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@scuddman: Where are you getting that from?

As I see it, the WD BA Codex was because GW had no intention of doing anything about BA for a while, and needed to break the link to the SM Codex. BA have the distinction of being the only SM Chapter without a distinctive Bitz sprue that allows GW to easily gauge their popularity.

SW, OTOH, have a dedicated upgrade sprue that supports a full Codex with distinctive miniatures. So it makes sense to keep the link in preparation for a 5E Codex & minis release.

I used to work for GW, and in one of my letters to Jervis commented that the BA codex in white dwarf was a good thing. The response I got implied that the higher ups didn't think so.
That month (it was a june issue I think) lots and lots of white dwarfs sold, but there wasn't any noticeable specific increase in Space Marine sales or Blood Angel direct orders in my region, so I pretty much had to agree with why they said so.

<shrug> The bean counters aren't gamers, they're business people analyzing a spread sheet.

Oh, one other thing. Lots of people come to the GW stores with ideas like free pdf's and why doesn't GW do this, and why doesn't GW do that. Well, those things won't happen unless you can pitch a bottom line. Everything in the company, from how red shirts are trained to how codecies are handled, are done with dollar signs in the eyes. I am not a big fan of catering to beginners. I think the game should cater to everyone, but unfortunately I've seen with my own eyes what makes money and what doesn't.

So small WotC codex supplements being sold along with 2nd relases and special characters with independent rulesheets FW style. Would this make money?

I think it can, privateer press does it fairly successfully. However, I don't think that's exactly what they're going for. I think the idea is to have two release waves. The main one with new mainstay models to sell, and then a smaller second one later with character models and things that didn't make the first cut. However the second wave would only have optional rules like apocalypse and what not.

The idea is after the initial buy people will come back to flesh out their armies. Releasing everything all at once in a tight two month window had the drawback of people avoiding some things for others. You get more initial sales releasing everything at once, but you get more overall sales slowly releasing things.

However, they would definitely not have a second set of rules. The idea is each armybook is stand alone by itself and requires no addons to play besides the main rulebook. As it is FAQS only get updated once in a blue moon.

Edit: Just to clarify, the reason why GW wants armybooks to be stand alone is so the game is an easy pick up. Magic is dominated by a tournament scene, warhammer is not. Veterans of magic have to buy a new set to play in tournaments all the time. Because GW doesn't have this restriction, fresh money is generated by fresh blood in the hobby. Take space marines. 3rd and 4th edition marines pretty much had the same units, 5th added in some new units, but the old units are still in there. You can make a legal army from models made over ten years ago.

Thats what makes me wonder. FAQs are free. Updated rules supplements they could charge for.

Wizards did and still does this. The thing that put me off about it was their early execution. You got half a rule book. They eventually realized that for business success that they had to give solid value at release.


I'm still waiting to get my hands back on the current issue of WD. If anyone has it, could you pls tell me how you read the second release section.

@scuddman: given that the BA WD Codex didn't change anything in the army list, nor did it add any units, *of course* there wouldn't be any sales over and above what's already embedded in the existing SM sales.

But if it sold a lot of WDs, then that at least demonstrates a noticable amount of additional interest.

And from what I see, the big problem for BA is finding a way to monetize the BA army separately and distinctively from a generic SM army.

As a 13 year Magic vet, GW is totally different. WotC is oriented to the tourney crowd and for Magic, it is the ProTour. They release waves of sets, each with news cards, rules, etc. GW doesn't seem likely to fall into this trap, because I noticed GW is based a lot on customer loyalty and retention of gamers. A gamer who plays Magic can quit and come back and need to buy whole new sets and get used to a new metagame, etc. Someone who picks up 40K can adjust to the new rules and pull out a lot of older models and be ready to go. What drives their sales are players like that who come back and want to get new stuff, new players who want armies, or regulars who want new armies. Also, they don't have to make as much product, since people won't have to sift through useless stuff, like "Limited" filler in Magic.

Anyhow, I think GW's release of multiple waves of models is just to build suspense and to ensure quality. Also, they can gauge sales and test the waters, etc. I think it is good marketing. I was so excited to get the new Nobs, I ran out and got them the first day I could because they obviously spent the time to make the product the best it could be. To me, that is key. WotC cranks out so many sets for Magic, it is absurd and the quality is not always so high.

Well, not sure if that was on topic, but it sure is long enough that it might have touched it once or twice.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@scuddman: given that the BA WD Codex didn't change anything in the army list, nor did it add any units, *of course* there wouldn't be any sales over and above what's already embedded in the existing SM sales.

But if it sold a lot of WDs, then that at least demonstrates a noticable amount of additional interest.

And from what I see, the big problem for BA is finding a way to monetize the BA army separately and distinctively from a generic SM army.

I think in the past GW wasn't sure how to handle things like BA. THe problem is that they're just too similar to normal marines, so they effectively compete with each other. There were some growing pains with the DA codex, BA white dwarf release, to the current space marine codex.
So instead of selling lots of white dwarfs at 6 bucks a pop, how about all those sales in a $25 dollar codex plus models to buy? That's superior to releasing a codex in white dwarf saleswise. It's also why space wolves will not get the blood angels treatment. My fear, though, is that the new space wolves codex will be too similar to space marines, and that causes problems. Dark angels are currently very similar to space marines, just worse, so it's hard to justify purchasing a dark angels codex. They need to not make the same mistake. The different codex chapters need to be distinctly different, and so far GW has not done a good job of doing that.

I read the article in question last night (Jervis's Standard Bearer). His mention of how releases will be handled from now on does not imply any WOTC style additions or mini-dexes. What he was describing is that the army book can now have units that don't exist(as a model), and may not exist for a while (6 months to a year). Take the War Shrine for example in the new Hordes of Chaos book. No model, no mention of a model.

However, in a year, they can release a War Shrine and maybe some other models (Chaos Warriors with some other option as an example) and have a Chaos Re-Hit so to speak. The additional information he mentioned that wasn't in the army book, would be Web and White Dwarf features on these models, some background, painting and modelling, etc. They are not going to put an entire new unit for the main game out independent of the Codex. They can release some rules for Apocalypse, but you won't see it for the main game.

Having worked for GW for 5 years, this is just the way they do things. I still have friends at GWUS and GWUK (in the studio) and I know this is what Jervis was talking about in the article.

Hope that clears things up.

Thank you JHall, your input helps greatly. Not all of us have worked for GW or are familiar withits inner politics or workings.

Lacking that connection I didn't know the full meaning. Either, He wasn't specific as to what the additional info would be, or I just missed the info due to lack of available time to read(It was a friends copy and I'm now waiting my turn).

Our group takes turns buying the WD that have info for our respective armies. With the price increase its proving to be a real money saver.

Thanks again

I think they've been doing it for a while.I was looking
through my codex orks last night and lo and behold
there is a picture that recently turned into an Ork
battlewagon.Also with the new Sm codex you can adapt
characters into your own army.I don't personally want
to see an upsurge in rules add ons,they are fine as they
are.I suspect that from now on that there won't be much
new rules ,more likely adaptable character and vehicle
stats that will be in the codexes and not in supplements.

I could definitely see a monthly-fee-based (or even use it to prop up WD and combine the two!) website that essentially charges for access to playtest documents being popular. That assumes they update them, which i don't see GW being particularly good at.

Only thing is with on-line subscriber stuff one guy can get the sub and share it with the rest of the world. Pow!

GW being like Wizards of the Coast? You mean, actually putting out a fantastic product that is fun, balanced, and playable?

Surely you jest, OP. Everybody knows that the collective intelligence of Those Who Rule at GW is roughly the same as a newt.

(I'm a fan of 4e D&D, BTW. Some people aren't, but w/e.)

@Ogiwan, If GW were like WotC:
- Product for which you bought sealed boxes of stuff with John Blanche (i.e. non-identifying) artwork on the cover
- individual boxes would contain a random selection of plastic sprues which may or may not actually fit together to make a unit or model.
- secondary sprue trading would be the only way to make a themed army
- models could be awesome or useless crap on the board (oh, wait...)
- sprues and bitz would be dated so that you could only use models produced within the last few years, otherwise you'd be forced to play Apocalyse (oh, wait, again... )
- competitive armies would require specific combo interactions between unusual units (and again... )
- stuff that is too good would be banned outright!
- players would think nothing of buying all-new armies every few years
- basic rules would be great, but you'd need an encyclopedia to keep up to date with all the errata
-

focusedfire wrote:The JanWWAAAUUUGGGHHHary 09 edition of WD. Is it me, or does it seem to hint that GW may start doing wizards of the coast style supplements to the codices or armylists.

It's in the article about being able to introduce models between codex releases.

What do you think? If they do such would it improve or harm the game?

The more than blatant hint has nothing to do with any Wizards of the Coast style of anything(thankfully).

It only refers to GW beginning a new practice of not just releasing new models when a new codex comes around, but also in future releases(or Waves as everyone has been calling them) in roughly 6 month intervals. Orks were the first army where this new release structure was very noticeable simply because of how many models needed to be done for the range. We'll see another couple of waves for the Orks to be sure. Not so much was needed for Space Marines, even with new units added to the codex, but we'll be seeing another wave for them too. Dark elves are getting a little bit more right now, and the most recent Empire released came out in waves too. And then there are the Dark Elder, being completely revamped from the sound of things, who will likely have as many as three waves of releases. Be sure to note that this has NOTHING to do with the release of further rules, just further models. Of course that doesn't mean we will never see some sort of special rules in WD again, but this hint only refers to model releases.

All I will say is that the new release structure is working, and it is working well. I have pretty much had a continuously high level of interest in working on and playing with my Ork army since the last army book came out, and I don't think that it is stepping out too much on a limb to say that that is exactly what GW wants this new release structure to accomplish. Of course I see this new release structure working better for those armies that need a lot of attention miniature-wise, but having even just minimal releases for the armies who do not need lots of attention is a nice little bone for GW to throw out there too and serves to keep interest up in general.

@shabbado- Never attempted to say it wasn't about the second wave minis being released. It was something he said and now that I have the book I'll ask everyone.


@everyone- This is the statement by Jervis that made me wonder.

"We very quickly realised that these 'second hits', as we'd started to call them, not only gave us the chance to bring out more models, they also gave us the opportunity to bring out additional written material that we hadn't been able to include in the Ork Codex. In other words, it was a wonderful opportunity to add more depth to the Ork army, both in terms of models and published material."


The first time I read this it was only a quick scan so I started this thread to get input. Tell me what you think.

An earlier poster says from his personal experience that this doesn't imply anything of the sort. I'm not really trying to argue the point. Just asking everyones take on the article.

I think the "extra published material" amounts to little more than a 2nd Batrep in WD and a puff piece that wasn't good enough to include in the Codex / Army Book.

Unless its Space Marines. Then, they get a new Codex, and a good half-dozen new models.

Focussed, Jeff Hall has already answered this, you're reading way too much into it. 'An opportunity to add depth' is GW marketing speak for 'sell you more stuff', not 'give you new rules'.

Wave releases are mostly done to renew the interest in said army. In the past GW used to release everything at once spread over two or three months, alongside some WD articles and the odd web article and background piece. After that, nada. Sure the new army would get a cameo in some cases as the antagonist of the inaugural battle report for the latest released army after them, but as soon as a "new" army is past the three or four months they are just like the others, get a ticket and stand in line and hope for something any time soon. Releasing stuff to coincide with big events (Medusa V had some nice updates and Nemesis Crown brought smashing reinforcements to the big three of that campaign) isn't exactly working out that well in the long run.

With releases at a one year interval they can not only renew interest, but also space things, don't rush it and make vague promises about certain things coming out instead of "meh".

Wave releases also justify extended waiting periods between codex
releases

I really do miss the Chapter Approved stuff. If they kept it to self-contained army lists. You wouldn't need to lug around a whole lot. Just one thing.
Things like Mounted daemonettes cause a bit of a ruckus because a very popular army needed one little thing to work.

To be honest, all they'd need to do is make the list non-competitive. As gamers we like options and if they'd just release us options, even if they suck, we will probably use them because we like to model things. This is a modeling hobby game after all. And if there's a really thematic list out there that sparks the imagination then I'm all for it.
Look at Kroot Mercenaries, not exactly the most competitive list (I think it had one silly build IIRC) but it offered lots of modeling opportunities and lots of flavor. This should be aimed at the veteran market, the market that needs a reason to buy more sprues of stuff to make more conversions which can generate sales from that dead horse you've been flogging for 20 years or so.

But that's just me.

Tribune wrote:Focussed, Jeff Hall has already answered this, you're reading way too much into it. 'An opportunity to add depth' is GW marketing speak for 'sell you more stuff', not 'give you new rules'.

I said I wasn't trying to argue with Mr Hall and I explained what events led to the original post. Please to read all of the thread before berating me. If anyone feels this thread needs to end then please say so. I'm just listening to what others have to say at this point.

focusedfire wrote:"We very quickly realised that these 'second hits', as we'd started to call them, not only gave us the chance to bring out more models, they also gave us the opportunity to bring out additional written material that we hadn't been able to include in the Ork Codex. In other words, it was a wonderful opportunity to add more depth to the Ork army, both in terms of models and published material."

The first time I read this it was only a quick scan so I started this thread to get input. Tell me what you think.

An earlier poster says from his personal experience that this doesn't imply anything of the sort. I'm not really trying to argue the point. Just asking everyones take on the article.

My impression is that he means adding more background info to the race, such as making up more fun little stories, building stories around special battle reports, etc.(i.e. writing stuff to fill space in White Dwarf). I wish he were referring to rules AND background. GW has had many months worth of chances to do something like this, but have not, so I think additional rules being added into White Dwarf for an army is not going to happen any time soon. Mind you I don't call the White Dwarf Codex: Blood Angels additional rules. That is an example of full rules. If they can't put certain things in the codexes due to space constraints, I'd love to see a series on them in White Dwarf.

I bet lots of people would like to see one each of a new(or old) hero and villain updated to the current edition of the game rules in every other issue(or at least quarterly) of White Dwarf. It could be set up either as a random two characters or as two characters that have faced off against one another, or it could be set up to cover a campaign. For example, a "Heroes and Villains of the Piscina IV Campaign" article might feature Interrogator-Chaplain Uriel, Sgt. Naaman, Nazdreg, and Bigboss Narfrag. It would also be a great way to introduce new miniatures for at least some of the revisited(or *NEW*) characters too, and to draw interest to certain armies in between codex release as they are doing now with their releasing things in waves. They did articles like this not too long ago, but they were always featuring stuff that was cut-n'-pasted from the latest codex release, so not really anything new at all and just page filler. Heck, they could milk the Space Marine chapters for I don’t know how long, let alone all of the other races.

reds8n wrote:The latest editions of their flagship games are poorly received and leaked online as well.

4th Ed D&D makes me want to punch babies.

focusedfire wrote:

Tribune wrote:Focussed, Jeff Hall has already answered this, you're reading way too much into it. 'An opportunity to add depth' is GW marketing speak for 'sell you more stuff', not 'give you new rules'.

I said I wasn't trying to argue with Mr Hall and I explained what events led to the original post. Please to read all of the thread before berating me. If anyone feels this thread needs to end then please say so. I'm just listening to what others have to say at this point.

I'm not berating you, you asked me what I think. That's what I think (well, basically, know) the quoted section actually means.

I generally try to do posters the justice of reading what they've put, so I'd prefer not to be told I don't, by the way. Nothing personal there.

I am sorry if you took offense to the "please read"thread statement. I thought that my reply to Mr Hall had made my stance clear but apparently not.I only posted the Quote for clarification.

Again pls to let me know if anyone feels thread should move to Dakka discussions, end, or is everyone happy with it here.

Having played numerous card games over the years in a competitive environment (including Magic the Gathering), I have to say that I hope GW does not change the system so that they are forced to limit or ban new or old models/rules. Although new elements to an already great game are what we all need, want, and definitely what GW must continue to do if they want to keep players interested. However, I can speak from experience that the WotC rubric, is all about enticing new players NOT keeping old ones.

For those of you, who don't or haven't ever played Magic or are aware of its release style, then let me explain. Basically, there is a core set. This can be equated to your codex. It has all of the basic "stuff" you'll need to play the game. Then there is the "current block." This is the revolving mass of cards that get phased out of Type 2 (the common tournament style), every year and a half to two years. Once they are phased out, the cards go into Type 1, which has every sort of card imaginable. Meaning that, if you haven't played the game for quite some time, you might as well just throw away your current set of cards and buy the new Type 2 stuff, because there is almost no way that you will be able to stay competitive with your current library of stuff. Basically throwing your money away.

The way you could equate it to GW is by saying that in normal games you need a small amount income to get into. But non-normal games, i.e. some variant of the Type 1 style, you would be forced to play against models and rules that make your unit of SM or DE obsolete, unless you shelled out the big bucks to get those "out-of-print" models. That equals no fun in my book.

The current format for GW allows you to invest in army that you like, not because you have to, but because you want to. You get to look through all of the different codexes, lore, and models and find something that matches your taste. I hope the GW finds a way to continue to honor new and old players by enhancing the current system, not changing it to reflect the cut-throat world that WotC has created.

focusedfire wrote:@Carmachu, The article hinted at new models with new rules not in codex. IMHO The only way they could do this is a Wizards style supplement release.

Started this thread to see if anyone else got the same hint. If so, then how they think GW would do it. And, Would it improve or hurt the game?

Personally, I like the idea. As long as they don't use it as an excuse to give you half a codex like wizards would.

Might they have been describing releases of Apocalypse Data Sheets