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Green Blow Fly wrote:Blood Crushers can beat the snot out of the nob bikers and I have seen it done.

G

Only if they don't have sufficient power klaws.

You know, I kinda ragged on Neil at Baltimore for taking 6 power klaws in his nob bikerz. But running these numbers the past few days, I think I underestimated his theory-hammer-fu.

frgsinwntr wrote:you guys are tossing out units... what we need are tactics.

3 things you can do

1)"Rhino wall" and hope to out shoot them with ranged str 8+ weapons

Actually, if you're planning to use shooting, you need to use massed AP1-2 weaponry or S10 weaponry. Else you're planning on getting through a 3+ cover save from turbo-boosting and a 4+ FNP save. And if you're weapon isn't S10, you're not removing models.

And if you do the rhino wall to block off a corner of the board...you've totally restricted your maneuvering. Congratulations...you've just conceded any objective-based mission. And if its a kill-point mission...heck, the bikers charge all your rhinos at once and probably kill them.

frgsinwntr wrote:
2)out assault the unit

That's what we're working on coming up with...the sad fact is that there are very few "normal" units out there that can hope to do so.

frgsinwntr wrote:
3)attrition.

Sounds good in theory...but there's two major problems with it. First, you've only got so many turns to do so, and you're essentially trading space for time...so you're conceding objective missions. Or you're essentially feeding kill points to the ork player. Either way, its winning tactics, but losing strategy.

Second, what are you doing about the 2nd biker squad that's running around?

Razerous wrote:Fire prisms, two of em. Linkem and nuke a blast's worth.. Nigh on everything gets a cover save anyways in 5th

A biked farseer with mindwar has an effective 30' mindwar range and will nuke the poor painboys mind as it uses the models own LD.

An idea would be to have some terrain between that farseer and the nobz when the powers used to force them to make those dangerous terrain tests.

The above guts a nob biker squad quite well and its fairly verstile (Farseer biker goes with x, two fire prisms = win)

Fire Prisms = Epic Fail. 3+ cover save. Equals 1-2 dead nobz, assuming your opponent isn't a moron and spreads out so you only get 4-5 nobz under the template.

Farseer - seems like a good idea, but the range thing means that the next turn, your farseer probably dies.

Eldar's best counter seems to be in either massed fire dragons (which cripples them against hordes), or a seriously wacked-out combined charge.

The most standard one I can think of is tossing a pair of Wraithlords with wraithswords, plus a large body of something to soak wounds up, into the combat. THe ridiculous one involves Karandas and fortuned warlocks (and actually isn't my idea, but something the Toledo boys came up with).

By the way, the best, most strategery-wise way I've seen nob bikers dealt with, involved what Marc Parker described as "the most skillful use of lash he's ever seen" or something like that. Mike Mutscheller, used his dual lashes to bring a 30-man boyz squad into a nice conga-line formation that just reached where the nob bikerz had turbo-boosted to - and then proceeded to charge EVERYTHING he had into a massive, multi-unit assault. IIRC, he threw a lash prince, a lash sorcerer, 30 CSMs, and 6 obliterators into an assault. He basically sacrificed his basic CSM squads to soak powerklaws, while his oblits auto-killed nobs, and his CSMs with the Icon of Khorne murdered regular boyz.

The wound totals on each side were pretty ridiculous, from what I understand...but even with each regular CSM squad essentially wiped out, the nob bikerz were needing snake eyes not to run from combat.

As an ork player who runs the nob squad of death, i can tell you my biggest bane is carnifexs with barbed stranglers, three of them with TL stranglers are roughly half the cost of the biker nobz, they're a sure bet. The strength 8 means they're gonna instant death me, and with feel no pain negated i'm only a +4 cover save away from losing a 70 pt model.

Daggermaw wrote:As an ork player who runs the nob squad of death, i can tell you my biggest bane is carnifexs with barbed stranglers, three of them with TL stranglers are roughly half the cost of the biker nobz, they're a sure bet. The strength 8 means they're gonna instant death me, and with feel no pain negated i'm only a +4 cover save away from losing a 70 pt model.

Out of curiosity, how are barbed stranglers negating FNP?

Wounds that are double the toughness of the model negate FNP. Base toughness of a Nob is 4. The 5 is through the bike and it doesn't count for FNP and Instakill.

Thus Str 8 attacks take FNP and the 2 wounds out of the equation.

Daggermaw wrote:As an ork player who runs the nob squad of death, i can tell you my biggest bane is carnifexs with barbed stranglers, three of them with TL stranglers are roughly half the cost of the biker nobz, they're a sure bet. The strength 8 means they're gonna instant death me, and with feel no pain negated i'm only a +4 cover save away from losing a 70 pt model.

See Fire Prism quote above. Spread out, turboboost for 3+ cover save, and then combined charge a few carnifexes. Put a barbed strangler wound against the warboss too, because he can use his FNP.

Oh ofcourse.. bikes T dont count. Fire prisms arent epic fail as each ones focoused blast will do its points cost per shot. Thier fast enough to keep away from le-bikes combined with somthing to stand there and get in the way.

That and using a farseer, decently placed, to gut the painboy - which is really a given concidering its terrible LD. It just needs survive.

How about a banshee squad with both powers - that many power attacks, doomed from the good ol farseer (assume its her bodyguard) wounds on a re-roll of 6. . .

5- 6 wounds per 10 harlie squad on a doomed nob bikers. Never mind.

Just to throw this out there...

What about DH incinerators? S5 templates (ignore saves) AP4 (Nob armor goes goodbye) and ignore sinvulnerable saves... Though i don't think FNP is an invulnerable save. So a 4+ save versus all that holy flame goodness. You can get 4 incinerators in a purgation squad and then attach Elite Inquisitors that are naked but for an incinerator for 40 points. The current load out I am looking at is 6 incinerators in a landraider.

ender502

Still get FNP as its not ap1/2 or a weapon that would never allow an armour save.

Razerous wrote:Still get FNP as its not ap1/2 or a weapon that would never allow an armour save.

Certainly better than the multiple saves that other weapons allow....and at a cheaper price and can hit multiple opponents. Most AP1 or 2 weapons allow the cover save...and are rather pricey or just too few.

If price and sanity were no object I could get..... I could get 8 incinerators in a LR for 645 points. But I think 6 oughtta do it.

ender502

Shaggoth wrote:Wounds that are double the toughness of the model negate FNP. Base toughness of a Nob is 4. The 5 is through the bike and it doesn't count for FNP and Instakill.

Thus Str 8 attacks take FNP and the 2 wounds out of the equation.

Thanks. For some reason I read it wrong. (probably because the only stuff I run with FNP are nurgle daemons)

A good player can minimize the number of template weapons that can hit a unit, doubly so on models with cavalry bases or larger and even more than that on models that can move 12-24 a turn.

You are only likely to get maybe 4-5 with each template given optimal placement and the right move distance. Things being sub optimal you would only hit 3ish guys per template (maybe less). Even if the 6 templates get 5 each, you would hit 30 times, wound 15, they would FNP 7.5 and would lose 0-1 actual model.

On a more realistic 18 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 saved.

Certainly better than the multiple saves that other weapons allow...

This is a bit misleading. They only get two saves: 4+ armor or 4+ cover or 3+ turboboost and 4+ FNP

Bypassing the FNP is roughly equivalent to bypassing all of the other 3.

Dark Angels Librarian, you need to roll well but with Hellfire you can get a S8 AP1/2 Template weapon. That will ignore all of the nobs saves and instant-kill them to boot.

Of course you need to roll a 10+ on 2D6 and a 1 or 2 on D6...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

If you were rolling DH/WH you could use a Calidus to pop next to nobs who were grouped tightly (due to just ending combat perhaps) and light them up with the Neural Shredder.
Str8 to insta-kill, AP1 to ignore armor/FNP, template to ignore cover, against a Ld of 7 per model so you wound on 3+.
Then charge in with your C'Tan blade, and really hope you manage to live through the assault phase

Hopefully, if you have some Exorcists to soften them up as well, there are not too many to assault.

Three squads of howling banshees vs a squad of nobz. Thier at risk of getting shot at but putting in a farseer with mindwar (and fortune/doom) to force the bikers to either stay away (out of range of thier dakka and mindwar) or charge.

Granted they will generally get wiped - the counter-assualting rule means thier either assualt/get assualted and do the same amount of damager. Over 2-3 squads, is it enough?

along the DH/WH train of thought, what about two jumping cannonesses with master crafted evicerators, 2+ saves and those cloaks of no instant death. Have them jump in and activate save=invulnerable. Don't have the book with me so I may be way off base.

Ozymandias wrote:Dark Angels Librarian, you need to roll well but with Hellfire you can get a S8 AP1/2 Template weapon. That will ignore all of the nobs saves and instant-kill them to boot.

Of course you need to roll a 10+ on 2D6 and a 1 or 2 on D6...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

DA librarian in terminator armor deep strikes beside nobs, lays down the template and smokes them!



G

Wehrkind wrote:If you were rolling DH/WH you could use a Calidus to pop next to nobs who were grouped tightly (due to just ending combat perhaps) and light them up with the Neural Shredder.
Str8 to insta-kill, AP1 to ignore armor/FNP, template to ignore cover, against a Ld of 7 per model so you wound on 3+.
Then charge in with your C'Tan blade, and really hope you manage to live through the assault phase

Hopefully, if you have some Exorcists to soften them up as well, there are not too many to assault.

Neural Shredder doesn't instakill, because it goes S8 v LD7.

Exorcists do the job nicely, though, if you can get past the cover save. Speedbumps are the order of the day.

Razerous wrote:Three squads of howling banshees vs a squad of nobz. Thier at risk of getting shot at but putting in a farseer with mindwar (and fortune/doom) to force the bikers to either stay away (out of range of thier dakka and mindwar) or charge.

Granted they will generally get wiped - the counter-assualting rule means thier either assualt/get assualted and do the same amount of damager. Over 2-3 squads, is it enough?

3 squads of banshees...not enough, I think. 81 attacks, ~41 hits, ~7 wounds, ~5 failed saves. Exarchs add in another 9 S5 attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds, 1.5 failed save - so ~7 failed saves. No nobs killed.

Nobz strike back and 20 regular attacks and 16 power fist attacks, hitting on 3s. So ~13 regular hits, and ~11 power fist hits. ~8 regular wounds and ~9 power fist wounds. 4 failed saves, and 13 banshees die. Then they're either taking LD tests at a -6, or they're taking 6 more saves. With only 11 banshees left, I think they're toast.

If the nobz are doomed, they take a bit more wounds, but the powerklaws remain viable. Banshees are crippled, but orks probably break and run. Of course, all this assumes that the banshees get the charge. I find that doubtful, unless the Eldar have sacrificed some major units to draw in the nobz.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:along the DH/WH train of thought, what about two jumping cannonesses with master crafted evicerators, 2+ saves and those cloaks of no instant death. Have them jump in and activate save=invulnerable. Don't have the book with me so I may be way off base.

Cannonnessses need to activate +2S, not inv. save. They need the S8 attacks. Didn't Shane write up something about this?

spacemarines:
typhoon speeders: 2x3 maybe with multimeltas will shoot can stay out of bikers reach (48") and do some major damage 2x6 s8 shots each turn one goes to the w.boss but the leftover shots kill 2-3 nobs per turn/per unit. you can whittel them down nicely and block them with rhinos or feed them with wayblocking marines.

another unit is the 440pts double cyclonelauncher termisquad. if the nobs stay away good for the marines and the nobs eat 4 s8 shots each turn. if they charge, they face 18 s8 attacks (maybe someone will do the math...).

thunderfirecannons for "dtt" with 60" range is an option too.

all 3 can handle horde armys aswell and can be combined ^^.

greetings Badger

My main idea with the banshee mob is 2-3 fairly seperate units with either one or two farseers incl. If a squad does charge multiple units then it would get ganked twice as hard as banshees can do that & theres always the chance of them failing the morale save from the war-shout- which would improve things a fair bit.

I do agree the banshees will die. But point for points here.

What underpins all of this is the farseer uses mindwar to pick out first the painboy and then nobs with powerclaws (I assume both have fairly low base stat LD) which would either force the squad to pull back (18' mindwar range/18' dakka bike gun range, right?) or to go in for a shoot/charge. If they stay at range & simple shoot then the H/B should weather it well enough (A few would live..Possible) ready to allow the farseer to mindwar again.

As for a shoot/charge or just a charge then..well, banshees die but inflict a reasonable amount of wounds. Stagger a few units like this (1 farseer bloc per nobz unit) with either a third HB squad or another elite CC unit.. add in the rest of the army for shooty goodness, pathfinders, fire prisms.. I dont think im going crazy over the amount of points each army would have. right? 750-850 for the three hb & two seers.

Gutting the squad of that painboy (aswell as sniping the low willed nobz) in addition to a reasonable choppy & shooty element is key.

Edit: @ Bagder.. good call but with two such fast units, its not unlikely to trap your own fast speeders. Also, the nobz could forget the termies and bury themselves into the rest of your army. Combined, interesting.

I think the landspeeder Typhoon could hurt them. Don't forget its missile launcher has two shots - S8 AP3. Granted you have to get past the cover save and the invulnerable save but each failed wound insta-kills a nob. I would also toss in a multi melta for the third S8 shots shen the nobs decide to close in. You will have to play the range game to keep away from the dakka guns on the bikes but I can see this as a means of whittling down their two units.

G

exorcists don't get enough turns on a pitched battle or DoW mission to shoot at them. Unless you roll 4+ each turn for all of the shots.
,
Math hammer:
3 exorcists assume you get turn 1 AND failed saves are on nobs
turn 1
9 shots, 5 hits, 4 wounds, 2 failed saves, one on boss and one dead nob
turn 2 they turbo boost
9 shots, 5 hits, 4 wounds, 1 failed save, one dead nob
turn 3
they are in your face and its over...

now if you ROLL all 6's for shots... (highly unlikely)
Math hammer:
3 exorcists assume you get turn 1 AND failed saves are on nobs
turn 1
18 shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 5 failed saves, one on boss and four dead dead nob
turn 2 they turbo boost
18 shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 3 failed save, two dead nob one wounded boss.
turn 3
they are in your face and its over... you did some damage to the one squad.... they did more to you.

yea.. I know this exorcist thing well as it is really what I ran into vs Moz at the GT.

I think getting mass Str 8 pie plates could help, but you can't get that in sisters.... I think some sillyness is the fact 9 penitent engines COULD possibly do well vs the nob bikers but just blow so bad it's not funny.

see.. this ork list is mainly gonna be those two squads with how much in point extra?

Speed bumping and/or effective sacrificial CC units (as, for modest points 'it' wont survive) with combined shooty. All this talk of orky A rushing counter B is a bit pointless as there isnt anything that will counter effectively & survive (from whats been suggested)

I do wanna play against these - what does a standard 1500pt setup comprise of?

Razerous wrote:see.. this ork list is mainly gonna be those two squads with how much in point extra?

Speed bumping and/or effective sacrificial CC units (as, for modest points 'it' wont survive) with combined shooty. All this talk of orky A rushing counter B is a bit pointless as there isnt anything that will counter effectively & survive (from whats been suggested)

I do wanna play against these - what does a standard 1500pt setup comprise of?

Razer...it's not going to work as well as 1750, because to field the 10model squad (Warboss, Painboy, 8 nobz) costs 760. Two of those units won't fit in 1500. You have to drop the squad size to 8, probably, at minimum. At that size, a lot more counters become viable.

At 1750, you've got two nob biker squads, and probably 1 squad of boyz. That's it. That's really all you need. The nobs count as troops because you've got 2 warbosses. And there's no next to no target that the nob bikerz can't deal with. Turn 1 the bikerz turbo-boost, the boyz hunker down to hold objectives near the staring line (or move forward in a KP mission), and the nobz kill everything they touch.

The biggest problem with speedbumps is that the bikerz can probably avoid them.

Nob bikerz are like the Godzilla nids of 1500 in 40K 4. They don't seem to do as well at 2500, because opponents can take enough stuff to reliably swamp them. But at 1750, its extremely tough to do.

A mobile assault army is your best bet. Set your objectives deep in your DZ and make the nobs come to you. Eventually they will charge you. Keep your units inside your transport. Let the nobs attack the transports and come out on the other side. Now assault through the wreckage with your big hitters while your scoring units fall back towards your objectives. Setup the initial nob charge is away from the objectives. You have to hit them really hard so you take out at least one nob unit. Now the orks have max two scoring units left. If you time it right the orks will have to decide whether to go for the closest objectives or continue with another assault. If you can catch them out it is quite possible if the game ends on turn five that you are holding more objectives.

G

hmm just thinking... how about in a sisters army you run a Cullexus assasin and then tank shock the bikers? You could put loud hailers on the rhinos to make the nobs LD 6 as long as the assasin is around.

If you decided to use this method of nob control, You can call this Froggyshocking

CRAP! call it mozzyshocking :(

Moz wrote:Get the unit to 10 models or less and run a Culexus assassin over there, tank shock their weedy LD7 butts off the board.

Have your Inquisitor cast Purgatus onto the Warboss. LD6 warboss! Return to tankshocking.

Except that I posted it on page 2! Haha!
Therefore, we will call it Mozzyshocking.