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Any Ld9 Librarian is a joke. BA have the best Librarian in the game when it comes to close combat.

G

Drummerboy wrote:John, I really like your list. I might try and run my baal predator instead of one of the dev squad just to change it up a bit but I like infantry a lot. I like not having to pay anything for the DC except Jump Packs.

Cool. I'll have swap-outs, too, but this is my primary list of models. Also, you pay the full 30 pts for each DC model when you buy Termies, VAS, AS, or Tacs.
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OnTheEdge wrote:JohnDD; Yeah i know, Wings of Sanguinius,

Yeah. It's why my Jump BA won't field a Librarian, either. But as I think the "best" force is Captain & Chaplain, and I only have 2 HQ slots, it's no great loss.

The Movement rules simply mean that, if he fails the test, he leaves the unit.
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Lormax wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:As a 2-shot weapon, a Plasma Pistol killing a couple 15+ pt Marines isn't unfairly priced, although I would prefer if they were only +10 pts each.

How do you mean, 2-shot weapon? If you mean because you only get to shoot it once or twice in a game, ok.

Exactly. You shoot it two times (1 shot each) over the course of a game. Each shot generally kills a Marine (or whatever), so it's not horrible at 15 pts - it's points neutral.
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Drummerboy wrote:Devastators seem to be a pretty common choice. Is this due to the fact that they give a DC?

I don't think I own any painted BA with any heavy weapons other than missile launchers that came with the boxes. Maybe this would be a wise investment?

Yes.

Plasma Cannons rock. 'Nuff said!

"Also, you pay the full 30 pts for each DC model when you buy Termies, VAS, AS, or Tacs."

DC are free for termies. This is why termies were so popular for DC when the new rules were first released.

G

Ooof... your lists must be miserable if you're paying for DC twice... the point of DC is that they come as part of the package, and EXTRA DC over the free ones are 30 pts +5 for Jump Packs... you DO have to buy everyone's JPs tho.

Fine fine since all the cool kids are posting their lists.

HQ:
Dante

Elite
6 DC JP

Troops
10 man Tac. Melta, PF Rhino w/EA
10 man Tac. Flamer, PW Rhino w/EA
10 AS PF
5 man Tac Razorback TLLC
5 man Tac Razorback TLLC

Fast
2 Land Speeder w/ASSC

Heavy
Baal HB EA

Took 4th in 1st Hard Boyz round 2007. Had to work this year so I didn't try out at the 2008 : /

The DC have no leaders so they run at the enemy like crazy men. I'm absolutely fine with this DC are the biggest "boogiemen" in the game, and people spend a lot of fire power against them. Too much firepower, and that lets everything else get too close.

I have won three RTTs with my new BA now that 5e is in place. They are a lot stronger now.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:"Also, you pay the full 30 pts for each DC model when you buy Termies, VAS, AS, or Tacs."

DC are free for termies. This is why termies were so popular for DC when the new rules were first released.

The way I see it, DC are 30 pts for Termies, but BA pay a discounted (and fair) 34 pts per Termie because Termies just aren't as awesomely cool as VAS.

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Prometheum5 wrote:Ooof... your lists must be miserable if you're paying for DC twice... the point of DC is that they come as part of the package, and EXTRA DC over the free ones are 30 pts +5 for Jump Packs... you DO have to buy everyone's JPs tho.

You can look at it either way. I choose to look as Termies as 5x 34-pt Termies with a mandatory 30-pt DC model.

Nice CYA there John. Nice.

G

@BGF, do you really think Termies are worth 40+ pts each in 5E?

You can look at it either way. I choose to look as Termies as 5x 34-pt Termies with a mandatory 30-pt DC model.


OK, that I can understand... just making sure you aren't paying 30 points extra for every DC in your list.

okay thanks!

: )

John, how many models are in each of your squads, I didn't run the numbers or anything, but it seems like that would get expensive. Which ones (if any) are maxed out. I'm not wanting to copy your list or anything ( I don't have that many Jump Packs) but I'm just trying to get an idea of how many it takes to get across the field with enough left to do significant amounts of damage.

Thanks

Oh, I'm doing my BA as min-max MSU, so these are largely 5-man squads. *Except* the DC, which I want to be large.

The list I gave is more of a models collection than an actual list per se. That is, I build a particular list out of those models. As this is an assault force, in any given list, I typically have the bulk of the army as Jump Pack / Transport. I don't play them much (lately, I am enjoying playing IG Apocalypse), so this may not be the optimal amount.

Okay I was just making sure I could still use a calculator. Thanks for all the replies...they give some ideas as to how the BA can be used effectively in both tournament and fun games.

Kind of like how my Templars do the same thing!

Green Blow Fly wrote:There is a strong power list for BA that utilizes Dante and Corbs. I have seen it rip the sh*t out of other top tiered lists such as Lash/Oblit spam and Orkish hordes.

G

JohnHwangDD wrote:@BGF, do you really think Termies are worth 40+ pts each in 5E?

Not for BA when there are better choices for elites.

G

Looks like this is a better place to ask these questions. I don't see them specifically answered in the thread so far (that is, the reason why) (Originally posted in List Discussion Sub-forum)
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Hello, do we have any intelligence (aka - rumors) as to if the PDF BA "codex" is all we are going to get for 5th ed. Blood Angels?

Also, I have a few questions (as in, why it was done this way). Take it as whining if you like, it just seems odd to me that this list is setup this way. I know BA are supposed to be Non-Codex and hence "different". But that doesn't explain the reasoning behind these particular decisions. If indeed they were intentional.

Elites BA's seem to be elite "slot starved" vs. CodexM
1. Scouts count as elites (seems strange, scouts are green "in-training" Marines.
2. Terminators are only available in 5 man squads. Codex can have anywhere from 5-10. Seems odd that other chapters can deploy 30 Terminators in a standard force list. BA can only do 15 (let alone if one desires scouts).

Scouts:
2. Why don't BA scouts have the option for camo cloaks or scout bikes?

The reason BA Scouts are Elites is that in their fluff, BA Scouts are nasty and trained extra.

Given that the BA Codex PDF is free, I'm OK with it. If/when GW gets around to cutting a special sprue for BA, BA will then get a proper, printed Codex.

BTW, I suspect SW will get a printed Codex sooner, precisely because SW would have a dedicated, recut bitz sprue.

Getting back, BA are "different", and that's OK. GW never really goes into the rationale, but it's not hard to figure out that BA have Jump Pack assault force as their special schtick.

BA "Scouts" are Elite because they are full-fledged WS4 BS4 Marines in Scout Armour who can Infiltrate and Scout.

BA Termies are 5-man squads because that is the traditional squad size. Obviously, BA Veterans prefer JPs over TDA.

BA Scouts predate camo cloaks.


The main effect of this is to steer BA towards VAS for Elites, which is more thematic.

Who can say that BA terminators should be only able to field five per squad? There is absolutely no fluff to justify this restriction. Ultramarines can take 10 with two heavy weapons. Ultramarines' 1st company was destroyed by a Tyranid invasion on their home world. Nothing of the sort ever happened to the Blood Angels. I agree that VAS are the more fluffy choice but to be honest I rarely use them because you need to be able to field at least three troop choices to be competitive in 5e. People knock our assault squads because they are limited to plasma pistols which cost 15 points apiece... but they are a troop choice and you can trade their jump packs for a rhino which comes with OCE. The plasma pistols are expensive but they give the unit a big edge when they shoot prior to charging against uber cc enemy units.

No one I know takes scouts in their BA lists who play competitively.

G

What does VAS mean?

--Nevermind--

JohnHwangDD wrote:Getting back, BA are "different", and that's OK. GW never really goes into the rationale, but it's not hard to figure out that BA have Jump Pack assault force as their special schtick.

I'm an old Rogue Trader player, recently come back to the game. This is a recent (well, recent to me anyway) change. Of course back then we didn't have such restrictive unit composition restrictions. (And we had to walk up hill both ways and we liked it). I only recently bought any assault troops

BA "Scouts" are Elite because they are full-fledged WS4 BS4 Marines in Scout Armour who can Infiltrate and Scout.

They are still the BA's Brothers in training. Just doesn't seem right that they are classified as "elite" then when they are promoted to a line company the become "troops". Of course, I realize that these designations are game constructs. But it does break ranks with all the other codexes I recall (in which elite means... elite)

BA Termies are 5-man squads because that is the traditional squad size. Obviously, BA Veterans prefer JPs over TDA.

But not for the "traditional" Ultramarines?

BA Scouts predate camo cloaks.

One would think they'd update the PDF to add things like this option then.
But, at least from a House Rules perspective it shouldn't unbalance the game by letting BA Scouts buy them for 3pts/ea. just like the other Marines, no?

The main effect of this is to steer BA towards VAS for Elites, which is more thematic.

But there is no reason to do this. Why limit flexibility so? Plus in the background, Even in the BA 1st company consists of 10 squds of 10 Marines. Not being able to field them as such seems silly to me.

At any rate, these are suppositions we are making. I was really interested in discovering if there was a deliberate careful plan behind this list as written, or if these were just tossed together and/or not evolved to keep pace with the changing life and times of the Codex:SM

Green Blow Fly wrote:I agree that VAS are the more fluffy choice but to be honest I rarely use them because you need to be able to field at least three troop choices to be competitive in 5e....

...No one I know takes scouts in their BA lists who play competitively.

I can see why people would not take scouts. With only 3 elite slots, and the fact that I have several Dreadnaughts and Terminator squads painted... I won't. (Especially without Homing beacons... which would dovetail nicely with the fore mentioned Terminators, which of course I can't get enough of on the board...) I was having some troubles getting enough "troop" units into the field, when my Ork opponent pointed out (while browsing my new SM Codex, which I had largely ignored due to there being no BA list in it) that scouts are now troops. Hooray I said. I promptly dug into my To Be Done shelf and opened up two boxes of scouts. Only when I was looking at the BA Codex later did I notice that it wasn't so.

I like my Terminators. I don't want to whine, but (I will), why must I choose between scouts and terminators? Further, why must I only be allowed to field half the Terminators (or 1/3rd as many scouts) as other Marine players? Seems... weird. It can't be a game balance issue as BA Terminators are identical to Codex Terminators. (Aside from the extra points for the Death Company "missing but bonus man").

As I think about sillyness why in the world a Terminator (or BA Scout for that matter) can't capture and hold objectives, makes um... little sense. This of course transcends this discussion, and is a "problem" with the game in general. But, I digress...

Mettius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Getting back, BA are "different", and that's OK. GW never really goes into the rationale, but it's not hard to figure out that BA have Jump Pack assault force as their special schtick.

I'm an old Rogue Trader player, recently come back to the game. This is a recent (well, recent to me anyway) change. Of course back then we didn't have such restrictive unit composition restrictions.

True. BA were basically Codex in 2E, and didn't start to differ until 3E. In 5E, the full extent of the variance is now clear.

Mettius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:BA "Scouts" are Elite because they are full-fledged WS4 BS4 Marines in Scout Armour who can Infiltrate and Scout.

They are still the BA's Brothers in training.

If they were "in training", they'd be WS3 BS3 like the Ultra's Scouts. I look at these as full-Marines in scout armor, because their stats are full Marine aside from the armor. And they gain a couple USRs on top of that. From a practical standpoint, with their bonus rules, they actually *are* more Elite than Tacticals.

Mettius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:BA Termies are 5-man squads because that is the traditional squad size. Obviously, BA Veterans prefer JPs over TDA.

But not for the "traditional" Ultramarines?

BA Veterans operate as Combat Squads, even in Termie armor. It's also why HG are only 5 men.

Mettius wrote:One would think they'd update the PDF to add things like this option then.
But, at least from a House Rules perspective it shouldn't unbalance the game by letting BA Scouts buy them for 3pts/ea. just like the other Marines, no?

GW seems not to want to revisit Codices, so probably not. Perhaps BA don't use camo from a Doctrinal standpoint, again, artificial distinction to separate BA from SM.

Mettius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The main effect of this is to steer BA towards VAS for Elites, which is more thematic.

But there is no reason to do this. Why limit flexibility so? Plus in the background, Even in the BA 1st company consists of 10 squds of 10 Marines. Not being able to field them as such seems silly to me.

I was really interested in discovering if there was a deliberate careful plan behind this list as written, or if these were just tossed together and/or not evolved to keep place with the changing life and times of the Codex:SM

There probably was, but GW isn't going to spoon feed it out. The only real oddity is that SM can take Bikers as Troops for WS, rather than forcing White Scars to play as Ravenwing. Which is wierd, because Raven Guard play as BA...
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Mettius wrote:I can see why people would not take scouts. With only 3 elite slots, and the fact that I have several Dreadnaughts and Terminator squads painted... I won't.

I like my Terminators. I don't want to whine, but (I will), why must I choose between scouts and terminators? Further, why must I only be allowed to field half the Terminators (or 1/3rd as many scouts) as other Marine players?

And that is why BA aren't the same as DA or Ultras. BA can field lots of Assault, but fewer Termies than DA or Scouts from Ultras. It's an artificial distinction so that non-Codex Marines really are different from Codex: Space Marines.

it's getting deep in here.

G

I don't buy that BA scouts are full fledged Marines in lighter armor. Where does it state that in the fluff? Basically it was a bad decision by JJ. Ultramarine scouts also have special rules and access to better weapons plus a legendary squad leader. Look at Blood Claws... BS3/WS3... they are also a troop choice. Only wolf scouts rank the true status of elite.

G

No, they're not really "elite" in the literal sense of the word. The designers just put them in that slot so that, instead of being able to play a 10th Company army, you can play an 8th Company army. It's just something to make the different SM armies distinct, so that Blood Angels aren't just "Red Marines." As far as points values (and, in the case of scouts, statlines) being different between the two codices, here's my take: the game is constantly evolving. The design team learned a lot from the DA and BA codices, and incorporated those lessons into the new SM Codex. Does that mean that the SM Codex is better? Of course it does. Does that make the overall game better? Of course.

Pariah Press wrote:It's just something to make the different SM armies distinct, so that Blood Angels aren't just "Red Marines."

The setting (background) ensures this for me. But Black Rage/Red Thirst, and Death Company assures this. There is no need to go mucking about with the rest of the list (in my humble opinion). I would be happier if this list referenced the SM Codex (like it did in the old printed BA codex) so that when the main codex was updated it would be by default.

Pariah Press wrote:As far as points values (and, in the case of scouts, statlines) being different between the two codices, here's my take: the game is constantly evolving. The design team learned a lot from the DA and BA codices, and incorporated those lessons into the new SM Codex. Does that mean that the SM Codex is better? Of course it does. Does that make the overall game better? Of course.

Better or worse isn't really my issue. It is the inconsistencies (BA Squads are cookie cutter 5 or 5/10 man squads. I like the flexibility of 5-10, it makes point balancing easier, and better reflects the game background (Squads are 10 men at full strength).
I understand a desire to make BA different from Codex Marines. I don't mind flavor. I just don't like being shoehorned. When they introduced the Death Company, I was fine with that. That was flavor. It stripped men out of your regular squads, but this actually "felt right". As in it fit the background. Men on the eve of battle lost it and had to be cordened off in the Death Company. Now they are just extra troops.

I suppose I shouldn't complain to much, I don't play tournaments (I don't like what that seems to bring out in most people), all I have to do is convince my friends and I can have the BA list as I think it should be. OTOH, if I just play under Apocalypse rules, all of my issues with force organization are moot.

Mettius wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:It's just something to make the different SM armies distinct, so that Blood Angels aren't just "Red Marines."

The setting (background) ensures this for me. But Black Rage/Red Thirst, and Death Company assures this. There is no need to go mucking about with the rest of the list (in my humble opinion). I would be happier if this list referenced the SM Codex (like it did in the old printed BA codex) so that when the main codex was updated it would be by default.

Well, that's perfectly understandable. The point of making the BA Codex so different is, IMO, because of the sheer prevalence of Space Marine armies. GW wants to introduce a variety of play styles so that there is some variety in these Marine armies.

As far as 5,10 vs. 5-10 goes, I'm sure that the next edition of the BA Codex will fix this. Things are always evolving.

I'd *much* rather have 5 or 10 (with more options at the 5-man level ) in lieu of "must have 10 to take any Heavy or Special weapons".

I think that the 5-man AS building block makes BA much stronger than the 10-man Tactical building block in SM, and would prefer not to see any change here.