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Centurian remember that Dante confers preferred enemy versus all races...

6x VAS power fist attacks on the charge with reroll equals:

6x4 hits = 24 hits/ 12 hit plus 6 more hits for the reroll -> 18 hits landed equals 15 insta-kill wounds... 2/3 get through the cybork body which is 12 dead. Also remember that Dante also drops the enemy WS by -1 so the nobs are only hitting back on 4+. That pretty much guarantees one dead unit.

The next part of the equation is how to kill the second nob biker squad. I have a theory and will report the results after play testing it this weekend. A big part of it is cat and mouse. I will have to see how it plays out. My friend I am playing is no slouch either.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Centurian remember that Dante confers preferred enemy versus all races...

6x VAS power fist attacks on the charge with reroll equals:

6x4 hits = 24 hits/ 12 hit plus 6 more hits for the reroll -> 18 hits landed equals 15 insta-kill wounds... 2/3 get through the cybork body which is 12 dead. Also remember that Dante also drops the enemy WS by -1 so the nobs are only hitting back on 4+. That pretty much guarantees one dead unit.

The next part of the equation is how to kill the second nob biker squad. I have a theory and will report the results after play testing it this weekend. A big part of it is cat and mouse. I will have to see how it plays out. My friend I am playing is no slouch either.

G

Remembered the -1 WS, but forgot preferred enemy. I think you miscalculated the number of attacks, though. You only get three attacks/model on the charge, so you only get 18 attacks. 2 attacks +1 for charging, right?

Still probably enough to wipe the squad, sans Warboss, though. Base T5 is a PITA. But the squads are still crippled, and if Dante was in base with a klaw, he's likely dead.

I keep forgetting no more+1 attack for power fist.

G

Deadshane1 wrote:@ storm knight...you make me laugh.

I dunno where you've been playing but I play Grey Knights as well and am here to tell you they're screwed against double Nob biker lists.

I dont think I need to further embellish what others have already said, you're already wrong on the incinerator point. Its nowhere NEAR as good as you think and anything else Knights can throw at the bikernobs shooty-wise will be inneffectual due to the multi-layer defenses with multiple wounds per model.

roll it out a couple of times if you dont beleive me.

GM and 6 terminators charging out of a land raider, fine, benefit of the doubt you get to charge.

Charging a warboss with claw on bike, and 9 Nobs on Warbikes 4-5 of which have claws, every single one a seperate batch for rolling saves....

....and then there is a second identical unit closeby in support of the first one ready to kill whatever you didnt lose against the first.

Yes, Grey Knights are screwed vs. bikernobs. One of the best current lists against a list widely regarded as the worst....and your telling us that they have a chance.

Yea.

No, I'm not interested in the bridge, thank you.

What exactly are you emplying? pfff your rude. This is basically what your saying, You make me laugh, your screwed, your wrong and you play the the worst army.
Who the **** do you think you are?! Aye? Not exactly friendly!
I'm not even going to put up the mathhammer up here but it's certainly more thought out than other peoples mathammer on GKT.

Is the painboy count as IC or UC?

Grey Knights are commonly regarded as the "worst" army because they're so expensive that it's virtually impossible to field enough models to be competitive. Add to that their horrible anti-vehicle options and you've got a very heavily handicapped list.

Beautiful army, awesome background material, not good on the field of battle.

Well obviously it's going to be harder, but there always means to maximise strengths and minimize weakneses.
Well actually I feel less handicapped than Space Marines, so how is that a handicap.
If I have forceweapons per codex and ignore eternal warrior, and my LRC moves 12" and fires 3 weapon systems...

at least your loyal to your army, hehehe. maybe you have weak competition that has given your army an inflated sense of competitiveness? Like the first time you tried piloting a plane against a clan in BF 1942, or played Age of Empires 2 online... ah the good days.

No one here thinks I'm biased against Grey Knights - heck, Scott Simpson and I took a GK/Sisters combo to the Doubles in Baltimore and won.

But the only way for a GKT squad to take on the nob bikerz is with the entire squad armed with TH/SS. Even then, you're talking a near-mutual-death situation.

Assume that the GK's are led by a GM, and that they charge out of a Land Raider Crusader.

Lets also Assume that the Nobz have 5 power klaws, plus the warboss.

Finally, lets assume that the GKT's get the charge, that the GM makes base with the warboss, and the squad flame first with two incinerators that hit 5 bikers each.
10 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 FNP. We'll be generous and say three wounds, all spread onto different models.

Situation 1: GKTs with NFW.
GM kills the warboss.
7 GKTs = 21 attacks (7x3) , 10.5 hits (WS5 v WS5), 7 wounds (S6 v T5), ~5 wounds (after 5+ inv).
Klaws - 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.25 wounds, ~4 past the invulnerable saves.
Regular attacks - 16 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds. Combat res is close enough that Orks probably don't lose, as they've lost 5 wounds, but have only lost the warboss. Next round, all GKTs die.

Situation 2: GKTs /w TH/SS
GM kills the warboss.
Orks do same damage - 5 models.
GKTs have 21 attacks, hit 10.5, wound 8.75, 5.83 past the inv save - lets say 6. So orks lose 7 bikers (including the warboss), and probably run from close combat. But there are still only 3 Terminators (including the GM) left, so the next squad of bikerz comes in and easily finishes off the squad.

Bill, what are the points differences between the two units?

The Ork nobs + warboss vs the GKTs +GM...

734pt unit: Land Raider Crusader + GM (Incinerator+Hammerhand) + Retinue Grey Knight Terminators (6)
I'm not too accurate with my mathammer, but i've added the parts you forgot.

Hurricane Boltguns (rapid fire) = 12
11 hit, 4 wound (just below), 1.333 failed saves (3+ I believe), 0.6666 wounds
Multi Melta Machine spirit
0.666 hit, 0.555 wound, 0.15 failed save? 0.3 wounds (instant death x2)

5 Stormbolter (10)
5 Hit, 1.75 wound, 0.6 failed save, 0.3 failed feel no pain

2 Incinerator
12 hit (due to deployment from LRC) 6 wound, 3 failed FNP saves = 3 wounds

GM kills Warboss
Then 6 GKT 18 attacks
9 hit, 6 wound, 4 unsaved wounds

4+3+0.3+0.3+0.66=8.26 + Warboss dead. GrandMaster
Depending on how many wounds Forceweapon death counts for in CC, it'll be 5 or 7 wounds in CC vs Orks mathammer of 4-5wounds.
Next turn I die after killing another bike... Hmm if only the LRC could join CC... ok Your right GKT won't beat Ork bikers, and ork bikers are a bigger bully than me but how many points is a unit of Warboss bikers?

My rough math shows the biker nobs to be 700-800pts depending on how many PKs you want.

storm knight wrote:734pt unit: Land Raider Crusader + GM (Incinerator+Hammerhand) + Retinue Grey Knight Terminators (6)
I'm not too accurate with my mathammer, but i've added the parts you forgot.

Hurricane Boltguns (rapid fire) = 12
11 hit, 4 wound (just below), 1.333 failed saves (3+ I believe), 0.6666 wounds
Multi Melta Machine spirit
0.666 hit, 0.555 wound, 0.15 failed save? 0.3 wounds (instant death x2)

5 Stormbolter (10)
5 Hit, 1.75 wound, 0.6 failed save, 0.3 failed feel no pain

2 Incinerator
12 hit (due to deployment from LRC) 6 wound, 3 failed FNP saves = 3 wounds

GM kills Warboss
Then 6 GKT 18 attacks
9 hit, 6 wound, 4 unsaved wounds

4+3+0.3+0.3+0.66=8.26 + Warboss dead. GrandMaster
Depending on how many wounds Forceweapon death counts for in CC, it'll be 5 or 7 wounds in CC vs Orks mathammer of 4-5wounds.
Next turn I die after killing another bike... Hmm if only the LRC could join CC... ok Your right GKT won't beat Ork bikers, and ork bikers are a bigger bully than me but how many points is a unit of Warboss bikers?

MM = .55 to wound? str 8 vs toughness 6?

storm knight wrote:734pt unit: Land Raider Crusader + GM (Incinerator+Hammerhand) + Retinue Grey Knight Terminators (6)
I'm not too accurate with my mathammer, but i've added the parts you forgot.

Hurricane Boltguns (rapid fire) = 12
11 hit, 4 wound (just below), 1.333 failed saves (3+ I believe), 0.6666 wounds
Multi Melta Machine spirit
0.666 hit, 0.555 wound, 0.15 failed save? 0.3 wounds (instant death x2)

5 Stormbolter (10)
5 Hit, 1.75 wound, 0.6 failed save, 0.3 failed feel no pain

2 Incinerator
12 hit (due to deployment from LRC) 6 wound, 3 failed FNP saves = 3 wounds

GM kills Warboss
Then 6 GKT 18 attacks
9 hit, 6 wound, 4 unsaved wounds

4+3+0.3+0.3+0.66=8.26 + Warboss dead. GrandMaster
Depending on how many wounds Forceweapon death counts for in CC, it'll be 5 or 7 wounds in CC vs Orks mathammer of 4-5wounds.
Next turn I die after killing another bike... Hmm if only the LRC could join CC... ok Your right GKT won't beat Ork bikers, and ork bikers are a bigger bully than me but how many points is a unit of Warboss bikers?

I could disagree with some of your numbers, but the important one - if you're machine spiriting the multi-melta, you get 1/3 of a chance to hit, most likely followed by either a 5+ inv or a 3+ cover save. Assuming we're talking a 3+ cover save (since if we're talking the 5+ save, your LRC was most likely just swamped with 21 S9/S10 power fist attacks), effectively, you can't count on the LRC to do anything. Either way, your NFM GKT's just won the combat by 1-3 wounds - not really enough to break the squad reliably, and to do that they lost almost 2/3 of their models.

I was generous, by the way, in allowing your GM to get in base with the Warboss. if he doesn't the warboss accounts for another 2-3 kills by himself (as he's WS6 with the biker nobz), and the squad almost certainly doesn't break.

760 points is the "nice" nob biker mob, with 10 models (including warboss and painboss), 4 power klaws (+1 on the warboss), cybork body, waagh banner, and every model being different.

GK Crusader hits with its normal BS. according to the FAQ

frgsinwntr wrote:GK Crusader hits with its normal BS. according to the FAQ

Hadn't noticed that. Thanks.

And how many of these anti-nob biker tactics work against other Take All Comers opponents?

whitedragon wrote:And how many of these anti-nob biker tactics work against other Take All Comers opponents?

Depends on the army.

And how many of these anti-nob biker tactics work against other Take All Comers opponents?

Truth be told, most of these options don't hold up much against the standard tournament opponents. They are meta-gaming to go against the top dog when the top dog is designed to take on everything. I play Daemons and flamers will be very spotty against Nob Bikers. The nob biker's footprint means that you hit fewer than an optimal amount and the speed of Nobs makes it hard to maneuver to flame them without getting assaulted/shot and wiped off of the table, even with a 4++.

Thunderhammer spam won't work well enough because you don't have the initiative over the powerclaws. In order to get the charge off you need to be in a LR and if that happens, you don't have the numbers to overwhelm the bikers. 3++ is good but not godly versus the number of 3+ to hit 2+ to wound PKs. This would probably just end up in both of them wiping each other out which is a win for SM. Now for the second squad...and the still living Warboss.

For optimal performance you need to have CC attacks (shooting even in large amounts is spotty at best because of 3+cover) that are str8+, strike at init higher than 1, good weapon skill (6WS+ with a reroll if at all possible), a large number of attacks (10+ preferred), and are hopefully resilient enough to take the attacks back from whatever lives so you can do it again to the second squad. In order to get the charge off you need to have high speed.

Skarbrand and a BT.

Dual charge, high maneuverability models. WS 10 so they hit on 3s with a reroll and between the two they will have 13 attacks that instakill with a Wind of Chaos in the shooting before the charge. This will cause between 6 and 7 unsaved wounds in CC that take a nob a wound. 4++ for the Daemons for the return swings on top of taking 4s RR'd to hit (5s RR'd if they killed off the Waagh Banner) and 2s to wound on whatever didn't die. Average return is a few wounds to the Daemons (maybe one even dies). If you add in anything else (3 DPs with Noxious Touch and Wings) then the Nobs will be wiped out to the warboss by 18inch range MC spam. Warboss loses by 10+ wounds (2 per dead nob) and even one surviving Greater Daemon and the nobs autobreak and get chased down by init 5 models or escorted off of the board. If they don't successfully pick apart the daemons on the turn they deepstrike it's a rough rough battle.

My new BA list put a big dent in them and I had very poor dice to boot. I next played a SW drop pod army and shred them.

G

whitedragon wrote:And how many of these anti-nob biker tactics work against other Take All Comers opponents?

Things tooled to handle the nob bikes tend to handle hordes poorly. I think this is largely why the list had the chance to be so successful in Baltimore; people are tooling for hordes and here comes a list that handles hordes fine and benefits from the metagame shift nicely.

Moz wrote:

whitedragon wrote:And how many of these anti-nob biker tactics work against other Take All Comers opponents?

Things tooled to handle the nob bikes tend to handle hordes poorly. I think this is largely why the list had the chance to be so successful in Baltimore; people are tooling for hordes and here comes a list that handles hordes fine and benefits from the metagame shift nicely.

Slight disagreement. Basically, it boils down to this:

If your list is tooled to handle the nob bikerz in assault, you'll probably do okay against hordes. Because surviving assault vs the nob bikerz means you can do some pretty extreme things and survive some pretty extreme situations.

If your list is tooled to deal with nob bikerz through shooting, (which is extremely tough to do), you're probably screwed.

I agree with Centurian. Dealing with Bikers in HtH can translate to hordes. My own experience is with Ironclads. They will tear through Nob Bikers and they will tie up and eventually take down 30 Ork troops.

How about 8 Bloodcrushers and Kairos Fateweaver for close to the same amount of points?

The blood crushers with fateweaver can take out the nob biker list.

G

Blood Crushers and Kairos 'might' take out the biker list. If Kairos is in range of the bloodcrushers, then he can get peppered by dakkaguns that wound on 4+ and with 30-60 twin linked shots coming downrange, they might even be able to force him to pop.

Bloodcrushers will only hit and wound on a 4+ if they don't get the charge off and with them only moving 6 inches a turn, you have the chance of the rest of your army getting wiped out by the bikers while they skirt around your bloodcrushers. You need more speed.

What about a 5man harlie squad, shadowseer + troupe master with 4 kisses and Yuriel. As theres only 8 wounds on that side (with inv sv's) could they score and wound more than they'd suffer? My idea is a high model/wounding ability ratio (assuming atleast one survives to run them all down!)

you guys are tossing out units... what we need are tactics.

3 things you can do

1)"Rhino wall" and hope to out shoot them with ranged str 8+ weapons

2)out assault the unit

3)attrition.

I believe these are what I came up with before I played against moz at the GT. The easiest to do is the rhino wall. But looking at the results I think attrition was the way to go. The Nob bikers can only kill one unit a turn if you make them make hard choices. Basically for my army I should have ran a rhino out to be a sacrafice. this rhino would have been in the middle of the table, so they would need to stop and deal with the stuff inside or ignore it and get shot. I think losing one unit a turn is the way to go as you whittle the orks down.

Blood Crushers can beat the snot out of the nob bikers and I have seen it done.

G

Fire prisms, two of em. Linkem and nuke a blast's worth.. Nigh on everything gets a cover save anyways in 5th

A biked farseer with mindwar has an effective 30' mindwar range and will nuke the poor painboys mind as it uses the models own LD.

An idea would be to have some terrain between that farseer and the nobz when the powers used to force them to make those dangerous terrain tests.

The above guts a nob biker squad quite well and its fairly verstile (Farseer biker goes with x, two fire prisms = win)

Lemartes wrote:How about 8 Bloodcrushers and Kairos Fateweaver for close to the same amount of points?

In that situation, you almost have to assume that the bloodcrushers are getting charged. If fateweaver's close enough to give the re-roll, he's also within charge range. Interesting situation.

Lets go with the same 4 power klaw, 8 nob + painboy + warboss /w klaw we've been using.

Shooting phase - nobz fire. For simplicity, 10 twin-linked dakkaguns (as opposed to the myriad kombiweapons the nobz have to make them all different)

30 shots, 16.6 hits, 8.3 wounds, .92 failed saves. We'll give them one wound.

Charging in - 1 nob w/o klaw hits fateweaver, everything else hits bloodcrushers. bloodcrushers get 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4 failed saves. Fateweaver gets 2 attacks, hits 1, wounds .5, .3 failed save, so we'll say he doesn't wound.

Nobs w/o PK attack - 4 on fateweaver, 2 hit, 1 wound...if fateweaver fails this, the Daemons just pack up and go home.
12 on bloodcrushers, 6 hit, 2 wound...pretty much same thing. Painboyz attacks similarly useless.

Powerklaw attacks:
16 nob attacks, 8 hit, 6.66 wounds, 2.96 past the save - we'll round up to 3, for 4 total wounds so far. No models removed from either side yet.
5 boss attacks, 3.33 hits, 2.78 wounds, 1.23 past the save - round down to 1, for 5 total wounds so far. First bloodcrusher removed.

Drawn combat, push to second round.

Interesting. Looks like fateweaver's saving the bloodcrushers butts. Next round, bloodcrushers are down to 21 attacks, and have no more expendable wounds. But after a long-drawn out combat, the bloodcrushers will win, as long as fateweaver's alive.

Lets look at it another way.

Orks shoot fateweaver. 16.6 hits, 8.3 wounds, 1 failed save. Charge in on fateweaver alone - 20 regular attacks, 21 power klaw attacks, and 4 urty syringe attacks. 14.44 wounds. Odds are in the Orks favor that Fateweaver fails both remaining saves and dies.

Bloodcrushers charge. 32 attacks, 16 hits, 10.66 wounds, 7.11 failed saves. No orks removed.

Ignoring the regular nobs+painboss...
Nob PKs = 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 3 failed saves.
Warboss PK = 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2.21 wounds, 2 failed saves.

If the orks don't break from combat res, I think Orks win this one - pyrhically, but its a win. Meanwhile the other nob biker squad is busy destroying the rest of the Daemon force.