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WH40K has good fluff.

I lol'ed.

Seriously, the game that birthed calling background fiction "fluff"? Mah spaz menz will kill ur spaz elvz and then we fight spaz orkz and robot menz! Roll more dicez!

As opposed to Space Monkies and humans,humans, and aparently humans.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:As opposed to Space Monkies and humans,humans, and aparently humans.

Gorillas are apes, not monkeys, but thanks for playing. Also, you forgot Squid-faced Aliens and Evil Corporation™ humans.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:As opposed to Space Monkies and humans,humans, and aparently humans.

As opposed to 40k, which has..

IG- Humans
Space Marines - humans
Dark angels - humans
Black templar - humans
Space wolves - humans
Witch hunters - humans
DaemonHunters - humans
Chaos marines - humans (yeah, if you're going to call therians human, chaos marines are humans
Eldar- space elves, meh, just humans with pointy ears really...
Tau - Basically humans as well, they are just blue humans really.
Orks, basically green humans
Daemons- ok, not human
Tyranid - starship troopers bugs.
Necron - undead humans.

alot more factions, most of which are human.

40k has intersting fluff, mostly in scope and depth. Goes way too over he top for my taste, and that's sayin a lot coming form a grade b sci-fi afficianado.

ferrous wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:As opposed to Space Monkies and humans,humans, and aparently humans.

As opposed to 40k, which has..

IG- Humans
Space Marines - humans
Dark angels - humans
Black templar - humans
Space wolves - humans
Witch hunters - humans
DaemonHunters - humans
Chaos marines - humans (yeah, if you're going to call therians human, chaos marines are humans
Eldar- space elves, meh, just humans with pointy ears really...
Tau - Basically humans as well, they are just blue humans really.
Orks, basically green humans
Daemons- ok, not human
Tyranid - starship troopers bugs.
Necron - undead humans.

alot more factions, most of which are human.

But the RULEs for each are totally different, regardless of wether they are humanoid or not.

I wasn't focusing on the actual Races involved, just the fact that there are less than five different armies available, whereas 40K has 14 different armies with lots of sub- variations possible from most of them.

5 armies makes for a boring game, IMHO, especially when they are all "painted" the same for every incarnation out there.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:But the RULEs for each are totally different, regardless of wether they are humanoid or not.

I wasn't focusing on the actual Races involved, just the fact that there are less than five different armies available, whereas 40K has 14 different armies with lots of sub- variations possible from most of them.

5 armies makes for a boring game, IMHO, especially when they are all "painted" the same for every incarnation out there.

The game's still developing. There's going to be at least 8 races done, each with 5-6 different ways to build an army/company(and which company you build matters, as it gives different Advantages/Disadvantages, and different sections of what's allowed), and with the Cogs(unlike others so far) and probably more of the new armies, which Company you build allows you access to different heroes, unlike 40K armies(Hey look, I have Chronus, Khan, and Kantor in my army!). As well, each book has different abilities and rules, as well as different play styles. As a whole, I put much more thought of what goes in an AT-43 company than a 40K army, as there's no real "must have" units like 40K and the 1500/500 Assault/Reinforcement split makes you think a bit more than HQ, 2 Troops, whatever else.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

ferrous wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:As opposed to Space Monkies and humans,humans, and aparently humans.

As opposed to 40k, which has..

IG- Humans
Space Marines - humans
Dark angels - humans
Black templar - humans
Space wolves - humans
Witch hunters - humans
DaemonHunters - humans
Chaos marines - humans (yeah, if you're going to call therians human, chaos marines are humans
Eldar- space elves, meh, just humans with pointy ears really...
Tau - Basically humans as well, they are just blue humans really.
Orks, basically green humans
Daemons- ok, not human
Tyranid - starship troopers bugs.
Necron - undead humans.

alot more factions, most of which are human.

But the RULEs for each are totally different, regardless of wether they are humanoid or not.

I wasn't focusing on the actual Races involved, just the fact that there are less than five different armies available, whereas 40K has 14 different armies with lots of sub- variations possible from most of them.

5 armies makes for a boring game, IMHO, especially when they are all "painted" the same for every incarnation out there.

I guess.

Remember that each army has three different rules sets in the Rackham games. So that
makes it 15 RULES... They play differently.

malfred wrote:I guess.

Remember that each army has three different rules sets in the Rackham games. So that
makes it 15 RULES... They play differently.

5 sets. You're forgetting the Generic Company and those added in Frostbite.

Oops.

I didn't know that. New stuff!

malfred wrote:Oops.

I didn't know that. New stuff!

Yeah, Frostbite has new Characters, new Units(including Mobile Support units), new Company builds, new terrain rules, new weapon variants(Nucleus Cannon 2.0), Civilians(free mobile R.P.!), and more.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

But the RULEs for each are totally different, regardless of wether they are humanoid or not.

I wasn't focusing on the actual Races involved, just the fact that there are less than five different armies available, whereas 40K has 14 different armies with lots of sub- variations possible from most of them.

5 armies makes for a boring game, IMHO, especially when they are all "painted" the same for every incarnation out there.

Yeah, and the rules for the armies in at-43 are all exactly the same? troll much?

And yes they're prepainted, but nothing is stopping you from repainting them. In reality what it does mean is that instead of fighting against mostly unpainted armies (or just primed figures) like i seem to be when i play 40k, i play against armies that are at least pre-painted in at-43. (not to mention they have different prepaints for the same models in frostbite)


Lulz, could it be you're a bit biased because of your occupation: Miniature Painter

Maybe your problem is that you don't like magnets very much, ferrous.

This thread needs a title change to Nerd Rage 5: The Ragening.

ferrous wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:As opposed to Space Monkies and humans,humans, and aparently humans.

As opposed to 40k, which has..

IG- Humans
Space Marines - humans
Dark angels - humans
Black templar - humans
Space wolves - humans
Witch hunters - humans
DaemonHunters - humans
Chaos marines - humans (yeah, if you're going to call therians human, chaos marines are humans
Eldar- space elves, meh, just humans with pointy ears really...
Tau - Basically humans as well, they are just blue humans really.
Orks, basically green humans
Daemons- ok, not human
Tyranid - starship troopers bugs.
Necron - undead humans.

alot more factions, most of which are human.

You're so right! Everything in 40k is a human!

Eldar - Humans with pointy ears
Dark Eldar - Humans with spikes
Orks - Green humans.. yup.. nothing about them that makes them not humans...
Tau - Blue Humans
Necrons - Undead robot humans
Daemons - Humans from the Warp
Tyranids - Humans that look like reptile bugs
Gun Drones - Humans that are small, disklike robots
Rocks - Humans that are small and hard and not alive

Kilkrazy wrote:Why are space monkeys or space gorillas stupid and laughable?

Who finds Planet of the Apes laughable?

Humans are descended from gorillas (or at least, from the same kind of ancestral ape-like creature.)

I can't stand either of the Planet of the Apes films I'm afraid.

ferrous wrote:

Yeah, and the rules for the armies in at-43 are all exactly the same?

No, I'm assuming they're not (I've played one game of At-43) but my point was there are a fraction of them compared to 40K.

troll much?

Cool your jets, Dude. I posted in this thread long ago and have pretty much kept up with it. Bait much?

Lulz, could it be you're a bit biased because of your occupation: Miniature Painter

Yeah, because I love to paint and see painted armies, not because it makes me money. My clients wouldn't even concieve of going to pre-painted stuff (crap). Because they too like a unique and well painted army. Yes, you can re-paint them, but yo ucan also buy little green army men and paint them up too, I don't like that idea much either.

I'm sure there are advantages to using pre-painted (as you mentioned) but it takes away from half (or more) of the reasons I play 40K. I model/paint infinitely more than I get to play.

As Nurglyboy said, the main appeal of GW games is as a Hobby.

AT-43 is a game. Warhammer 40,000 is a hobby. 40k involves collecting, modelling, converting, painting and playing. AT-43 involves Collecting and playing.

I know the game is yet young (cast minds back to early 40k...the races were Eldar, Marines, IG, Orks, Squats and Chaos) but I don't see it having the same long term appeal, as it requires less time investment.

Now that does have a certain appeal (no waiting to field your new unit) but I feel it is limited.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:As Nurglyboy said, the main appeal of GW games is as a Hobby.

AT-43 is a game. Warhammer 40,000 is a hobby. 40k involves collecting, modelling, converting, painting and playing. AT-43 involves Collecting and playing.

I know the game is yet young (cast minds back to early 40k...the races were Eldar, Marines, IG, Orks, Squats and Chaos) but I don't see it having the same long term appeal, as it requires less time investment.

Now that does have a certain appeal (no waiting to field your new unit) but I feel it is limited.

So in your opinion: Only collecting is NOT a hobby?

What about numismatic? is not a hobby?

Or, on the other hand you mean that, ONLY doing the things with your hands can be classified as a hobby?

So playing guitar (without actually building it) is NOT a hobby?


I think this type of thinking is limited, it seems to be only you are looking for ANYTHING only to hate the prepainted minis. Finally, there is nothing REALLY limiting in converting AND/OR painting the At-43 minis, actually I am doing it myself full-repaint... and in many ways the quality of the painting is austanding, way better that many of other games´player, who only primer the minis

agreed AT-43 is new, and the sheer amount of minis is not as huge as 40k but the appealing is a different matter, the rules are good, the tactics are better the whole systems, feels natural...

And one last thing, I do not hate 40k

The point I was making was that AT-43 may have a more limited attraction than 40k.

Now, it's rules might be a lot better, I don't know, haven't played it.

But even when I am sick to the back teeth of Fantasy or 40k (it happens!) I can go paint some stuff, read some novels, convert a new model or what have you. Because of the range of activites involved with the GW games, it is rare indeed I am not active to some degree.

With AT-43 being very much off the peg, what sustains someone when local gaming fails to satisfy. THIS DOES NOT STOP IT BEING A GOOD GAME.

I just don't feel it can really be as attention holding as a game with a Hobby behind it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I just don't feel it can really be as attention holding as a game with a Hobby behind it.

I think Nazgul(the Easy AT-43 creator) and Tracy Constatine(creator/writer/artist of AT-43: The Comic) would disagree with you, as would the AT-43 forumites, especially the guy with 50K+ points of each faction(there's a "Show me you collection" thread going on over there that's gotten insane).

As for not having a Hobby attached, check out Le Dragon du Nord. Better than most 40K players I've seen and as good/better than a lot of people that post here. Also, there's that whole Legends line of the Resin/Metal Confrontation stuff as well as the plastic multi-part, unpainted stuff coming out next year. Yeah, nothing Hobby-like there.

At-43 The Comic, a forum member who has more money than sense, and a single website indicate some level of Hobby, but can it really be compared to the one involved with GW stuff?

The vast majority of AT-43 players won't repaint. Nor will they convert. Some will get the comic, sure, but I doubt it's circulation is terribly high.

GW have the Black Library to sustain you. They have several company sponsored and highly prodigious painting competitions.

I fear what you have pointed out is just a collection of hardcore nutters you find in any walk of life. I've heard of people painting up RISK counters, and thats still not exactly a hobby.

Plastic Multipart etc, coming out next year. This is Rackham we are discussing. I'll believe it if and when the stuff is actually release.

I have heard this "hobby" argument/disparagement quite often from GW (and even some PP fans or Confrontation 3.x fans) in response to their perceptions of CoaR and AT-43. On one level I understand that the advent of a line of entirely plastic, much less pre-painted plastic was startling to many, um "Hobbyists." Personally, it just strikes me as yet another attempt by geeks to differentiate and (to a certain degree) disparage another set of (supposed lesser) geeks a la the Geek Hierarchy .

I play AT-43
I repaint and touch-up some of my models
I build terrain
I build game tables
I roll dice
Move little soldiers around the table
Talk smack to my opponents
I enjoy the fluff
I collect figures

But, what I hear is that because my modeling-to-play ratio is smaller that yours, I am not entitled to use the word "Hobby" to refer to my minis gaming pastime.

Huh... Okay, I'll survive.

I like AT-43, I find the rules more satisfying. 40K gets more dumbed down with every edition. Plus GW doesnt know anything at all about this word called "balance" probably because they dont know anything about this word called "playtesting". Maybe thats 2 words?

I also like that I can log on to a forum, ask rule questions and get "official" answers, and FAQs updated more than once every 2-3 years.

As for pre-paints, they are better than most GW armies I have seen, I hate "the hobby" anyway. I spend loads of cash paying people to paint. Its nice to cut out the middle man.

40K is popular, but alot of people simply have too much money invested to even think about trying another game.

AT-43 will continue to grow, as will Infinity, I hope the competition will be good for everyone, but I dont think GW can learn.

Ever looked at the company earnings on the GW finiancial site? Say what you want about Rackham, but GW sales peaked in 2004.

I find this whole thread funny, as here we are, gamers with more than one choice for games, bickering over why one is not as good as the other.

They are different games.

and

You can play both and enjoy aspects of both of them.

One does not have to be "better" than another. I'm just happy to have a choice, and I choose to play both (along with other games such as CBT).

The difference is that 40K is a hobby, played by mature hobbyists who have an appreciation for art and storytelling, while AT-47 is a children's game with space monkeys.

Totally different.


NARD RAJE!
I HATS UR SPASE ALEINS! MIN R BETTR!

Okay. One. Last. Time.

Go back and read my previous posts. No, not just the bits you want to read before flying off the handle, read all of them.

At any point, did I state 40k or Fantasy as being superior across the board? No, no I didn't. At any point, did I suggest or state AT-43 is a load of spank? Hey, look, I actually pointed out that was not my opinion!

What I did state was that a comparisson between the game of AT-43 and the game of Warhammer 40,000 was a flawed comparisson, because being involved in 40k generally goes far beyond just playing it. I then pointed out that AT-43 doesn't have the same level of hobby behind it. See the difference there?

I made statements about my own opinion.

BUt of course, you need to take those blood pressure pills for a reason, so feel free to once again only read the bits of my posts you find offensive, why the hell not?

It looks like your GW fanboi reputation precedes you Mad Doc, which is a shame because you're right. 40k's toy soldier building and painting element is integral to the game and more obvious, much more so than it is for the other mainstream GW games. His is not the case for AT-43 where converting and painting the models is optional, something extra you can do.

AT-43’s strength lies in the game mechanics/play, which on every level is better than 40k’s

Comparisons of fluff are slightly unfair when comparing the nearly 30 year old 40k to other games released in the last few years. 40k’s volume of fluff is its greatest strength.

The reasons i changed over to AT-43:

The gameplay/tactics in AT-43 is much better than WH40K.

I dont have to play against unpainted figures or half built models when i play AT-43.

As to fluff , WH40K is gothic /AT-43 is more hard sci-fi.
They are different...but i still miss the IG beastmen.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Okay. One. Last. Time.

Go back and read my previous posts. No, not just the bits you want to read before flying off the handle, read all of them.

At any point, did I state 40k or Fantasy as being superior across the board? No, no I didn't. At any point, did I suggest or state AT-43 is a load of spank? Hey, look, I actually pointed out that was not my opinion!

What I did state was that a comparison between the game of AT-43 and the game of Warhammer 40,000 was a flawed comparison, because being involved in 40k generally goes far beyond just playing it. I then pointed out that AT-43 doesn't have the same level of hobby behind it. See the difference there?

I made statements about my own opinion.

But of course, you need to take those blood pressure pills for a reason, so feel free to once again only read the bits of my posts you find offensive, why the hell not?

Sorry Grotsnik.
I was just messing around.

I'm actually not a big fan of the "one faction is barely even trying and could totally wipe everyone out if they weren't so busy" thing that the robot humans seem to have. The Necrons, Tyranids, and Orks all have something like this in 40K, but combined with the power of the Imperium it sort of balances itself out.

I don't mind the Space Monkeys (but gorillas aren't monkeys! Seriously, do you think that's relevant?), but I hear they're a bunch of environmentalists or something?

I like the two regular human factions okay; cheesy as hell maybe, but so is 40K. I don't even mind the robot-humans, apart from their aperently being of a completely different power scale than the rest of the game's forces. They sound a little more flavorful than most robot armies.

Not a big fan of the pre-paints, but they're not a travesty. At least you don't see as many unpainted armies.

Zellack wrote:hard sci-fi.

*Arrogant nerd-scoff*