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Augustus wrote:Yes the codex is over powered, but not necesarilly where some folks are suggesting.

The codex is overpowered because it breaks the core mission equation with things no other dex can do.

Im talking about troop choices splitting into 2 squads and about non scoring units becoming scoring. With the missions about KP 1/3rd of the time and OBJs 2/3rds of the time creating an army that can dynamically morph its KP and potentially double its scoring unit count is unfair. No one else can do that, and suposedly the new missions were for balance of army (emphasis on troops) but the new marine dex has already broken the equation.

Quoted for truth. What's worse, they pay no points for these very powerful tactical abilities.

Of course, when I find something overpowered, I have a "Join 'Em" Philosophy.

My basic problem is how the new casualty rules interact with marine units.

First of all there is the Jack of all trades syndrome that marine designers are constrained by. I.E. Never really good at anything, never really bad at anything, mediocre at everything. This means that marines have to be spendy points-wise. Now to get that "flexibility" everyone is always talking about you need to take the special and heavy weapons. Which, once you get it into a "torrent of fire" situation, means those are the models that die FIRST. Bye bye flexibility. The fact that that heavy bolter is free is nice, but free doesn't help you when it's dead. (The whole fluff explanation for this rule is completely refuted by the marines' fluff about the weaponry of a squad. The rulebook says only the bearers are trained in the use of a weapon, the Marine Codex says that a marine is trained in the use of all weapons available in their armoury.)

I agree that last editions method, which guaranteed that those two weapons were always last dead might have been a bit much, this is too much a swing in the other direction. I may seriously just sell my marines due to the core rules.

Now if the rules were to have swung only halfway, say making 'groups' of saves based on whether or not a model had it's base wargear or not, THAT would have toned down on the problem last edition had without creating the problem this edition has; You could still pick which 'specialist' died, but their wounds couldn't be ablated by the rest of the squad.

EDIT: By the way I didn't vote. There was no option: "The Army's power is severly reduced by the rules."

Augustus wrote:A basic marine sucks? Are you kidding me.

I don't think you get it.

Yeah, a basic marine sucks. He loses in assault versus dedicated assault units. He loses at shooting versus dedicated shooting units. A basic marine can out-shoot a crappy shooting unit, like Ork Boyz, and a basic marine can out-assault a crappy assault unit, like a Crisis Suit, but he dies to Boyz in the assault and he dies to Crisis Suits while shooting.

This was the problem with Marines before. No matter what you were fighting against, it was probably better than you. This codex makes marines better by actually giving you dedicated units.

However, a Marine can reliably....

Outpunch a shooty unit, Outshoot a punchy unit etc.

Basic Tactical Marines offer flexibility. Start adding in other elements from the list, and you are soon in a position to fully exploit your opponents weakness.

Well, I think its not overpowered. Its still difficult with Marines to battle top tier armies.

Yes it is overpowered... but only in comparison to the BA, DA, SW and perhaps the BT. Build an assault squad with any other marine codex and you are paying 300 + points for it... 2 plasma pistols and a powerfist and it comes out to 245 for SM. Bikes same deal.
Attack bikes, cheaper. Tell me in what way Ravenwing is superior to a marine playing Khan with hoard of bikes? Transports and some vehicles are definitely cheaper at base level.

The GW arguement of they are different is BS. They are all marines with differences in organization or philosophy but their vehicles don't suffer from overcrowding other than GW made a change to capacity in the new SM codex and refuse to change it.

I thought with DA they ripped out all the unique features except for RW and DW and as far as RW they emasulated it with a flawed Samiel. The BA got rid of the fiddly rules on Death Company. BT is okay. SW is just dated. In light of the new SM codex, they are worthless except in limited builds.

As far as other races, they are powerful. 4s at every stat, 3+ armor, battle squads for troops. They are not as focused as others but yes they are powerful. Sterngard and Vanguard as well as command and honor guard are all nice to a degree but you still pay for them. For all this flexibility, you pay. A necron warrior has less I and less flexibility and you pay 20 pts for it to match what a tactical marine can do at 16 pts. Sure they have THEY WILL BE BACK but they also suffer from mono-weapon troops.

The biggest advantages are AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR and COMBAT TACTICS or the options they get. Do I think some of those options are broken? Yes, Shrike's is the worst... it neutralizes armies like Tau that count on firepower, it give T4 Sv3+ marines something that eldar and tyranid troops only get if their Sv 4+ and the majority are T3.

Overall, this will last 3 to 6 months until GW breaks a new codex in an attempt to over compensate for 5th edition, orks or marines... Then we will all whine about that codex until the cycle is renewed.

GW does not stand for playtested balance. Like most english rules I have played, they are about feel and fluff. The problem is when the cost gets prohibitive and "your" army/codex gets unplayable, those with less means will stop playing perhaps even altogether rather than feed the GW cash trough.

So, when is the joint BLood Angel and Dark Angel Bra Burning of Solidarity happening?

Where's the option: Don't play SM's never will?

I have way more fun playing GW's 'Bastard' armies than I ever would playing their favorite child.

asugradinwa wrote:Maybe it isn't overpowered. Maybe every other codex in UNDERPOWERED!

I am running with this as well; Once the rest of the codex's move up to speed with the New SM Dex all will be gravey.
However, at this time they have soo many options and so many things that give them an edge, its not even funny.

There are even little upgrades that's not even noticed which boots their stock. i.e. Demolisher Cannon is barrage now?!? Say what?!
But yeah they are OP right now, but once everyone get their new dex all will be gravy. GW is trying to take things to another level of play, not just modifying or slightly upgrading dexes.

Of course all this is just my humble opinion.

Mau Smash

Mausama wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:Maybe it isn't overpowered. Maybe every other codex in UNDERPOWERED!

I am running with this as well; Once the rest of the codex's move up to speed with the New SM Dex all will be gravey.
However, at this time they have soo many options and so many things that give them an edge, its not even funny.

There are even little upgrades that's not even noticed which boots their stock. i.e. Demolisher Cannon is barrage now?!? Say what?!
But yeah they are OP right now, but once everyone get their new dex all will be gravy. GW is trying to take things to another level of play, not just modifying or slightly upgrading dexes.

Of course all this is just my humble opinion.

Mau Smash

We'll see. Things looked that way in the 3rd/4th transition too. At the end of 3rd the IG and 'Nids got highly customisable traits rules. The marines followed at the beginning of 4th. It was a cool idea. It wouldn't have been bad if they had followed through with all armies, but they didn't.

Now we have the 4th/5th transition. Orks and now marines have gotten really powerful, characterful codexes. If all the others are brought to this level and balance it will be cool. Unfortunately I don't hold out much hope. If they follow pattern we'll see them decide these two were too good and decide to cut back the power curve and instead of changing the problem, they'll "tone down" the rest of the armies.

That is my fear.

In what way is Ravenwing better? Well you have more flexibility with your squads. At the lower points limits you can take more squads, and still combat squad them. Your Attached Attack Bike operates independantly, always good for the Multi-Melta. The Land Speeders attached to the RWAS is scoring.

And there are ways Khan's Army is better.

I personally think its 6:5 and pick 'em.

As for the Demolisher Cannon being Barrage- I think most folks have chalked that one up to a misprint... It only says Barrage in the summary in the back, not in its actual rules listing on Pg 80.

Breton wrote: As for the Demolisher Cannon being Barrage- I think most folks have chalked that one up to a misprint... It only says Barrage in the summary in the back, not in its actual rules listing on Pg 80.

I hope this was a typo; I was getting housed by this in my game yesterday. I asked to look it up, and he did show me the back of the book.

Ah well.. Live and learn.

Mau Smash.

I thought it was funny how the OP didn't give any options to those who disagree with him. It was like saying "Well you should appreciate that the new SM dex just ruined your really cool, but still relatively powerful trait army in exchange for a vanilla army that has the option of either being way overpowered, or sucky, but never cool."

I'd say I'm sorry that this sounds rude, but my parents always told me that lying was wrong.

I got so pissed when the new dex came out, that I am sorely tempted to find the cheesiest build I can find, go to a tourney, and start killing stuff.

Yay, we almost have hit and run, but whats that? it means that the entire squad has a chance of being wiped out? Oh...

Yay we have specialist, sternguard are great, to much so. Vanguard are awsome, and cool, and would be balanced if they reduced the point cost by about 5 points per model.

Yay, vindicators can't move (edit) 12" (/edit) and shoot anymore!!!

I'll just stop before I get in trouble

Shrike78 wrote:Yay, we almost have hit and run, but whats that? it means that the entire squad has a chance of being wiped out? Oh...

What? Space Marines have ATSKNF, remember? It means they can't be wiped out like that. It's sorta their shtick.

Shrike78 wrote:Yay we have specialist, sternguard are great, to much so. Vanguard are awsome, and cool, and would be balanced if they reduced the point cost by about 5 points per model.

This is true, actually. With Assault Marines as cheap as they are, Vanguard have no excuses.

Shrike78 wrote:Yay, vindicators can't move and shoot anymore!!!

That'd be a typo. Never trust the quick reference pages. They're full of lies.

MinMax wrote:

Shrike78 wrote:Yay, we almost have hit and run, but whats that? it means that the entire squad has a chance of being wiped out? Oh...

What? Space Marines have ATSKNF, remember? It means they can't be wiped out like that. It's sorta their shtick.

Yeah, and taking a few extra wounds on 3+ armour saves isn't much assuming you do get chased down.

black templars are much more fun, and dark eldar are even more fun.

Mausama wrote:

Breton wrote: As for the Demolisher Cannon being Barrage- I think most folks have chalked that one up to a misprint... It only says Barrage in the summary in the back, not in its actual rules listing on Pg 80.

I hope this was a typo; I was getting housed by this in my game yesterday. I asked to look it up, and he did show me the back of the book.

Ah well.. Live and learn.

Mau Smash.

Until GW says its a typo, its not a typo. Since all barrage tanks can now direct fire, there is no loss playing that it works both ways. How do you know the typo isn't in the Pg 80 rules and not the summery page?

Jayden63 wrote:Until GW says its a typo, its not a typo. Since all barrage tanks can now direct fire, there is no loss playing that it works both ways. How do you know the typo isn't in the Pg 80 rules and not the summery page?

It may not be a typo but regardless, the actual written rules take precedence over summaries until told otherwise, so the barrage in this case is assumed to be the mistake based on that rule.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Until GW says its a typo, its not a typo. Since all barrage tanks can now direct fire, there is no loss playing that it works both ways. How do you know the typo isn't in the Pg 80 rules and not the summery page?

It may not be a typo but regardless, the actual written rules take precedence over summaries until told otherwise, so the barrage in this case is assumed to be the mistake based on that rule.

Where does it state that? I checked my rule book, it says nothing of the sort. I checked my codex, didn't see it say to ignore the summery. I checked my FAQ, no mention of it there either. Just asking for all those 14 year olds who haven't been in the hobby for 10 years.

Jayden63 wrote:Where does it state that? I checked my rule book, it says nothing of the sort. I checked my codex, didn't see it say to ignore the summery. I checked my FAQ, no mention of it there either. Just asking for all those 14 year olds who haven't been in the hobby for 10 years.

It says it ad nauseum all throughout the FAQs they have published at the moment but the one that sticks out most prominently in my mind is the Imperial Guard one where they made like 6 rulings that the proper rules entries were correct and the summary was incorrect.

I say "Overpowered". It's insulting because it says "Look at this, buy these guys...we made them break the rules and now they're cool again!!!"

3++ saves on normal troops=ridiculous.
Cheaper Drop Pods with more capacity= "Buy our new model!"
USRs army-wide= easily abused
no caveate for mixing Specail Characters from different Chapters= slowed

We just started a league at our store with about 10 people, 7 of them are new marine players.

The new Space Marines book reminds me of the High Elves. They used to suck so GW just opened the vault and let them have everything in it. Can't wait to see what they do with Guard. I hope I can bring myself to play them if it's too crazy.

I think the new codex and the old codex are about equal on a power level. Most of the things that I hated about marines are gone and now I have a few new things to hate.

Gone are: assault cannons of doom, 6x 5 man las plas, 4 librarians with FotD, or FotA, whirlwinds with 18 minefields on the table in a 6 turn game. Super chaplains.

Now: combat tactics, combat squads, 3+ invul saves. These are the 3 things that bother me.

To me, it is a wash.

I want more options.

this happens every time a new codex comes out. everyone claims its too hard to beat and its unfair, until they find out how to beat it. this happened when the new ork codex came out. stop complaining and find a way to beat them.

Why the &*^% is this posted in YMDC? Garbage.

G

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Augustus wrote:Yes the codex is over powered, but not necesarilly where some folks are suggesting.

The codex is overpowered because it breaks the core mission equation with things no other dex can do.

Im talking about troop choices splitting into 2 squads and about non scoring units becoming scoring. With the missions about KP 1/3rd of the time and OBJs 2/3rds of the time creating an army that can dynamically morph its KP and potentially double its scoring unit count is unfair. No one else can do that, and suposedly the new missions were for balance of army (emphasis on troops) but the new marine dex has already broken the equation.

Quoted for truth. What's worse, they pay no points for these very powerful tactical abilities.

Of course, when I find something overpowered, I have a "Join 'Em" Philosophy.

Dito, Painting Sternguard and Kantor like everyone else...

DAaddict wrote:...
Overall, this will last 3 to 6 months until GW breaks a new codex in an attempt to over compensate for 5th edition, orks or marines... Then we will all whine about that codex until the cycle is renewed. ...

BINGO!

I was thinking if they wrote the next Eldar codex like they wrote this Marine one then every Phoenix lord would change the army structure and they could all come together or mix and match with the aspects and they would make their apsect scoring units, Karandaras would make whole armies outflank, Fuegan Would mastercraft all ELdar Melta weapons and FLamers, Jainzar would give whole armies hit and run and rerolled fleet, and there would be other global exception powers and...

Hey that might be nice! I can hope, you know, for a (Marine) like codex in another 4 years...

Or end up like orks, broken for nearly a generation.

This Marine stuff is way over the top.

sourclams wrote:

Augustus wrote:A basic marine sucks? Are you kidding me.

I don't think you get it.

Yeah, a basic marine sucks. He loses in assault versus dedicated assault units. He loses at shooting versus dedicated shooting units. A basic marine can out-shoot a crappy shooting unit, like Ork Boyz, and a basic marine can out-assault a crappy assault unit, like a Crisis Suit, but he dies to Boyz in the assault and he dies to Crisis Suits while shooting.

This was the problem with Marines before. No matter what you were fighting against, it was probably better than you. This codex makes marines better by actually giving you dedicated units.

Uh, no they dont, they easily outfight most assault units. I have seen tac marines destroy hormagaunts units on their charge, seen a single character and a ret2 marines devastate an entire 20 roughriders, seen a single pod deployed squad of 10 marines break an entire center of an IG gunline in 1 melee phase, seen kroot completely bounce off marines when they charged them at 2 to 1 odds. They're awesome.

I think you should play more games, my experience shows me completely the opposite.

I've seen Fire Warriors beat off Raveners. Are you going to field an assault Fire Warrior army versus Nidzilla any time soon?

Marines do not easily outfight most assault units. Genestealers will kill Marines. Khorne Berzerkers will easily kill Marines. Rough Riders will double-plus-easily kill Marines, and the fact that you somehow had "a single guy and a ret2" devastate 20 rough riders just emphasizes my point that you're arguing the exceptions, and not the rule.

I play almost exclusively against Marines, Necrons, Tau, and Eldar with my Imperial Guard. There is no basic Marine-heavy list that I'm afraid of. Imperial Guard vaporize basic Marines in vast swathes. With 4th ed rules, the basic marine sucked.

sourclams wrote:I've seen Fire Warriors beat off Raveners.

This is almost sig-worthy...