Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@Moopy: I'd rather field Tacs & AS as Troops than Scouts, along with VAS over Scouts & HG as Elites. Basically, GW doesn't want SM to field Scouts - they want SM to field Marines. So that's fine.

As a 2-shot weapon, a Plasma Pistol killing a couple 15+ pt Marines isn't unfairly priced, although I would prefer if they were only +10 pts each.

To calculate DC, I count them at 30 pts, as GW used in the DC entry for additional models. In that respect, the other stuff seems priced very fairly.

Overall, I really like the current BA Codex, much more than the SM one.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

I don't see how anyone can knock someone for fielding Corbs in a landraider. It extends the FC bubble and is very reliable to say the least.

G

Because that's the only effective way of delivering him; it's not because you can do, but because you must do it. Everything else I stated was either very fragile or unreliable (relying on a dice roll). His power is great, but his movement cripples it. If taking a LR is the ONLY way of effectively using him, then there's a problem there, especially since BA are supposed to move so quickly; might as well make his points 350, give him a land raider, and be done with it. The only reason why he doesn't have a JP is that he isn't currently modeled with one.

@JHDD I look at the chance of getting the lost due to casualty removal, and the opportunity to kill my own models (a 37 pt loss) as overriding the possibility of killing 1-2 enemies that will hopefully be worth the same as my forces.

DC can be calculated differently, depending on the unit. Very true, you could buy them at 30pts outright, but you get one free if you take a terminator squad (the only reason to take them now), 15-25pts if you take a VAS or about 30-40pts if you take a Tactical Squad (Depending on how you calculate the the vet sgt in all cases).

Corbs doesn't have to mounted in a landraider but is the safest place to put him. I run him in an LRC along with two Baals and they work great together with all the mobile shooting they can deliver. It's insane. Toss in a unit of VAS or assault terminators and you have a very effective delivery system. BTW seeing that the LRC has drag launchers makes the assault terminators even more viable. Others have put Corbs in a pod or rhino and it works well too. A pod wall cuts off LOS allows jump infantry to come in behind it then the next turn they jump over within range of Corbs for the FC bonus. If you are running a mechanized army then the rhino can work well too with OCE, cover saves and the smoke launchers. Don't forget that Corbs comes with an exsanguinator too which is very helpllful keeping those expensive BA Marines alive. You just have shield Corbs' rhino with other tanks.

A lot of BT players are using Crusaders to deliver their terminators into assault. Is that a problem. Really I think not. What's good for the goose is good for the gander so they say.

G

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Moopy: I'd rather field Tacs & AS as Troops than Scouts, along with VAS over Scouts & HG as Elites. Basically, GW doesn't want SM to field Scouts - they want SM to field Marines. So that's fine.

As a 2-shot weapon, a Plasma Pistol killing a couple 15+ pt Marines isn't unfairly priced, although I would prefer if they were only +10 pts each.

To calculate DC, I count them at 30 pts, as GW used in the DC entry for additional models. In that respect, the other stuff seems priced very fairly.

Overall, I really like the current BA Codex, much more than the SM one.

Not really meaning to derail this thread (OK, not too much)...

What don't you really like about the new SM Codex?

Because that's the only effective way of delivering him; it's not because you can do, but because you must do it. Everything else I stated was either very fragile or unreliable (relying on a dice roll). His power is great, but his movement cripples it. If taking a LR is the ONLY way of effectively using him, then there's a problem there, especially since BA are supposed to move so quickly; might as well make his points 350, give him a land raider, and be done with it. The only reason why he doesn't have a JP is that he isn't currently modeled with one.

You argument makes no sence. Land Raider may be the best way, but not the only way. You could have him ride in any transport with the proper squad to run with him (like VAS, Honor Guard, Death Company, etc.). Wow, you have to take units in conjunction with others as part of an overall strategy? Crazy!


In fact, I would hate if he got a Jump Pack. He isn't an assault monster, he is a support unit. He is best to be able to get close to the lines, but not directly into them. Best way to get any character like that in a position where he is needed is in a transport.

DC can be calculated differently, depending on the unit. Very true, you could buy them at 30pts outright, but you get one free if you take a terminator squad (the only reason to take them now), 15-25pts if you take a VAS or about 30-40pts if you take a Tactical Squad (Depending on how you calculate the the vet sgt in all cases).

Getting a Free DC with our Terminators makes our Terminators, technically, the cheapest loyalist terminators available.

Mahu wrote:

I forgot to mention both the BA rhinos and Baal predator both have over charged engines.

Which makes our Rhinos better.

While I'm not one who's crying for a new BA Codex, I'd like to ask anyone who thinks the current one doesn't have some serious problems how many Access Points and Fire Points a Blood Angels Rhino (or for that matter, Land Raider) has...

Vale,

JohnS

if you want to play that way then my BA can stay in their pods after they arrive.

G

Mahu wrote:
You argument makes no sence. Land Raider may be the best way, but not the only way. You could have him ride in any transport with the proper squad to run with him (like VAS, Honor Guard, Death Company, etc.). Wow, you have to take units in conjunction with others as part of an overall strategy? Crazy!

In fact, I would hate if he got a Jump Pack. He isn't an assault monster, he is a support unit. He is best to be able to get close to the lines, but not directly into them. Best way to get any character like that in a position where he is needed is in a transport.

Getting a Free DC with our Terminators makes our Terminators, technically, the cheapest loyalist terminators available.

I get that you have to use units together. DUH. The strongest armies are the ones that have units that support each other. You are missing the point. All other transport choices are either fragile (AR11), or unreliable (you HOPE your DP will show up, but you can't rely on a random dice roll for sound strategy). The forces inside the rhino or DP is understrengthed due to the oh-so-wonderful combat squad garbage. Under sized units do not do well as support. Then again I've already stated this in a previous post. I've never stated he's a hand-to-hand moster, and we both view his support roll the same way, it's just too hard to use him without the biggest vehicle around. You could always detach him from the unit before they assault and that would settle your issues with him in combat.

Even with a bonus, it's the 5 man squad that cripples terminators effectiveness.

Alpharius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Overall, I really like the current BA Codex, much more than the SM one.

What don't you really like about the new SM Codex?

I dislike that the SM Codex only really gives options to field units of Bolter Marines and Artillery, and only really has 1 Troops choice (10-man Tac squad with Transport). Bolter Marines are kind of boring. I have plenty of Guard, so I don't need SM to field Artillery. Meanwhile, the other options seem awfully pricey and ineffective. So the SM book just isn't that interesting to me. It's feels much too vanilla to be my primary army.

That said, I'll probably configure my SM to be 1500 pts, featuring C: SM-specific stuff like MotF, Sternguard, Scouts as Troops, and so on.

BA, OTOH, are far more interesting to me. I like infantry-based SM, Jump Pack Troops, things like DC. So it's a better match for what I like to field.

Mahu wrote:Getting a Free DC with our Terminators makes our Terminators, technically, the cheapest loyalist terminators available.

Yup. If we didn't get raped on the plastic models, I might field BA Termies.

who says everyone who plays BA is going to split their units into combat squads? I always run full 10 man squads.

The rhino is viable as a transport for Corbs if you run a mechanized list. I have already pointed out why.

G

I get that you have to use units together. DUH. The strongest armies are the ones that have units that support each other. You are missing the point. All other transport choices are either fragile (AR11), or unreliable (you HOPE your DP will show up, but you can't rely on a random dice roll for sound strategy).

When was the last time you actually used Rhinos, especially in multiples? My experiences have been a reliable two turns out of the tank. With overcharged engines, they get where they need to be much faster then the standard ones. Two turns is all I need to get where I need to be. If you can't use multiple tanks in conjunction with each other to set up a turn two or three charge, there is something wrong with your strategy.

Even if the Rhino is destroyed, they still have to stop the squad. Very few, if any, armies have the fire power to pop a Rhino then destroy all the passengers in a shooting phase.

The forces inside the rhino or DP is understrengthed due to the oh-so-wonderful combat squad garbage. Under sized units do not do well as support. Then again I've already stated this in a previous post.

Did you not look at the units I mentioned that can ride with him? VAS and Death Company are variable squad sizes, I can take a unit of nine of them with Corbulo in a Rhino and that would be effective enough. Combat Squads are a great rule and is only really restrictive to the Tactical Squad, which shouldn't be a front line unit anyways. Tactical Squads are best if held back and move in to capture objectives around turn 4. You don't really need characters to ride with them. Like GBF says, its best to keep them 10-men anyways.

I've never stated he's a hand-to-hand moster, and we both view his support roll the same way, it's just too hard to use him without the biggest vehicle around. You could always detach him from the unit before they assault and that would settle your issues with him in combat.

I have never had a problem with him getting into CC if the unit he has enough teeth. Like I said I prefer Death Company and a Chaplian to ride with him, very few units can survive a charge from that (especially a FC Chaplain).

Even with a bonus, it's the 5 man squad that cripples terminators effectiveness.

5 man isn't too bad. But we can still take a Drop Pod, which C:SM Terminators can't. Even though our Drop Pods are overpriced, in the hands of a Terminator unit, minus the DC cost, it's still pretty cost effective.

My ultimate point is to say this. Is the Blood Angels list perfect? No, but it is still pretty effective, has plenty of flavor, and is unique to the tens of thousands of oter Marine players you may face. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other Red Codex Marine Chapters you can play.

I am with Mahu. And red is such a lovely colour too.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:who says everyone who plays BA is going to split their units into combat squads? I always run full 10 man squads.

The rhino is viable as a transport for Corbs if you run a mechanized list. I have already pointed out why.

G

10 man squad + Corbulo = 11. Can't do that with a rhino/DP w/o splitting the squad.

Mahu wrote:
When was the last time you actually used Rhinos, especially in multiples?

Every game I play. 2-3 at least. They make excellent moving walls to keep the JP troops safe from ground fire. However every time there's a leader of any sort in them, that vehicle ends up on fire or worse.

And please, don't do the "don't like it, leave" part. Your post had some nice points up till that. Yes, the BA have some great fluff units, yes the background is good (it's what drew me to them in the first place) and YES, some of it can be standardized with weapon options/unit organization in the new SM codex.

Moopy wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:who says everyone who plays BA is going to split their units into combat squads? I always run full 10 man squads.

The rhino is viable as a transport for Corbs if you run a mechanized list. I have already pointed out why.

G

10 man squad + Corbulo = 11. Can't do that with a rhino/DP w/o splitting the squad.

DC, VAS anyone? Maybe when the codex is released Corbs will have straps so jump infantry can carry him around.

G

I find it a bit sad that BA is the only chapter (not counting BT) that can´t give their Librarian a JP.
A major miss if you ask me.

Perhaps the straps GBF was talking about will work


//Edge

Librarian can use Psyker power to count as Jump Infantry.

Honestly, I've been rebuilding my BA in the last month from their former mish-mashed 3rd BA/4thSM codex mess to a new polished force under the PDF rules and really don't have any problem with it... and I don't plan on having to change to a new 'Dex any time soon.

I wasn't saying there was a problem with one...I was just surprised after learning that the codex came out of a WD. Up through 3rd edition (I skipped 4th) there was also a codex and the BA were a big part of 40k.

But some of the arguments do makes sense. I think the codex is definitely effective, but it is just surprising that there isn't a real codex with fulff and unique lists within the chapter etc.

I am surprised at all the responses though...it is interesting..keep on...lol

Do any BA players have lists they've posted on dakka? If so could you link to them? Thanks

FWIW, my BA list is going to be something like this:

HQ
- Lemartes
- Captain w/ JP & Claws

Elite
- DC
- VAS w/ Claws & Flamers
- VAS w/ Claws & Flamers

Troops
- AS w/ PF & pistols
- AS w/ PF & pistols
- AS w/ PF & pistols
- Tacs w/ Las, Plas in Razor
- Tacs w/ Las, Plas in Razor

Fast
- Landspeeder
- Landspeeder

Heavy
- Devastators w/ PCs
- Devastators w/ MLs
- Devastators w/ HBs

And please, don't do the "don't like it, leave" part. Your post had some nice points up till that. Yes, the BA have some great fluff units, yes the background is good (it's what drew me to them in the first place, and YES, some of it can be standardized with weapon options/unit organization in the new SM codex.

Fair Enough.

This is my current list, I like Mechanized Armies:

-HQ-

Corbulo = 100

Chaplain w/ Meltabombs = 105

-Elites-

8 Death Company (3 Free) = 150

Terminator Squad w/ Heavy Flamer, Chainfist
in Drop Pod = 260

Dreadnought w/ Multimelta, Heavy Flamer = 130

-Troops-

10-man Tactical Squad w/ Flamer, Sergent w/ Powerfist, Meltabombs
in Rhino = 265

10-man Tactical Squad w/ Meltagun, Sergent w/ Power Weapon, Meltabombs
in Rhino = 260

-Fast Attack-

Attack Bike w/ Multimelta = 50

Attack Bike w/ Multimelta = 50

-Heavy-

Vindicator w/ Storm Bolter = 130

Land Raider Crusader w/ Storm Bolter = 255

Total = 1750

Mahu, your list seems like it's full of strong units which I like, but do you ever have problems only having two troops? Does putting the terminators in the drop pod work well? I get kind of nervous letting infantry stand in front of the enemy to take a round of shooting. Then again, if any unit in 40k could take it, it'd probably be the terminators (second to maybe a wraithlord or HT).

John, I really like your list. I might try and run my baal predator instead of one of the dev squad just to change it up a bit but I like infantry a lot. I like not having to pay anything for the DC except Jump Packs.

This is what I ran for Ard Boyz

Dante
Lemartes

DC w/jump packs
VAS w/Power Fist, meltas

AS w/PF
AS w/PF
AS w/PF
Tac Squad w/PC

Attack Bike w/multimelta
Attack Bike w/multimelta
Attack Bike w/multimelta

Baal Predator w/HB sponsons
Baal Predator w/HB sponsons
Dev Squad w/3 PC

With the metagame at my store I am thinking of changing it up some with Land Raiders but I don't feel like painting any more BA for a while!

JohnDD; Yeah i know, Wings of Sanguinius, but it requires a psychic test, which can be failed, and if he is joined with a squad of AS or VAS he becomes a wildcard
if it´s not sure that he will jump with the rest of them.


//Edge

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Moopy: I'd rather field Tacs & AS as Troops than Scouts, along with VAS over Scouts & HG as Elites. Basically, GW doesn't want SM to field Scouts - they want SM to field Marines. So that's fine.

As a 2-shot weapon, a Plasma Pistol killing a couple 15+ pt Marines isn't unfairly priced, although I would prefer if they were only +10 pts each.

How do you mean, 2-shot weapon? If you mean because you only get to shoot it once or twice in a game, ok. If you mean because you don't move and double-tap it, you can't do that anymore.

Yeah it´s a shame that Plasma Pistols are technically Assault 1 weapons now.
An AS squad with 3 PPs used to be a terrifying sight...


//Edge

Commisar I like your list overall. How does Dante do in 5e? I bet running Lemartes and Dante each with their retinues can bring a hurt to just about any enemy.

Devastators seem to be a pretty common choice. Is this due to the fact that they give a DC? I don't think I own any painted BA with any heavy weapons other than missile launchers that came with the boxes. Maybe this would be a wise investment?

Mahu, your list seems like it's full of strong units which I like, but do you ever have problems only having two troops? Does putting the terminators in the drop pod work well? I get kind of nervous letting infantry stand in front of the enemy to take a round of shooting. Then again, if any unit in 40k could take it, it'd probably be the terminators (second to maybe a wraithlord or HT).

The Tactical Squads are reserve units. Essentially, they take a back seat till they are needed to grab an objective or grab my own.

I haven't had that much experience with the Terminators in a Drop Pod yet. I have been running into to many issues with Deepstrike and the lack of homers in the list lead me down that path.

My list is built on a bunch of good strong units getting into the enemies face, while the troops run around and grab objectives.

There is a strong power list for BA that utilizes Dante and Corbs. I have seen it rip the sh*t out of other top tiered lists such as Lash/Oblit spam and Orkish hordes.

G

OnTheEdge wrote:JohnDD; Yeah i know, Wings of Sanguinius, but it requires a psychic test, which can be failed, and if he is joined with a squad of AS or VAS he becomes a wildcard
if it´s not sure that he will jump with the rest of them.

//Edge

Also, once you use Wings to get him into CC, his force sword is only useful as a power weapon for that turn. I prefer librarians with a JP, so killing the usefulness of the one shot kill for MC's and IC's just to get him across the board pretty much nixed him as an HQ for me now. For an army that can take assault marines as troops, the choice to replace it with WOS as your only option seems like an odd choice. Maybe they all just have bad backs and can't support the extra weight.