarer to see Dark Angels across the battlefield from you than Deathwatch?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Single-Chapter Chamber Militants like Deathwatch and Grey Knights should be ultra-rare in the 40k universe. As a Chapter, each is a whopping 1000 Marines strong.

Uh, Dark Angels are a whopping 1000 Marines strong too. And they aren't spread out in individual squads across a bunch of different Inquisitor armies. So wouldn't it be rarer to see Dark Angels across the battlefield from you than Deathwatch?

I agree. Any single given chapter is going to only be at no more than 6 different locations fighting, this assumes all battle companies deployed (there are of course exceptions). While with Deathwatch or Grey Knights they are deployed in many smaller battle contingents, as many as 100 different theaters of combat deployed in a support role. Also unlike a normal Space Marine chapter Deathwatch and Grey Knights don't hold reserves companies, so a full deployment is more common. For example in the case of the Deathwatch to maintain a full chapter strength they only need one marine from each chapter, requesting veterans from the different chapters sworn to support them, if one marine dies they simply request another who will also be of a veteran standing, making all Space Marine Chpater sworn to support the Deathwatch their reserve.

Both Grey Knights and Deathwatch because of their ties to the Inquisition received dispensation from the normal Index Astares structure and dictates. This is because they are at the disposal of the Inquisition which with in its mandates, as handed down by the emperor, specifically allow the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus it to maintain them.

If the DW ever get specifically revisited they will probably be multi-part metal miniatures done in the same vein as the different SM veterans.

The ones that benefited most from Deathwatch were definitely the IG players fielding them. IG have never had a good shooty and good close combat unit and relative to what is available in the IG codex, DW are better.

I wasn't aware that Deathwatch were organized into chapters or even subject to the Codex since they're technically part of the Inquisition. The Marines that make up the Deathwatch are "on loan" from the donating chapters and farmed out in squads by the Ordo Xenos to assist Inquisitors in emergencies.

They aren't, there were two teams (20 space marines?) active during the whole third battle for Armageddon. Whole armies of Deathwatch are highly unlikely.

I didn't see any indication that Sternguard replace the Deathwatch thematically.

I think the unit is definitely a nod to players who want to use Deathwatch units in their SM army until an Inquisitorial codex ever comes out.


One thing that was a surprise to me about the Sternguard is that they have *all* types of ammo and can choose which one to fire each round!

Of course they are something like 25 points a model or something crazy like that, so I suppose they deserve it.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Uh, Dark Angels are a whopping 1000 Marines strong too. And they aren't spread out in individual squads across a bunch of different Inquisitor armies. So wouldn't it be rarer to see Dark Angels across the battlefield from you than Deathwatch?

You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting.

BYE

yakface wrote:
Of course they are something like 25 points a model or something crazy like that, so I suppose they deserve it.

Considering regular DW are 25 with a fixed ammo choice, 1 attack (but have True Grit), and less Ld, it is a good deal. Plus Sternguard get Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads. Then again, DW can always Deep Strike if without a transport.

25 points doesn't seem so bad to me. Gets Hot! being a rule for one of their ammo type seems like a half-hearted way of balancing them, but 25 points isn't out of whack IMO.

BYE

George Spiggott wrote:They aren't, there were two teams (20 space marines?) active during the whole third battle for Armageddon. Whole armies of Deathwatch are highly unlikely.

Looking at the OOB for Armageddon, the Adeptus Astartes had something like 150 Companies active, and several Chapters fielded 9 (or more) Companies:
- Black Dragons (9)
- Celebrants (10)
- Celestial Lions (10)
- Exorcists (12!)
- Mortifactors (10)
- Omega Marines (9)
- Relictors (10)
These Chapters were effectively fully-committed to Armageddon, with many fielding their Reserve *and* Training Companies. If any of these were to have been wiped from the field, the Chapter would have been effectively destroyed, to rebuild from scratch. Armageddon is a *BIG* deal.

Now, we turn to Ordo Xenos:
- 2 Kill Teams

That's right, out of their entire Chamber Militant, Ordo Xenos didn't field much more than 20 Deathwatch Marines, with perhaps a single Librarian in command.

If that is the Ordo Xenos response to perhaps the largest Xenos threat to face the Imperium in recent memory, one has to be rather skeptical of any claim that Ordo Xenos could ever muster in quantity for anything else.

Otherwise, it begs the question why they didn't have more of a presence at Armageddon. Was Ghaz not a sufficient Xenos threat to warrant *more* Kill Teams that are notionally "expert" at this sort of thing?

Its important to realize, as its been pointed out that the Ordo Xenos doesn't wage wars against what are perceived as conventional alien races. They catalog all aliens, standing guards over the resting places of past Xenos threats and provide support in major conflicts. In the past when different Gamesday speakers have been asked about the Deathwatch and an Ordo Xenos Codex, they response has been fairly consistent; that the Deathwatch assist with most of these major alien encroachments but what they actually amass to fight are the bigger Cthullu-esque aliens or aliens capable of telepathically dominating a populace. That they are a more specialized force than to just fight the average Tyranid or Ork.
It is similar to how the Grey Knights fight Chaos, they don't fight all chaos they specialize against daemons. Sisters of Battle don't fight all chaos, they specialize to fight telepaths and witches.

So yes the Deathwatch only contributed a minor force to Armageddon, but thats because that isn't their mandate and it exemplifies an important distinction. As big as the fight for Armageddon was the Deathwatch have bigger things to deal with.

John casually forgets (or should I say carefully omits) the 1st Battle for Armageddon where a whole company of Grey Knights showed up as an army.

He doesn't like the idea of the Chambers Militant showing up in any sort of force... well... except for the SoBs. They're an exception because... well... they just are damn it! Ask Jonny. He knows why they're an exception (or should I say why he thinks they're an exception).

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:Its important to realize, as its been pointed out that the Ordo Xenos doesn't wage wars against what are perceived as conventional alien races. They catalog all aliens, standing guards over the resting places of past Xenos threats and provide support in major conflicts. In the past when different Gamesday speakers have been asked about the Deathwatch and an Ordo Xenos Codex, they response has been fairly consistent; that the Deathwatch assist with most of these major alien encroachments but what they actually amass to fight are the bigger Cthullu-esque aliens or aliens capable of telepathically dominating a populace.

So yes the Deathwatch only contributed a minor force to Armageddon, but thats because that isn't their mandate and it exemplifies an important distinction. As big as the fight for Armageddon was the Deathwatch have bigger things to deal with.

So either the Deathwatch don't fight at all, they only fight in =Inquisitor= skirmish, or they fight in "save the universe" situations. But they don't bother to fight against "ordinary" Xenos, so they don't need to be represented in 40k beyond the lone Kill Team or two.

OK. Based on that, it's perfectly OK to relegate massed Deathwatch to Apocalypse-only events, where they can join the LatD and GSC and Harlie armies alongside Ambulls and Zoats.

JohnHwangDD wrote:...where they can join the LatD ...

You just love twisting the knife don't you, almost as much as I enjoy the fact that you can't see my posts.

BYE

Thats not what I said. Don't put word in my mouth.

I said yes they fight as mass forces.

They do excel at fighting Xenos but their mandate is for fighting things that are a bigger or unorthodox threats that might go beyond a direct Ork invasion.

They're purpose is to:
A) catalog Aliens, the threats they might pose, the technology they poses
B) Watch over the dark places where big xenos threats have been known to awaken from
C) Fight the Xenos threats that traditional military force would be ill equipped to fight.

Its within the scale of an average 40k game to deal with the sort of threats the Deathwatch would be called to deal with. Examples would include:
A) Xenos with mind control capabilities that has taken over a system government.
B) An alien terror that is awakening, the Necron is the Ordo Xenos' biggest blunder.
C) Humans fighting alongside a xenos race.

It is that the Ordo Xenos fight the unorthodox xenos threat. It is no different than how the Ordo Hereticus or Ordo Malleus fight the unorthodox chaos threats.

How can you say that a potent military force in the universe belong in the smallest most detailed game or the largest scaled variant of 40k but not the core game itself? The Inquisitor game doesn't allow for full squads of Deathwatch and isn't a skirmish game intended for military conflicts and the Apocalypse scaled games operate outside the scale that an elite strike force would be practical relative to giant war machines.

40k is intended for play with armies as small as 500 pts to and as much as 2999 pts, that is about two squads of marines and a commander all the way up to about a full battle company, that scale is the scale at which Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters of Battle would be amassed. It is beyond that scale that their specialization would be a mott point relative to the larger warmachines. GW's lack of support of the Inquisition in Apocalypse actually shows that its at that larger scale battle that the inquisition doesn't really fit.

You might not believe the Inquisition and by association the Grey Knights, Sister of Battles, and Deathwatch belong in 40k, but GW does and that they are here to stay. It might not be in this form but they are here in 40k now and those forces are here to stay.

Mythos, c'mon man, we've been over this.

You can't fight a wall by running into it. The only way to fight a wall is to walk away so it can't hit you.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:John casually forgets (or should I say carefully omits) the 1st Battle for Armageddon where a whole company of Grey Knights showed up as an army.

How is the number of Grey Knights fielded relevant to the number of Deathwatch fielded? They're totally different organisations.

His actual argument is that the Chambers Militant should not be represented as an actual force, but as a generic single Elites choice in their parent list.

So you would not be able to field a Deathwatch or a Grey Knight army because they shouldn't be fielded as armies. Ever. Of course, he makes an exception for Sisters because he likes them, no other reason.

It's a double standard.

All three should be part of a unified Inquisitorial Codex with multiple options per Chamber Militant. It's not hard.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:All three should be part of a unified Inquisitorial Codex with multiple options per Chamber Militant. It's not hard.

I can agree with that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:His actual argument is that the Chambers Militant should not be represented as an actual force, but as a generic single Elites choice in their parent list.

So you would not be able to field a Deathwatch or a Grey Knight army because they shouldn't be fielded as armies. Ever. Of course, he makes an exception for Sisters because he likes them, no other reason.

I would argue the opposite. Grey Knights should be represented as an entire army in 40k while Sisters should be represented as a generic single Elites choice and only appear as an army in Apocalypse. Why you ask? For the same reason that Chaos Daemons are an entire army in 40k while LatD are Apocalypse-only.

aka_mythos wrote:Thats not what I said. Don't put word in my mouth.

I said yes they fight as mass forces.

They do excel at fighting Xenos but their mandate is for fighting things that are a bigger or unorthodox threats that might go beyond a direct Ork invasion.


How can you say that a potent military force in the universe belong in the smallest most detailed game or the largest scaled variant of 40k but not the core game itself?


40k is intended for play with armies as small as 500 pts to and as much as 2999 pts, that is about two squads of marines and a commander all the way up to about a full battle company, that scale is the scale at which Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters of Battle would be amassed. It is beyond that scale that their specialization would be a mott point relative to the larger warmachines. GW's lack of support of the Inquisition in Apocalypse actually shows that its at that larger scale battle that the inquisition doesn't really fit.

You might not believe the Inquisition and by association the Grey Knights, Sister of Battles, and Deathwatch belong in 40k, but GW does and that they are here to stay. It might not be in this form but they are here in 40k now and those forces are here to stay.

Don't you put words in my mouth then, either.

Currently, there are no rules for DW to fight en masse. And your continue to give reasons why Deathwatch don't fight the "regular" Xenos of 40k (Orks, Eldar, Nids, Tau). So explain to me why Deathwatch need rules to be fielded en masse against opponents that they don't fight?

If they really are a potent military force, they'd be more effective than Sternguard rules-wise, or have more impact on Armageddon Fluff-wise.

According to the rulebook, 40k is intended to be played by armies of 1500 pts, and remains "proper" for small variances from 1000 to 2000 pts. 40k can be played with more or less, just as WFB can. It's possible. It just doesn't feel like the same game.


Now, let me be clear:
- Sisters belong in 40k as an army. They've been around as an army with a Codex since 2E.
- Grey Knights belong in 40k as individual units, going back to before RT. And per RoC, they're valid as an Apocalypse army against Chaos.
- Deathwatch are the n00bs of the Inquistion, and don't deserve to be more than a single unit entry.
So yeah, SoB should stay, and GK and DW can stay. I just don't think that GK or DW should stay on as an army, when there are far larger and more common forces that could use the effort required in creating and maintaining Codices.

For the same effort required to make DW into an actual army, GW could do 2 (or 3) Ruinous Powers books. There are lots more WE / DG / EC players who'd like a Chaos book, compared to the handful of DW players out there. For the same effort in updating GK, GW could update IG and SW. Again, there are a lot more IG and SW players compared to GK players.

Heck, I'd be willing to see DE get a little love before DW, and we all know *that* ain't gonna happen...

Sternguard? Are they Sirius? (Little joke there.)

bugswarm wrote:Sternguard? Are they Sirius? (Little joke there.)

That was bad, Bugs...good to see you around, btw.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:His actual argument is that the Chambers Militant should not be represented as an actual force, but as a generic single Elites choice in their parent list.

So you would not be able to field a Deathwatch or a Grey Knight army because they shouldn't be fielded as armies. Ever. Of course, he makes an exception for Sisters because he likes them, no other reason.

I would argue the opposite. Grey Knights should be represented as an entire army in 40k while Sisters should be represented as a generic single Elites choice and only appear as an army in Apocalypse. Why you ask? For the same reason that Chaos Daemons are an entire army in 40k while LatD are Apocalypse-only.

Lost and the Damned And Sisters of Battle both belong in all scales of 40k; the LatD simply aren't allowed in tournaments, I know people who still use them to play. SoB belong simply because they're about as number as much as Space Marines do. LatD are not an army in Apocalypse simply because they simply don't have any miniatures; at this point GW has just said if you want to do LatD to simply use the IG codex, effectively giving anyone playing an IG force the option of being LatD by simply choosing some chaos models to partner up with in an Apocalypse game. Also if you're playing something as flexible with the rules and army lists as Apocalypse what stops a person from using the Codex Eye of Terror.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Thats not what I said. Don't put word in my mouth.
I said yes they fight as mass forces.
They do excel at fighting Xenos but their mandate is for fighting things that are a bigger or unorthodox threats that might go beyond a direct Ork invasion.

How can you say that a potent military force in the universe belong in the smallest most detailed game or the largest scaled variant of 40k but not the core game itself?

40k is intended for play with armies as small as 500 pts to and as much as 2999 pts, that is about two squads of marines and a commander all the way up to about a full battle company, that scale is the scale at which Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters of Battle would be amassed. It is beyond that scale that their specialization would be a mott point relative to the larger warmachines. GW's lack of support of the Inquisition in Apocalypse actually shows that its at that larger scale battle that the inquisition doesn't really fit.

You might not believe the Inquisition and by association the Grey Knights, Sister of Battles, and Deathwatch belong in 40k, but GW does and that they are here to stay. It might not be in this form but they are here in 40k now and those forces are here to stay.

Don't you put words in my mouth then, either.

What words did I put in your mouth?

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Currently, there are no rules for DW to fight en masse. And your continue to give reasons why Deathwatch don't fight the "regular" Xenos of 40k (Orks, Eldar, Nids, Tau). So explain to me why Deathwatch need rules to be fielded en masse against opponents that they don't fight?

Well actually there were. The Killteam rules allowed you to alternately field a Space Marine army in which any model in any HQ, Elite, Troops may be upgraded to a Deathwatch member and given the special ammunition available to them. That sure sounds like rules for a full army, not all that unique but it is an army none the less.

Just because it isn't their mandate to fight full out invasions doesn't mean they don't fight en mass. They do fight "regular" Xenos but they deal with the Heresy of the xenos, they fight the element of xenos that corrupt, such as Tau who have forced the greater good onto humans and are now using human auxiliaries, or Tyranids that have utilized genestealer hybrids, or orks who have allowed Diggas into their ranks.

Presumably the Deathwatch would get the same treatment as Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle, in the form of adversary rules; the adversary rules are only included in both of those codex books to provided the additional rules to create the interesting narrative to help the narrow minded justify using those armies. Ordo Xenos adversaries would simply be a unique monstrous Xenos, some xenos mercenary options, and Xeno allied humans.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
If they really are a potent military force, they'd be more effective than Sternguard rules-wise, or have more impact on Armageddon Fluff-wise.

And if those marine chapters were so potent they wouldn't have needed to deploy reserves.... Armageddon just isn't the sort of fight they fight. See above.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
According to the rulebook, 40k is intended to be played by armies of 1500 pts, and remains "proper" for small variances from 1000 to 2000 pts. 40k can be played with more or less, just as WFB can. It's possible. It just doesn't feel like the same game.

Do you moonlight as a rules lawyer? My friends and I play 500 pt games and its fun. Also GW escalation leagues start with 500 pts, are you telling me for two weeks people are being told to play the game incorrectly? I think it proper to quote the rulebook: "There really is no single right way to do things, so go with whatever suits you best."

The number of models played in sub-1000 pts games are more akin to previous editions if there is an insistence on larger games its because GW would like us to spend more money. This is really the first edition where the core rulebook as no mention of games below 1500 pts.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Now, let me be clear:
- Sisters belong in 40k as an army. They've been around as an army with a Codex since 2E.
- Grey Knights belong in 40k as individual units, going back to before RT. And per RoC, they're valid as an Apocalypse army against Chaos.
- Deathwatch are the n00bs of the Inquistion, and don't deserve to be more than a single unit entry.
So yeah, SoB should stay, and GK and DW can stay. I just don't think that GK or DW should stay on as an army, when there are far larger and more common forces that could use the effort required in creating and maintaining Codices.

Grey Knights belong as an army more than ever now that there is a Codex Daemons. They had army rules in RT for an army it was in 2nd Ed they were downgraded

If edition longevity is your main justification for whether an army deserves the high and mighty honor of a codex, under your reason there would never be anything new.
By the fluff Deathwatch predate the founding of the SoB. To call them "n00bs" is elitist (I mean "1337"), you shouldn't think of yourself so highly, people might talk... wait they already do.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
For the same effort required to make DW into an actual army, GW could do 2 (or 3) Ruinous Powers books. There are lots more WE / DG / EC players who'd like a Chaos book, compared to the handful of DW players out there. For the same effort in updating GK, GW could update IG and SW. Again, there are a lot more IG and SW players compared to GK players.

I think a single Ruinous Power book covering all four is really all thats needed especially with the larger size Codex: Space Marines is done in. The same could be easily done with the Non-codex marines.

They're are more IG and SW players than GK players because GK are not as old as a fully supported army and they are all metal making them cost prohibitive.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Heck, I'd be willing to see DE get a little love before DW, and we all know *that* ain't gonna happen...

DE are next year. Best bet for DW in the unified Inquisition book is at best in 2010 or 2011.

aka_mythos wrote:DE are next year. Best bet for DW in the unified Inquisition book is at best in 2010 or 2011.

Here's to hoping!

I've been waiting to do an Ordo Xenos force for a long, long time now...

aka_mythos wrote:

Lots of stuff

Thank you for posting that.

malfred wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Lots of stuff

Thank you for posting that.

Thank you for summarising that.

dam you can bitch way to mutch in 3ed dere was a codex aproved for 3 or 4 chapeters of lost and the damed.