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Their head placment on (or should I say in front of) their shoulders limits their head movements drastically. They need to shift their entire body to look to the side clearly. Looking at their flying machines, they are set in them shoulder to shoulder limiting their "clear" field of vision to probably around a 60 degree arc. This also presents major obsticles in an urban battlefield where the ape would need to expose a large portion of its body just to see around a corner.

Gorillas also have next to no body fat so eating every meal becomes of paramount importance. This is why wild Gorillas spend most of their day scouring for food. This is not a desirable trait for field soldiers. The low body fat percentage also makes them swim about as well as rocks, again another obsticle for a field soldier.

Lastly, a Gorilla smoking a Cigar is like you smoking a Hot Dog in public. Gorillas are primarily herbavores and with the feeding point listed above, smoking a possible food source when so much is needed just to keep moving is silly.

@ HorrorFan

I gotta say "STOP" at this point. Sci-Fi fantasy is all about suspending "reality" and taking a large amount of cheese and whisking it into a large mix of "what could be!".....

All of the limiting factrs could be washed over with a healthy sprinkle of genetic engineering and cyber tech. Problem solved.

If you go down the road of trying to justify things on a basis of todays technology, philosophy and universal understanding, you can't play any sort of Sci-Fi roleplay or tabletop war game. I would suggest historical wargaming is where you would find more satisfaction.

I agree that the gorilla theme is not very creative, but thats my personal opinion, based on what I like and don't like, but it is as "plausible" as any fluff I've seen from any gaming background.

HorrorFan wrote:@Wolfen: I didn't realize all those were pointed at 40K. I'm no GW fan so I didn't put some of those together.

When Terminator was mentioned as space undead I thought the movie and not Necrons, but now that you mention it, how are Necrons so different from Therians?

For the space elves, pull your head from thinking 40K for a minute and you pretty much described Vulcans from Star Trek.

I think the problem was too brief a responce from Malfred. I don't instantly compare everything to 40K as I play a wide variety of games that IMHO are a bit more geared for people who may not need monthly releases and place more emphasis on the hobby aspect.

If you read the TITLE of this topic it is WH40k vs AT-43..... So will pull my head out in another topic to talk about Ape Physiology and/or Star trek.

Saludos!

HorrorFan wrote:Their head placment on (or should I say in front of) their shoulders limits their head movements drastically. They need to shift their entire body to look to the side clearly. Looking at their flying machines, they are set in them shoulder to shoulder limiting their "clear" field of vision to probably around a 60 degree arc. This also presents major obsticles in an urban battlefield where the ape would need to expose a large portion of its body just to see around a corner.

Gorillas also have next to no body fat so eating every meal becomes of paramount importance. This is why wild Gorillas spend most of their day scouring for food. This is not a desirable trait for field soldiers. The low body fat percentage also makes them swim about as well as rocks, again another obsticle for a field soldier.

Lastly, a Gorilla smoking a Cigar is like you smoking a Hot Dog in public. Gorillas are primarily herbavores and with the feeding point listed above, smoking a possible food source when so much is needed just to keep moving is silly.

How closely do you want your sci-fi to mirror reality, and how far? For me, some of
the fun of sci-fi is the dissonance created when something unusual is melded with
something familiar. Gorillas + philosophy = time travel control warriors. Awesome.

Jamaican accent, primitive technology, played for laughs = Jar Jar, say what?

Excuses like "Its magic" or "Genetic tampering" is a copout for poorly thought out concepts. The Gorillas head mobility cannot be explained away by genetics because its a physical trait still present in the minis.

I'm not saying its good or bad, I'm just saying people who are defending the fluff as a masterpiece are sorely mistaken.

Space monkies = Fanboy cheers. It's pretty cut & dry.

Horrorfan:

I could sure go for a tobacco salad around now!

I don't care about fluff in a game.

The most important thing is the rules, and the next is the models.

I can write my own fluff or steal it from SF easily enough.

This is like someone reading an issue of the Fantastic Four and announcing that it's poorly thought out because cosmic rays don't give you super powers. It's just weird. And pointless to continue.

@ HorrorFan

You know, the old line about "Magic" at least, is still persistant in todays modern world. There are thousands of phenomena that can not be explained by our modern "science", and I'd be willing to bet, if at any time in the future man really does push out to the stars, we'll find even more things that will be far in advance of our ability to reason its cause.

Even if you look at ourselves, as beings, we have no hard proven fact that supports evolution, or our origins....sure we have possibility and some hypothosis that have a plausible base, but thats it....no facts. So, if you wanted to be anal, our very presence on Earth is a thing of "Magic" or perhaps even "Genetic tampering"....who knows.

I think its unreasonable to expect a games company to go into the kind of depth you hint at in order to sell some miniatures....Hell, if the Bible won't do it, I wouldn't expect Rackham to and the Bible isn't even selling anything half as cool as a miniature!

My point is saying that Karmans were more well thought out creations than just a couple of guys who said "Gorillas in space suits would rock!" is silly.

Some people feel the need to defend their favorite game because they intertwine the game with their ego.

Others look objectively at games.

My comments were aimed at the people who believe Karmans were well thought out pieces if fiction.

When a world is created the writer also creates his own set of physics and laws. Using "Magic" as an explination is old and tired and has become a crutch more than an explination.
If you want to believe Karmans were well thought out fiction then go right on believing. I'm sure you'll find a group who agrees with you somewhere. If you want to look objectively at the debate, it isn't too hard to see that it was little more than a marketing ploy with the story as an afterthought.

Bottom line, you think their fiction is great stuff, good for you. You'll never sell me on that thought though. Then again I'm not the kind of gamer who gets all weak in the knees because company X releases a scantily clad female built like a playboy model who can kick the ass of any male in the galaxy.

I could sure go for a tobacco salad around now!

Would you smoke a cigar in a bubble helmit? (*See Yeti troops) Lets see the smug remark for that one.

While i would agree that Karmans probably came about because someone wanted to make gorillas with guns, most of your quibbles are rather minor in a sci-fi setting.

As far as diet is concerned, look at our current super health bars, and imagine how advanced those could become in the future. And once their dietary concerns are met, well, they have the free time to smoke. Hell maybe that cigar is how they attain their nutrition. "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

Swimming? it seems like gorillas are ineffectual swimmers, but with artificial gills and hover vehicles this seems a pretty pointless complaint. Alot of humans aren't great for swimming, but we made life jackets.

Flying machines could simply have cameras, they shouldn't need to move their head much at all.

And another way to look at it is that they resemble gorillas, they aren't gorillas. So who really knows what their range of head motion is, whether they can swim, what their dietary needs are or what their body fat percentage is. Even if their ancestors are gorillas, look at some of our ancestors, things change.


But anyway, its just a game, nitpicking over this gak kinda pointless, as none of its real and just reminds me of that MSTK song about how we should all just sit back and relax. Yeah, i realize that i just spent alot of time nitpicking, so its sort of a pot/kettle thing.

Sometimes, "well thought out" means more of a focus on character rather than science. It
will have to depend on your context. Games like AT-43, 40k and others don't rely on hard
science to sell their worlds, as we are drawn to the character and imagery of the various
armies. While a certain amount of it has to be believable (they still use rifles that resemble
our guns today with barrels, gun stocks and triggers), we're also looking to see if the
character of an army is believable.

So would a militaristic artificially engineered race of space monkeys with access to time
travel be philosophical about the meaning and purpose of life? I think so.

After having read the AT-43 books, and comparing the two games(though I havent played AT-43 yet!) I will post some of my opinions:

Fluff wise, 40k is superior IMO, why character. The UNA, the Red Block and the rest of the AT-43 factions do not feel as epic or as interesting as say the SPace Marines or the Tau, and I found a number of plot holes in the Karman book that I simply could not reconcile (maybe bad translation?)

While the 40k fluff, although much older resonates with a feeling of awesome and awe-inspiring (specially the new SM codex), plus every race is unique in their fluff and the way they are portrayed, and that adds to the character, not to mention the extensive background material that AT-43 simply does not posses at the moment

On the topic of strategy:

Though I have not played AT-43 yet, I will point out a number of aspects that make 40k a more indept strategy game, even before the game begins, and I will summ it up in two words: Assymetrical Warfare

What do I mean by this simple, in 40k you have ten factions, each with atrully unique style and a severe differentiation of unit roles and unit types, with counted and limited exceptions no two armies even have true equivalents in each other.

Examples of this:

Eldar vs IG. Speed vs Numbers. Precision vs excessive firepower.

Orks vs IG. Numbers vs Armor.

SM vs CSM. Controlled tactical precision vs Semi-random power house.

Tyranids vs Tau. Hordes vs Firepower. Speed vs Mobility. Short range powerhouse vs Long range powerhouse.

In 40k each army is so unique, that it is difficult to find two units in each army that fulfill exactly the same role, an Eldar Guardian is not the equivalent of a space marine, just as a terminator is not the equivalent of a battlesuit.

Each army caters to a completely different play style and unique challenges to overcome in each battle with very different tactics and strategies each time a game is played. Even with two armies built to battle each other two games never play the same.

Finally and this is the last point I will make:

Options, at the moment AT-43's range is limited, and it is barely starting to make a name for itself, and I will continue to see where it goes and wether it becomes as good as 40k, but in the meantime, lets look at the ridiculously large range of miniatures, and optiond present in the army lists of 40k at the moment.

The smallest range in 40k of a completely independent army is that of the tyranids, with even less options than the necrons, but they make up for this by being extremelly customizable. The Tau battlesuits take this to the extreme, and is very clear in the new iterations of the Orks, SM and Chaos Demon books. They are just bursting at the seams with options and posibilities that AT-43 simply cannot come to rival at the moment.

Thank you very much for reading my ridiculously large post

HorrorFan wrote:Would you smoke a cigar in a bubble helmit? (*See Yeti troops) Lets see the smug remark for that one.

Double your pleasure.

Also, since you're so stuck on Karmans, my rebuttal is simply Jokaro, 40K's super intelligent apes. "We're just like the AdMech, but Orangutans!"

Platuan4th wrote:
Also, since you're so stuck on Karmans, my rebuttal is simply Jokaro, 40K's super intelligent apes. "We're just like the AdMech, but Orangutans!"

Oh? When were they released? I must have missed that one.

Jokaro were Rogue Trader era, I believe. More of a background element than a 'faction.'

I judge game elements by the genre the game is based on. For 40k, I can accept a lot of stuff that wouldn't work in Heavy Gear: Ridiculously huge mecha, a focus on suped-up close-combat weapons, gothic cathedrals in space, etc.

AT-43 seems to be a definite Pulp/Retro look, but in space. Wasn't it originally going to be a WWII with Superscience type game?

As such, high-tech gorillas in power armor works for me.

HorrorFan wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
Also, since you're so stuck on Karmans, my rebuttal is simply Jokaro, 40K's super intelligent apes. "We're just like the AdMech, but Orangutans!"

Oh? When were they released? I must have missed that one.

They're a fluff race of highly advanced Orangutans that trades with the Imperium. They developed Digi-lasers. They've been mentioned in newer fluff, I'll try to find some for you. They were never an army, but DID have stats in Rogue Trader.

Balance wrote:
I judge game elements by the genre the game is based on. For 40k, I can accept a lot of stuff that wouldn't work in Heavy Gear: Ridiculously huge mecha, a focus on suped-up close-combat weapons, gothic cathedrals in space, etc.

AT-43 seems to be a definite Pulp/Retro look, but in space. Wasn't it originally going to be a WWII with Superscience type game?

As such, high-tech gorillas in power armor works for me.

The name AT-43 originally stood for Alternate Timeline 1943 or somesuch. As such, the Gorillas altered by German robots makes much more sense.

So, do these Karmas indulge in...
...

...

...gorilla warfare? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA okay not funny.

whats with the heatsinks?

keemperor wrote:After having read the AT-43 books, and comparing the two games(though I havent played AT-43 yet!) I will post some of my opinions:

Fluff wise, 40k is superior IMO, why character. The UNA, the Red Block and the rest of the AT-43 factions do not feel as epic or as interesting as say the SPace Marines or the Tau, and I found a number of plot holes in the Karman book that I simply could not reconcile (maybe bad translation?)

Well, there is a clear advantage, the number of years people one game has vs the other… however, epic is so subjective so I will not discuss weather it is or not, but c´mon, cannot say that Karman book have more plot holes compared to 40k? There are infinity and ridiculous plot holes in Space Marines, for example:

Gulliman accused Dorn and Russ for being heretics or such because they did not wanted to split their legions as HE (excuse was the codex) wanted… Right?

Sudenly… Calgar makes a fuss and ask everyone and such and such to create the Tyranid veterans or whatever they are called….

That’s a HUGE plot hole in order JUST to release a few models…. and Calgar should have been killed immediately for going in a different way to Codex

Second Example: We don’t like Squats…. ahhh well the Tyranids ate them….

keemperor wrote:
While the 40k fluff, although much older resonates with a feeling of awesome and awe-inspiring (specially the new SM codex), plus every race is unique in their fluff and the way they are portrayed, and that adds to the character, not to mention the extensive background material that AT-43 simply does not posses at the moment

One game is new and is in its infancy… the other is old but is a Fantasy setting in Space . At-43 has SO MUCH room to expand as much as 40K had in its moment…. There is so much juice to squeeze form the Therians for example

keemperor wrote:
On the topic of strategy:
Though I have not played AT-43 yet, I will point out a number of aspects that make 40k a more indept strategy game, even before the game begins, and I will summ it up in two words: Assymetrical Warfare

What do I mean by this simple, in 40k you have ten factions, each with atrully unique style and a severe differentiation of unit roles and unit types, with counted and limited exceptions no two armies even have true equivalents in each other.

Examples of this:

Eldar vs IG. Speed vs Numbers. Precision vs excessive firepower.

Orks vs IG. Numbers vs Armor.

SM vs CSM. Controlled tactical precision vs Semi-random power house.

Tyranids vs Tau. Hordes vs Firepower. Speed vs Mobility. Short range powerhouse vs Long range powerhouse.

In 40k each army is so unique, that it is difficult to find two units in each army that fulfill exactly the same role, an Eldar Guardian is not the equivalent of a space marine, just as a terminator is not the equivalent of a battlesuit.

Each army caters to a completely different play style and unique challenges to overcome in each battle with very different tactics and strategies each time a game is played. Even with two armies built to battle each other two games never play the same.

I will not talk about strategy either since you HAVE NOT played AT-43…. But I will comment on the Armies as cleary you think there are “only” 4 armies that always play the same.

TODAY are 4 armies in existence, UNA, Red Blok, Therians and Karmans and a Fifth in Development which are the Cogs, and a possibility (unconfirmed now how these units will work)of units as a Mercenary style or such which is the ONI corporation. There are ALSO other 3 factions speculated for the next few years after the Cogs

Each Army has a “Standard” army pattern and 4 different army patterns (each of them with the exception of the standard has a significant advantage or disadvantage)

Example:

Red Blok has the fame of being Horde Army… this “could” be do so depends if you actually build it that way. Red Blok can be roughly compared with IG as they are heavy but inaccurate hitters.

Standard Pattern: No advantage & no disadvantage, a bit of everything.
Frontline: Armored Vehicles heavy: Armored vehicles can control objectives but if losses ALL the vehicles the game is over
ARC: Horde army, more troops per unit BUT only one drill per unit
Supra: Elite Heavy, high morale and elite soldiers, but units which break are 100% lost
GenCol: New Faction, duplicate heroes (incl. abilities) but less capability of soldiers

So in total we are talking about that TODAY there are 20 different patterns. Cogs are coming so add at least another 5 and there are another 3 armies coming in the next years… that’s 8 armies not including the Oni Army so you will have one day 40 different and customizable factions, and if we keep only 5 factions/army, but this can be added and easily increased. As you can see AT-43 is ALSO very ASSYMETRICAL, not two games will be the same, and even between same army you have 5 DISTINCT factions that play act, and looks very different to each other.

keemperor wrote:
Finally and this is the last point I will make:

Options, at the moment AT-43's range …

Customization and range in sheer amount is undeniable in the side of 40 K BUT AT-43 the minis are 100% customizable, you can swap arms, torsos and heads ands even use other games gadgets and stuff… if you customize is because you paint and because they are PP they can be primed and painted over as well…

Thank you for reading my rant as well,
Cheers

Double posting double dragon

I will say fluff wise, 40K is superior.

They were quite clever in their dystopian ramshackle future from the get go, even if it is taken from many other sources and is basically "Fantasy... IN SPACCCCCCE!". It appeals to many people. Its not to say that AT-43 fluff is trash, but its a completely different thing than what we have for 40K. The AT-43 background is atleast quite a bit more original than anything GW has ever come up with. Again, not as detailed as 40K, but faaaaar more original. It gives a lot more room for growth of the fluff, and due to its infancy this is a good thing. Its not bad fluff, if a little rough around the edges. Especially considering that they took the "Alternate Timeline 43" and made it into something else to avoid giving up on early designs already made, they did a pretty good job in making it a bit more believable.

As far as gameplay is concerned, 40K simply cannot hold a candle to AT-43. I am an AT-43 convert because of this. I still play 40K and love the fluff and models, but the game play is sorely lacking. Indeed AT-43 doesn't have the variety that 40K does, but they never intended it to go beyond 8 factions where as GW is struggling to keep people happy with the numerous factions and trying to update them all. A playtesting nightmare. But even though 40K has more variety, don't mistake that for being subpar. AT-43 is what 40K should be if it were to ever have good rules. 40K is what AT-43 should be if they were to have better models.

In short, if you want good gameplay that does have a modicum of sense and solid mechanics, then AT-43 is your game hands down.

if you want good background and some nice models, but could give a rats ass about rules, then 40K is for you.

It really is quite that simple.

The best reason for not playing AT-43. http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=25799

Your new charges for overseas shipping and lack of playerbase who wants to pay.

Maybe some Space Monkies will air drop them for you because they are so awesome.

In short, if you want good gameplay that does have a modicum of sense and solid mechanics, then AT-43 is your game hands down.

if you want good background and some nice models, but could give a rats ass about rules, then 40K is for you.

It really is quite that simple.

And if you want all your rules in one book, and the ability to play with something as rare and odd as lets say... TREES on the table (not cannisters, barricades, and a poster map)... then play I dunno... any other game I can think of.

AT43 is a nice clean game. Very Chess-like.

But just like Chess, it's meant to be played on one type of surface out of the rulebook (unless you want to buy the new $75 dollar rulebook that covers playing in Antarctica)... and that surface happens to be the inside of a warehouse.

HorrorFan wrote:The best reason for not playing AT-43. http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=25799

Hmm yes, FFG dropping the AT-43 line is indeed doom for AT-43. I guess I should sell all of my AT-43 stuff so I can play with the hugely established and far more relevant Spinspur game instead...

Achilles wrote:

In short, if you want good gameplay that does have a modicum of sense and solid mechanics, then AT-43 is your game hands down.

if you want good background and some nice models, but could give a rats ass about rules, then 40K is for you.

It really is quite that simple.

And if you want all your rules in one book, and the ability to play with something as rare and odd as lets say... TREES on the table (not cannisters, barricades, and a poster map)... then play I dunno... any other game I can think of.

AT43 is a nice clean game. Very Chess-like.

But just like Chess, it's meant to be played on one type of surface out of the rulebook (unless you want to buy the new $75 dollar rulebook that covers playing in Antarctica)... and that surface happens to be the inside of a warehouse.

Well, I didnt say there wasnt any room for improvement. The tree issue does indeed suck.

As for the antartica or warehouse deal, well, if you cant have the imagination to use anything outside of those realms, then its your fault and not the fault of the game designers.

I play AT-43 quite frequently in an urban type board, and it functions quite well. I would say the game works best when it is filled with a lot of terrain and restricted avenues of LOS.

Agreed, but if you want to talk about how 'good' a rules system is, you have to look at it from all angles. What's in the book is neat and clean. What's left out of the book is another story.

Hellfury wrote:

HorrorFan wrote:The best reason for not playing AT-43. http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=25799

Hmm yes, FFG dropping the AT-43 line is indeed doom for AT-43. I guess I should sell all of my AT-43 stuff so I can play with the hugely established and far more relevant Spinspur game instead...

Where did you see doom? I'm sure it may still do fine if you can get it at a reasonable price, but in America I'd expect to see the price become a bit steep.

Also as a side note, I don't attach my ego to any one game I play so insulting a game I like does little to offend me.

HorrorFan wrote:

Hellfury wrote:

HorrorFan wrote:The best reason for not playing AT-43. http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=25799

Hmm yes, FFG dropping the AT-43 line is indeed doom for AT-43. I guess I should sell all of my AT-43 stuff so I can play with the hugely established and far more relevant Spinspur game instead...

Where did you see doom? I'm sure it may still do fine if you can get it at a reasonable price, but in America I'd expect to see the price become a bit steep.

Also as a side note, I don't attach my ego to any one game I play so insulting a game I like does little to offend me.

I don't see the prices changing, at least not according to what Jean Bey(the owner of Rackham) is hinted at about R's rebirth in November.

Another US distributor may take up AT43.

Platuan4th wrote:I don't see the prices changing, at least not according to what Jean Bey(the owner of Rackham) is hinted at about R's rebirth in November.

The price will change if you can't buy it from a LGS anymore and have to purchase it overseas. It's called international shipping.