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What do you think?

nope.

It has lots of Vehicles, Vehicles are fragile for the points. Land Raider spam is expensive, and just another power-build. It has lots of HQ, HQ are expensive and (I believe) only Marneus has Eternal Warrior. Jump-pack HQ are toned down.

It has lots of MEQ infantry, all priced properly with nice variety. 3+, 2+, etc. Only thing it is missing is multi-wound infantry which they (the designers) seem to avoid save for HQ and Crises Suits, Obliterators, Ogryns, etc.

If anything it is lacking variety in HQ, with so much emphasis on Special Characters, but it makes Chaos and other list HQs more imposing/ viable than they would otherwise. Including, say, Black Templar who can still take 200 point Chaplains.

I think it is the best Space Marine book yet, and one of the better codices (it makes Tyranids, for example, start to look dated). Lots of variety to fill a tournament list. If you want to play Apoc or whatever you can always go Drop Pods or build something around your HQ.

None of the poll results apply. Its not overpowered but it has less options (due to lack of traits) than the 4th ed codex.

Armour 13 walkers....noone else has them not 6 in one army anyway.
Deepstrikers that assault after they deepstrike....noone else has them, not even chaos daemon armies. I guess Vanguard are just better at deepstriking than DAEMONS.
Sternguard...a unit that is so good it demands to be taken=overpowered
Transports with increased capacity....noone else has them
Hit and Run as an armywide ability....?!?!? (and in an army not renowned for raw speed either)
3+ invulnerable saves handed out like candy, gimmie a break.
Vindicators that are unaffected by difficult terrain, ONLY 10 pts!
Psykers that make Eldar look like autistic children.
FOUR 200+ pt special characters with a grand total of 9 Specials....TWO WHOLE PAGES. 10 if you count Chronus (Eldar got what? 2? and phoenix lords....)
Improved weapon stats over certain counterparts in other codeii....when they were fine to begin with.

Unbeatable, not really, they're still just marines.

Overpowered? Absolutly. Not as a whole codex, but looking at units?? Most definatly.

GW sure knows how to sell a new codex. Cant wait to see the Imperial Guard if they follow this trend.

No, stop whining.

Im not whining, I actually PLAY marines. Have played them since the late 80's.

The codex is over the top. It's a candy store of powerful things that noone can do UNLESS they play marines.

disagreement is simple denial.

I agree Stern guard are savage but vanguard are overpriced, and a disappointment, you need to pay extra for packs and you can't fleet or run with them if you try and assault. You basically need a perfect scatter roll for them to be able to do this.

And there is no way to give Hit-and-Run army wide, its just with the unit the Kahn is with.

Beerfart wrote:Im not whining, I actually PLAY marines. Have played them since the late 80's.

The codex is over the top. It's a candy store of powerful things that noone can do UNLESS they play marines.

disagreement is simple denial.

The units ARE overpowered....

Marines still suck though....

At least now they have a chance in competetive gaming.

Red_Lives wrote:I agree Stern guard are savage but vanguard are overpriced, and a disappointment, you need to pay extra for packs and you can't fleet or run with them if you try and assault. You basically need a perfect scatter roll for them to be able to do this.

Unless you have drop pods with locator beacons all over the place along with teleport homers here and there. It really isnt that hard to orchestrate an "on target" drop.

And there is no way to give Hit-and-Run army wide, its just with the unit the Kahn is with.

What do you call Combat tactics? Looks a lot like Hit-and-run to me. Maybe a poor man's H&R but effectively the same.

Beerfart wrote:Im not whining, I actually PLAY marines. Have played them since the late 80's.

The codex is over the top. It's a candy store of powerful things that noone can do UNLESS they play marines.

disagreement is simple denial.

Wasn't saying that you were whining. It was more a general statement.

theyre still marines. its not like its too difficult to kill them

Chaos Lesser Demons assault the turn the Deepstrike. Orks have that Stormboy guy who's unit gets to assault after the Deepstrike as well.

combat tactics is so much better than fearless, it's rediculous. particularly when virtually every squad has the Ld9 sarge. assuming marines lost the fight, they need to fail a leadership test, THEN fail the initiative dice-off, and then it's the same as fearless, but with 3+ saves virtually every other outcome is better.

going off topic for a second, regarding No Retreat! saves. As an example, deathwing termies (fearless) with lightning claws vs. a dreadnought. Why is it the wounds inflicted are S10 power weapon attacks, but when the no retreat saves roll around, suddenly their 2+ save comes back into play? Seems like a weird concept to me.

ok, back to spaz marines.

Librarians: I don't play SM, but frankly thank god, because I got tired of seeing 4 psykers on the table, ever: lash prince, lash sorcerer, farseer, and Uldrad :S
Though frankly, Null Zone feels like another "in case we face daemons" addition to 40k, I don't mind. Helps me focus my firepower

Sternguard: good, but for their price, it's alot of points to sink into 10 4T 1W 3+ models. Catch them out of cover once and they'll wither and die, particularly in the "torrent of fire" style of lists that're cropping up.

Stormshields: Frankly, this 2+/3++ stuff is slowed. esp. 6 of them in a land raider. but whatever, not insurmountable.

I don't see any overall backward steps for the Space Marines, and the new characters take a dangerous step towards the days of herohammer, but we'll see how it goes. I'm cautiously optimistic, but rather unimpressed by the power creep.

I will go on and on and on complaining about the new marine codex, and I've played with it to make some SICK army lists.

But I actually don't think it's overpowered. Nothing it has is unkillable, just really good. And it can be tailored to have tons of options.

As far as the lack of traits, all I don't see that you used to be able to take is veteran skills on certain units [tank hunting devastators] and true grit or 2 assault weapons per squad - which they wanted to avoid because chaos does that.

What I complain about is just how MANY options there are and how GOOD almost ALL of them are. One could say chaos has options - after all, they have 6 different troops selections, and chosen can have all kinds of weapons! But not all of those are viable or even decent, and thus chaos gets steamrollered into the one and only competitive build.

I vote no, but it has a lot of options. And they're ALL good. And that's fine, but where was that for Eldar, or Chaos? Orks and marines now both have the ability to take a certain type of HQ and thus alter the organization of their army lists. They also have non-HQ characters to add to units, and I must ask where were these ideas for chaos and eldar? After the nerf bat chaos got, this almost makes me choose A just because of the "take it as an insult" line.

The Defenestrator wrote:
I don't see any overall backward steps for the Space Marines, and the new characters take a dangerous step towards the days of herohammer, but we'll see how it goes.

Not really. Except for Calgar, none of the characters are really all that amazing themselves. Pedro has a powerfist and a 4-shot stormbolter. Calgar's got AP2 stormbolter that rerolls wounds, and powerfists, 3++, re-roll wounds, blah blah [he's pretty good].

Lysander has the 3+ inv and is S10 in combat - still strikes last.

Khan is S4, just causes instant death [for all the good that is] on a 6

Vulkan is S6 but again only 3 attacks, though the heavy flamer is nice and again there's that 3++.

Without lots of attacks and lots of rerolls, the damage each of them can do by themselves is very limited. It's what they do to the armies that I find sick, and I figure if you're going to buff the army, don't be an uber bad*ss in combat. If you don't do anything for the army at all [chaos lords, princes, greater daemons] then you've got to be better at just bashing heads in [Warboss, though he also affects army comp.] or you're just no help at all.

oh, that's what I meant. Alone, they're mediocre for their points. However what they do to the list is the ludicrous part. It almost feels like they tried to jam the traits system into the characters, which I think is silly. Not to mention the tourneys who play "no special characters" are going to be denying ALOT of space marine armies. Though that may be the best considering Vulkan/Sisters of Battle lists, and Shrike's Assault Marines from hell, etc.

Simply put, no. This codex is not overpowered at all in my opinion. It got rid of all the 6 man las/plas squads, got rid of almost a full turn of denial with the new drop pod assault rule, but also made it a little more dangerous/interesting with half your pods coming in your first turn, they got rid of assault cannon spam.

However, I do not like the removal of traits and the addition of special characters. To me, it feels like I am playing Ultramarines and not my Chapter. If I want to do anything special, I need to take a character. I didn't have to do that to take 6 assault sqauds in the old codex and I didn't have to play Blood Angels. I liked taking two special weapons and infiltrating my squads. Basically what I think they did was take all the crappy units that no one used and made them look shiny so people would buy stuff and use them.

I like Vanilla ice cream, but sometimes I just want to have a bowl of Neopolitan.

Good lord no.

Have you even bothered to play with or against them?

I notice you give no opinion whatsoever, but felt it necessary to start a thread on a largely pointless subject.

Beefart....absolutely adore how you focussed on the more positive changes there. Serious respect for the blinkers there. Sure, Transport Capacity has gone up, but then, to get the most out of your choices, you are generally wanting 10 Man Tactical Squads, this way you get to the Toys. With a 10 man limit on Rhinos and Drop Pods, this means you need to get someone killed before a character can hitch a ride with the unit. That slows the game down. Upping the transport capacity makes a certain amount of sense.

And yes, they do have 9 Special Characters (unless you counted Telion, which would make it 8). Eldar? Well, you have Eldrad, yes? And you have Prince Wotsisface of Iyanden, yes? Then you have the *how many* Phoenix Lords (almost wrote Guard then....wrong game!) One for each of the original Aspects, so thats...Dire Avengers, Fire Dragon, Howling Banshee's, Striking Scorpions, and Dark Reapers...so thats 7 Special Characters. Oh noes! THE BORKEN!


3+ Invulnerable saves given out like Candy. Sorry, nothing like Candy. I get them from my Army List, not harassing my neighbours on Halloween. And indeed, they come with a trade off. I don't get bonus attacks from them, and they are not cheap.Add in that, generally speaking, the troops that can access them aren't particularly cheap either, and I hope you can see my point.

Vanguard and Sternguard. Both very expensive, both competing in different areas for limited slots. Pretty much balances them out nicely.

And why yes, I suppose I *could* take 6 Armour 13 Dreads, if I take the requisite Character first, and am prepared to sacrifice all the other goodies I could have taken in their stead, or have I misread and you in fact get all 6 for free with Master of the Forge as a sort of incentive?

Eldar Psykers looking like Children....poppycock. I'd love Guide and Doom in a Marine Army. That'd be awesome. Instead, I get mainly destructive powers I can replicate elsewhere in my list from things a lot less vulnerable than a single model.

Hit and Run. Nothing of the sort. First of all, you have to beat the Marines in HTH, and I think we can all agree it's a pretty poor general who commits to a fight just so he can deliberately run away, especially when your units cost so much basic.

Vindicators...yes, 10 points mean they can ignore difficult terrain...so what? I still have to pay for something of largely limited use in an army that ought to be quite mobile. And all the times its moving through said terrain, it's limiting it's shooting time. But hey, lets not dwell on that.

Improved stats I'll give you, but then, Dark Angels aren't Space Marines. They are Dark Angels. They need not follow the Space Marine Codex anymore than Chaos Marine should. Would be nice like, but they are seperate forces.

Well storm boys can assault when they deep strike as well. I was going to take the deep striking veterans but its just so expensive. Im still not sure what to do with marines.

Definitely not overpowered. If you look at the units by themselves, it's easy to go 'ZOMGOVERPWR' but anything good (in the marine dex) costs an ass-load of points. The codex has a lot of options, but the prohibitive points cost limit an individual army to only one or two. A Marine is a great base unit, but still suffers in melee. All of their vehicles excepting the Land Raider have relatively light armor with no other defenses, making them very vulnerable to just about any opponent.

Bottom line, no. Any list is going to field approximately 40 guys with a few specialist elements like bikes, dreads, or tanks, which keeps them firmly within the realm of 'small, elite army'. Land Raider spam power builds are even smaller and more elite, and very vulnerable to certain other lists.

I vote for option 7:
Marines are not overpowered. They lost everything that could be molded into a power list and replaced it with overpriced rarely useful trinkets.

Upon closer inspection I have come to the conclusion that its not as bad as I initially thought. The "Bad Ass" thunderfire may not be as awsome as people initially thought. How is it working for people?

I don't usually wiegh in in discussions like this, however all the candy in the new dex is just fine with me(I play almost every armie BUT marines).

I welcome the fact that there will be variety in marine builds and you won't face the same list over and over again. You'll fight one guy that likes to use shirke, then the next guy will liek to burn things with sallies, and the next guy will be drop pod sternguard, and the next guy and the next guy and all them will do it slightly differently than the other guy because they will like one flavor of candy over the other.

My only beef with the dex is 3+ invul saves. 3+ invul should only be given out to individuals, not squads. The mask is fine with a 3+ invul. Hell even the 2+ invul is ok on the dark eldar drachon. But letting it affect shooting AND HTH and buyable for a whole squad is nutso. It's not that the squads will be unkillable, but I do think it puts them on par with NOB Bikers and how un-fun it is to face the kind of squad that your whole army might not be able to kill in a turn even if it is sitting right in front of your whole army. And like NOB Bikers the squad can be devestating when armed with T-hammers and can kill almost anything with ease (except other squads of terms with thunder shields). Hell, at least with NOB bikers you can get in there with things that ignore FNP and do ok.

IMO units like this cause a huge amount of unnecessary friction. I know not everyone will spam them, so I am not too worried, but I do think it it would have been better to be left at 4+.

Meph

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Good lord no.

Have you even bothered to play with or against them?

I notice you give no opinion whatsoever, but felt it necessary to start a thread on a largely pointless subject.

You are wrong. I voted on the poll. I think the codex is fine. Space Marines should be powerful. I just got the codex recently though and have not had a chance to play the new codex.

To sum it up I don't think the topic is pointless. A lot of people will have opinions.

Red_Lives wrote:I agree Stern guard are savage but vanguard are overpriced, and a disappointment, you need to pay extra for packs and you can't fleet or run with them if you try and assault. You basically need a perfect scatter roll for them to be able to do this.

And there is no way to give Hit-and-Run army wide, its just with the unit the Kahn is with.

I thought Shrike gave the army hit-and-run....

EDIT - nvm - it was fleet - continue

Yes the codex is over powered, but not necesarilly where some folks are suggesting.

The codex is overpowered because it breaks the core mission equation with things no other dex can do.

Im talking about troop choices splitting into 2 squads and about non scoring units becoming scoring. With the missions about KP 1/3rd of the time and OBJs 2/3rds of the time creating an army that can dynamically morph its KP and potentially double its scoring unit count is unfair. No one else can do that, and suposedly the new missions were for balance of army (emphasis on troops) but the new marine dex has already broken the equation.

This is to compensate for the relatively low model count of a Marine army. A basic marine sucks, at just about everything (meaning he is barely good in any role). In your "standard" army, you're only going to be able to dedicate 400 points to tactical squads and field an effective list. That gives you 2 squads. If Marines didn't have the option of breaking their guys up, they could hardly ever win a take-objective style mission. Note that there is a nasty side effect of each squad being worth 1 KP. This works against them in 1/3 of all missions played.

The only unscoring squad that becomes scoring, to my knowledge, is the Sternguard in a Crimson Fists army featuring Pedro Kantor.

These guys are a gakload of points. Kantor +3 bare bones 10 man Sternguard squads is 925 points. 31 dudes for 925 points. If you're throwing that down, you need all the help the rules can give you.

A basic marine sucks? Are you kidding me.

I don't think you get it.

Maybe it isn't overpowered. Maybe every other codex in UNDERPOWERED!

asugradinwa wrote:Maybe it isn't overpowered. Maybe every other codex in UNDERPOWERED!

I think that's the ticket. Don't think it's so for Eldar and Orks but the other dex could use a boost.