Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Moz wrote:Flamers that ignore armor (the ones he listed, wind of chaos - doom siren - and SoBs with Divine guidance) do not give a feel no pain roll.

<edited>

Partially wrong. Winds of Chaos/Breath of Chaos, and SOB's with Divine Guidance who roll 6's ignore feel no pain. Doom siren is AP3, and so it does not.

Exorcists or vindicators/demolishers maybe... it is definitely a tough nut to crack, as there is not a lot of Str8+ AP2- stuff out there that hits more than one model. Maybe a Chapter Master's orbital bombardment? Thunderhammer termies seem the best bet for Marines in melee, unless you are going dreadspam. Conversion beamers maybe...

I don't know really. Nob bikers are just 700+ points of "hurts so good."

Moz wrote:Flamers that ignore armor (the ones he listed, wind of chaos - doom siren - and SoBs with Divine guidance) do not give a feel no pain roll.

I give it a meh though, wounding the nobs doesn't help anything - it just means you win by less when you are punking them out with STR8 in assault because he'll pull the wounded guys.

Use the lash to put the powerklaws out of consolidate range and then charge in with princes, defiler, oblit instead - win combat by 4 or 5 wounds and watch them run off the table.
SoBs gotta shoot though, it's about all they can do. Shoot them down to 9 models and pray to the emperor for some lucky tankshock action.

Well, another way to think about it is to put alot of low AP shots period on the nobs, then charge in with something that dishes out alot of power weapon wounds. If you can spread out enough wounds to shooting, and then charge in with higher than 3 init with multiple power weapons, you could then be taking out a model per wound. There are very few ways to do this reliably though. Demons may be able to do it with Flamers using Wind, and then have a charge from Bloodletters or Crushers. The demons lack anything to Tank Shock with though to bunch the bikers up.

Doom siren is only Ap3? Lame...

whitedragon wrote:
Well, another way to think about it is to put alot of low AP shots period on the nobs, then charge in with something that dishes out alot of power weapon wounds. If you can spread out enough wounds to shooting, and then charge in with higher than 3 init with multiple power weapons, you could then be taking out a model per wound. There are very few ways to do this reliably though. Demons may be able to do it with Flamers using Wind, and then have a charge from Bloodletters or Crushers. The demons lack anything to Tank Shock with though to bunch the bikers up.

If it's all you've got to sprinkle wounds on the unit then yeah, but it's really not ideal. Certainly do the instant death wounds FIRST! If you have a mixed army, it may behoove you to decide to sprinkle wounds onto one unit, and save the S8's for the other. This way all of your guns can still operate, while not reducing each other's effectiveness. I've yet to encounter an army that even poses a threat to the bikes in the 1-3 shooting phases you might allow in a normal game though.

DarthDiggler wrote:6 Ironclads seem to be the best possible option for killing the Nob Biker list dead. It also has the added advantages of being able to do well against Ork Horde lists and not being to many points that you couldn't take enough troops and/or other units to make the army more usable against other lists in your area.

This is why I really like the Ironclad approach, but I think the Assault Terms are still going to be more effective overall versus this specific setup.

Yup. That's all I'm saying is that low ap flamers ignore the 4+ cover save and the feel no pain.

Sure they can still spread out the wounds and such but a SOB dominion squad with 4 flamers and a brazier is going to cause a crap ton of wounds, a lot of them being AP1.

You are talking 15 regular wounds and 5 AP 1 wounds from flamers and another 2 bolter wounds and 1 AP1 out of a 175 point ish unit.

That really good output against a nob squad. If the nobs then charge you, the book of ST Lucius should let you stick around for a bit, and if you have an evicerator you can bump it up to S8 and oblit some orks in the hth phase.

I've had a lot of luck with them against nob bikers.

Pete

Pdeflorio wrote:Yup. That's all I'm saying is that low ap flamers ignore the 4+ cover save and the feel no pain.

Sure they can still spread out the wounds and such but a SOB dominion squad with 4 flamers and a brazier is going to cause a crap ton of wounds, a lot of them being AP1.

You are talking 15 regular wounds and 5 AP 1 wounds from flamers and another 2 bolter wounds and 1 AP1 out of a 175 point ish unit.

That really good output against a nob squad. If the nobs then charge you, the book of ST Lucius should let you stick around for a bit, and if you have an evicerator you can bump it up to S8 and oblit some orks in the hth phase.

I've had a lot of luck with them against nob bikers.

Pete

Running the numbers you're offering...

5 AP1 wounds, means 3.66 wounds past the invulnerable save. 15 regular wounds means 3.25 regular wounds past the invul. 2 regular bolt wounds means .5 wounds, and 1 AP1 means .66 wounds. So in total, your shooting inflicts 8.25 wounds. Congratulations...you've not killed a single model.

Assuming that the nob bikers only assault that one squad, and that the nobs have 4 power klaws plus the warboss's power klaw, they charge with 26 attacks, from the klaws alone. They hit with 2/3 of them, so you're looking at 17-some hits. Wounding on 2+'s means that you've got 14-some wounds. All of which ignore the armor, so the squad is wiped. And the nobs haven't lost a single model.

Now consider that you've got two of those squads running around.

Sisters, are in general, screwed. It's going to take massed meltagun/exorcist fire to take them down. Maybe. Didn't work to well for Scott Simpson at Baltimore, although Parker did make a silly number of cover saves.

Wait. What invulnerable save??? Don;t ork bikes get a 4+ cover save, which is ignored by the fact that it's a flamer?

Pete

If built right, the biker squads will have an armor save, a cover save, an invulnerable save, and Feel No Pain. All this on 2-wound models that each have different equipment so wounds can be spread over the entire squad.

From Turbo boosting or something like a orky force field?

Pete

grotblaster wrote:@Deadshane- If your firedragons are dismounting from their waveserpent and shooting into nobs that just turboboosted, you don't know how to play. After the nobs shoot or assault your screening troops, then you pop out and shoot. 10 shots, 6.66 hits, one wound on warboss, ~3 dead nobs. Do this again with another squad, or just start tank shocking until they run.
Firedragons put a hurting on nob bikers. Played that matchup at FLGS and tournaments and firedragons combined with all the other ap1-2 shooting eldar put out will bring down Nob bikers. They can't spend the game turboboosting and be effective.

I guess the Nob biker doesnt have a chance to burn up the screen (not sure what sort of effective "screen" eldar can run with an army containing 30 mounted firedragons and anything else, but ok) that your serpents are well behind with shooting at max range, check. Charge with a single model into screen? A single choppa nob or Uge choppa nob, maybe not causing a unit to break?....kill the screen off on the eldar turn THEN wait for the Firedragons to get out? Maybe if the screen is this close to the serpents both biker units can maneuver to shoot multiple scorchas at the Serpent? To what end you say? Well, the screen is in the way, and dies. (the only troops that can survive something like that in the eldar arsenal are wraithguard, and if you've got 30 firedragons, I really doubt you've got 20 wraithguard as a screen) You then charge the waveserpent disgorging the firedragons hopefully you managed to surround it killing them all. But whatever, there are several ways to fight this, but really....

its academic.

An army with 30 firedragons isnt viable in tournement when theres a good chance that you'll be looking across the board at armies with 180 orks in them. There's a reason that you dont see 30 firedragons in armies nowadays...its a stupid army idea, unless you're playing 40k to beat Bikernob lists and beat bikernob lists only....even then I dont know that its a sure thing. I dont think we've convinced the OP to go out and pick up 5 boxes of firedragons, so we can just forget about that business.

Centurian99 wrote:

Pdeflorio wrote:Yup. That's all I'm saying is that low ap flamers ignore the 4+ cover save and the feel no pain.

Sure they can still spread out the wounds and such but a SOB dominion squad with 4 flamers and a brazier is going to cause a crap ton of wounds, a lot of them being AP1.

You are talking 15 regular wounds and 5 AP 1 wounds from flamers and another 2 bolter wounds and 1 AP1 out of a 175 point ish unit.

That really good output against a nob squad. If the nobs then charge you, the book of ST Lucius should let you stick around for a bit, and if you have an evicerator you can bump it up to S8 and oblit some orks in the hth phase.

I've had a lot of luck with them against nob bikers.

Pete

Running the numbers you're offering...

5 AP1 wounds, means 3.66 wounds past the invulnerable save. 15 regular wounds means 3.25 regular wounds past the invul. 2 regular bolt wounds means .5 wounds, and 1 AP1 means .66 wounds. So in total, your shooting inflicts 8.25 wounds. Congratulations...you've not killed a single model.

Assuming that the nob bikers only assault that one squad, and that the nobs have 4 power klaws plus the warboss's power klaw, they charge with 26 attacks, from the klaws alone. They hit with 2/3 of them, so you're looking at 17-some hits. Wounding on 2+'s means that you've got 14-some wounds. All of which ignore the armor, so the squad is wiped. And the nobs haven't lost a single model.

Now consider that you've got two of those squads running around.

Sisters, are in general, screwed. It's going to take massed meltagun/exorcist fire to take them down. Maybe. Didn't work to well for Scott Simpson at Baltimore, although Parker did make a silly number of cover saves.

Sisters DO have a hth unit that can do a job on the Nob bikers in HtH....but prolly just a single unit. But its hell on wheels in CC.

6+ Celestians, Imagifer, eviscerator on superior, Cannoness with Eviscerator litanies and 2+ save, Preist with Power Armour and Eviscerator. Inquisitor with a relic and whatever else you want to put on him....all mounted in a rhino.

Whenever the rhino is close to the bikers BEFORE it moves...disembark all troops before the tank moves, make sure the inquisitor is closeby somewhere. Inquisitor pops his relic, squad uses litanies for +2 Str (str 8 eviscerators), use faith for invulnerable save on squad, charge bikernobs with 13 str 8 attacks hitting on 4's with RR's to hit. (also 10 str 5 attacks) Hope the weight of attacks doesnt get through your 7 guys that have 6 3++ saves and one that has 2++, weapons and things in the squad will cause several different batches of saves for even more resiliancy.

MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!

Before you start this assault you MUST ask the ork player if he's heard this joke before....

"A preist, a nun, and a rabbi jump out of a bus....AND KICK YOUR A$$!"

Upgrade one nob to a Painboy to get FNP. Then buy them all Cybork bodies, which gives them a 5+ Invul save. And cybork bodies, iirc, are less than the cost of a slugga boy.

As mentioned above, you've got 9 nobz, the warboss, and the painboy (who, iirc, only has 1 wound). They each can have: 4+ armor or 4+ cover or 5+ invul save (depending on attack form) and a 4+ FNP (if it's not AP 1 or 2 or a power weapon). And the nobz can all have different equipment, so wound are allocated individually, which means if you take 8 wounds, each nob takes one and keeps on trucking.

They're like Death Company, only with power klaws.

Sounds like a great attack from the sisters. But an Ork player who would put his bikes within assault range of a rhino containing that unit (without assaulting it himself first) is a rare thing.

Pdeflorio wrote:From Turbo boosting or something like a orky force field?

Pete

Bikes confer a 4+ armor save and a 4+ cover save (can also turboboost). Cybork Body confers a 5+ Invulnerable save. Painboy confers FNP.

Don't have the Ork codex, but this should be close, if not spot on.

Democratus wrote:Sounds like a great attack from the sisters. But an Ork player who would put his bikes within assault range of a rhino containing that unit (without assaulting it himself first) is a rare thing.

Well, they gotta attack somewhere...or keep getting pelted by 3d6 exorcist shots a turn. I would hope that the SISTERS player would keep the rhino safe behind a wall of other armour or troops as well as to keep them safe.

True. But for the above tactic to work, they would have to roll up and stop right next to that Rhino. It's not like they will be tied up in combat for more than a turn.

Democratus wrote:True. But for the above tactic to work, they would have to roll up and stop right next to that Rhino. It's not like they will be tied up in combat for more than a turn.

15" is a pretty big radius.

2" disembark, 6" move, 6" charge, all with a 1" base.

Its not that unweildy. When you include the footprint of the rhino itself, its pretty big.

I like the celestian unit. Bring along an INQ landraider and you've got a pretty decent option there.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Democratus wrote:True. But for the above tactic to work, they would have to roll up and stop right next to that Rhino. It's not like they will be tied up in combat for more than a turn.

15" is a pretty big radius.

2" disembark, 6" move, 6" charge, all with a 1" base.

Its not that unweildy. When you include the footprint of the rhino itself, its pretty big.

Fair enough. If you can put two of those units in the backfield so that they can counter charge any poor unit of sisters which gets mauled then you may be onto something there.

Are there any other units (besides assault termies) that can be effective in the wide-range counter assault role?

Get the unit to 10 models or less and run a Culexus assassin over there, tank shock their weedy LD7 butts off the board.

Have your Inquisitor cast Purgatus onto the Warboss. LD6 warboss! Return to tankshocking.

By screen, I mean any speedbump unit that isn't the firedragons. Could be pathfinders, guardians, jetbikes, whatever. They will die a horrible death, but you aren't turboboosting if you're killing them. Then the firedragons with a 12" move, 2" disembark, 12" range shoot you. I'm not claiming that 30 firedragons is necessarily a great list, but your claim that a squad all with str. 8 ap 1 shots with an effective 26" range won't put a hurting on nob bikers is wrong. Oh, and 30 fire dragons plus waveserpents with cannon/catapult are about the same cost as one of those units with a warboss.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Sisters DO have a hth unit that can do a job on the Nob bikers in HtH....but prolly just a single unit. But its hell on wheels in CC.

6+ Celestians, Imagifer, eviscerator on superior, Cannoness with Eviscerator litanies and 2+ save, Preist with Power Armour and Eviscerator. Inquisitor with a relic and whatever else you want to put on him....all mounted in a rhino.

Whenever the rhino is close to the bikers BEFORE it moves...disembark all troops before the tank moves, make sure the inquisitor is closeby somewhere. Inquisitor pops his relic, squad uses litanies for +2 Str (str 8 eviscerators), use faith for invulnerable save on squad, charge bikernobs with 13 str 8 attacks hitting on 4's with RR's to hit. (also 10 str 5 attacks) Hope the weight of attacks doesnt get through your 7 guys that have 6 3++ saves and one that has 2++, weapons and things in the squad will cause several different batches of saves for even more resiliancy.

MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!

Before you start this assault you MUST ask the ork player if he's heard this joke before....

"A preist, a nun, and a rabbi jump out of a bus....AND KICK YOUR A$$!"

ummm yea just a thought/note on budgeting your faith here and using the inquisitorial mandate.
1) the mandate does not work when you disembark since you count as moving, you wait till the next turns assault phase to use it since you did no move during the move phase here. Its best to not take this.
2)the cannoness+8 celestians would be better joined by a second cannoness. 3 evisorators in the unit, the second cannoness works out to be better and about the same points as the priest. This second cannoness gives you another litanies of faith also.
3) this is over 500pts in a all your eggs in one basket HQ.
4) If you use the unit you described, you should use your litanies for the invul save and the faith roll for the str. its easier to roll under a 10 to get the +2 strength than over for the invul save.

Moz wrote:Get the unit to 10 models or less and run a Culexus assassin over there, tank shock their weedy LD7 butts off the board.

Have your Inquisitor cast Purgatus onto the Warboss. LD6 warboss! Return to tankshocking.

Good option... but the culexus is pricey

frgsinwntr wrote:ummm yea just a thought/note on budgeting your faith here and using the inquisitorial mandate.
1) the mandate does not work when you disembark since you count as moving, you wait till the next turns assault phase to use it since you did no move during the move phase here. Its best to not take this.

Maybe I didnt make it clear but the Inquisitor is totally optional, and is seperate from the squad....he just tags along safely behind the rhino if possible, he isnt really that important to the plan.

frgsinwntr wrote:
2)the cannoness+8 celestians would be better joined by a second cannoness. 3 evisorators in the unit, the second cannoness works out to be better and about the same points as the priest. This second cannoness gives you another litanies of faith also.

another cannoness INSTEAD of the priest? Absolutly incorrect, the preist is a must have in this unit as he allows for all of the Re-rolls to hit. Maybe another cannoness instead of the Inquisitor, I can see that, but you HAVE to have the priest for this unit to be as devestating as possible.

frgsinwntr wrote:
3) this is over 500pts in a all your eggs in one basket HQ.

it is what it is, 9 nob bikers and a warboss isnt cheap either, as a matter of fact, most of the time its more than this unit....and this unit can route it...fairly easily.

frgsinwntr wrote:
4) If you use the unit you described, you should use your litanies for the invul save and the faith roll for the str. its easier to roll under a 10 to get the +2 strength than over for the invul save.

The STR roll is more important to get off, thats why you use litanies for that. If you're hitting with str 6 eviscerators, the nobs wont insta-die. each hit and wound can count as two wounds toward combat res if its unsaved. If you dont get your invulnerable off, you'll likely die, but so what, you just took LOTS of bikers with you.

No, the str is more important to get off and you NEED the litanies to pull IT off, not the invuln.

Democratus wrote:
Are there any other units (besides assault termies) that can be effective in the wide-range counter assault role?

Sure...but they're all extremely specialized. There's two considerations.

#1 - S8 attacks that ignore armor (i.e. or some other way to autokill models to prevent spreading wounds around, and ignoring armor so that they don't get a FNP save)
#2 - Surviving ~20 power klaw attacks.

Assault terminators do it through though massed storm shields and thunder hammers. 3++ save and S8 power attacks will do a number on the nob. Most armies can do something...but for a lot of armies, it takes some silly, silly builds to do so. For example:

Karandas, large squad of warlocks. Fortune the unit, then get the assault. Warlocks soak wounds while Karandas gets 8 S8 attacks on the charge (7 if charged) at WS7. Eldar should win by combat res...eventually.

Abaddon, with a retinue of some sort to soak wounds. 6-10 S8 attacks at I6 will do a number, and help reduce casualties.

Genestealers with implant attack (and feeder tendrils, natch). Full squad of 12 charging is 36 attacks. 32 hits, 5.33 rends, 5.33 normal wounds. After saves, that's 3.5 wounds from the rending, and 1.33 wounds from the non-rending. So about 5 models dead. Assuming that all the remaining attacks are power fists, including the warboss, their counter-attack has a good chance of wiping the squad, but if they don't the genestealers win on combat res (as each wound counts as two), and the nob squad is pretty much crippled. A broodlord/genestealer combo does the trick as well, but costs silly points (broodlord with feeder tendrils, genestealers with acid maw, everything with implant).

Hive Tyrant /w implant, toxic miasma, +1 WS, scytals, 3 guard with implant. Implant attack is actually huge.

Multiple Carnifexes /w crushing claws and tusks.

I am planning to punk them out with two squads of five BA VAS... each squad has 3x power fist and they are led by Dante. The meltas fire for the insta kills prior to the charge then suck up any non power klaw attacks. Six power fists, each with four attacks and rerolls... All nobs will die.

G

FNP doesnt work against double strength weaponry right? For nids all i can say is either the genestealer approach or lots of BS's on elite fexes (combined with VC's on anything else). Of course if they turbo boost on turn 1 shooting becomes a bit of a liability.

With the tyrant and guard also go for lashwhips. Take em down by 1, 2 or even 3 attacks each. Suddenly that bad-ass unit aint so bad-ass!

I have heaRd that nob bikers ride rough shod over lash spam. Speed kills.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I am planning to punk them out with two squads of five BA VAS... each squad has 3x power fist and they are led by Dante. The meltas fire for the insta kills prior to the charge then suck up any non power klaw attacks. Six power fists, each with four attacks and rerolls... All nobs will die.

G

Dante + those two squads - about 700 points. Comparable to one of the nob biker squads. (actually a bit cheaper). If they're shooting and getting the charge, the bikers likely turbo-boosted the turn before, or have just raped the other units in your army. To be f

1 BS5 melta, 4 BS4 meltas. 3.5 hits, 2.91 wounds. Cover saves let 1.45 through. We'll be generous and say 2. Let's say they're all assigned to the regular dudes. 2 bikers killed. Bolt pistols have negligible effects - 6 shots, 4 hits, 1.33 wounds, 33% chance of getting a wound. 8 bikers left, with 4 klaws.

Blood angels charge (one squad). Dante gets 6 attacks, hits with 4, wounds with 2, let's say that the orks fail both saves. 4 assault marines at I5, 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, .75 wounds past the save, so we'll round up to 1.

3 wounds total, 8 bikers left.
At I3, 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds, we'll say one failed save.

4 nobs with power klaws = 12 attacks. 6 hits, 5 wounds.
Warboss with Klaw = 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2.22 wounds. We'll round down. 8 total wounds.

6 power fist VAM = 18 attacks, 9 hits, 7.5 wounds, 2.5 saves, so 5 nobs killed.

Then the other squad charges in and all three squads are dead. Now, if the orks get the charge...all blood angels die.

This assumes a relatively "nice" nob squad with only 4 power klaws. Add in 2 more (which I've seen) or give the orks the charge, and the BA's are wiped.

Deadshane1 wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:ummm yea just a thought/note on budgeting your faith here and using the inquisitorial mandate.
1) the mandate does not work when you disembark since you count as moving, you wait till the next turns assault phase to use it since you did no move during the move phase here. Its best to not take this.

Maybe I didnt make it clear but the Inquisitor is totally optional, and is seperate from the squad....he just tags along safely behind the rhino if possible, he isnt really that important to the plan.

frgsinwntr wrote:
2)the cannoness+8 celestians would be better joined by a second cannoness. 3 evisorators in the unit, the second cannoness works out to be better and about the same points as the priest. This second cannoness gives you another litanies of faith also.

another cannoness INSTEAD of the priest? Absolutly incorrect, the preist is a must have in this unit as he allows for all of the Re-rolls to hit. Maybe another cannoness instead of the Inquisitor, I can see that, but you HAVE to have the priest for this unit to be as devestating as possible.

frgsinwntr wrote:
3) this is over 500pts in a all your eggs in one basket HQ.

it is what it is, 9 nob bikers and a warboss isnt cheap either, as a matter of fact, most of the time its more than this unit....and this unit can route it...fairly easily.

frgsinwntr wrote:
4) If you use the unit you described, you should use your litanies for the invul save and the faith roll for the str. its easier to roll under a 10 to get the +2 strength than over for the invul save.

The STR roll is more important to get off, thats why you use litanies for that. If you're hitting with str 6 eviscerators, the nobs wont insta-die. each hit and wound can count as two wounds toward combat res if its unsaved. If you dont get your invulnerable off, you'll likely die, but so what, you just took LOTS of bikers with you.

No, the str is more important to get off and you NEED the litanies to pull IT off, not the invuln.

I'll concede these points since I am exhuasted and you're right

BUT you don't want a rhino as was mentioned.... you want to be able to assault when you choose... such as possibly a land raider?