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Fafnir wrote:Cheaper, plastic kits. It's hard to build an army with immortals, pariahs, wraiths, flayed ones, and the like because they're just so damn expensive.

Really? I've got something like 150 metal IG, 80 metal SoB, and 200+ metal Eldar.

Give or take a few dozen here or there - it's hard to keep track when you've got so much stuff...

Anyhow, if you can't afford it, don't play it.

If you're budget constrained, don't start a mostly metal army. Plan on a mostly-plastic army instead. Play AoBR / Battleforce Marines.

lol no of course its not expensive spending £210 on immortals, damn i really wish i was rich like you. Your so rich and cool yeah you have 200+ metal eldar models dang your rich, are you on the rich list?

Thats some serious money, have you left an heir, he could build a skyscraper man your so rich.

(If you dont get the hint)

Bragging about how you have spent an un-holy amount on warhammer doesnt mean anything, the lists SHOULD and CAN all be viable in the form of plastic kits.

I'd like to live in a $1M home and have a Aston as my daily driver, but you don't hear me whining about it.

Whining that you can't play a certain army because you're too po' is pointless.

The point is, you pay up, or you do without. Simple as that. I won't pay $50 for 5 plastic Termies, so I do without.

And FWIW, it's probably <$10k US all told. I don't think it's "serious money" unless you're very po'

Well as a student i cant comment on whats poor and whats not, we are all poor (apart from the very few).

But i still think saying people are (po) because they wont pay £210 for 30 models is just a sign of your lack of compassion and your thriving gw addiction.

This conversation is pointless anyway, plastic immortals can help us (poor) people out.

If you're a student, you should pick a cheaper army, simple as that.

It's a luxury hobby, not some kind of entitlement.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Anyhow, if you can't afford it, don't play it.

If you're budget constrained, don't start a mostly metal army. Plan on a mostly-plastic army instead. Play AoBR / Battleforce Marines.

I don't think the OP was saying "waaaah, 40K is too expensive" so much as pointing out that GW would probably sell more Necron armies if those models were available at a lower price point.

MrGiggles wrote:To be honest though, I'd like Necrons to just be weird. Right now, they are different from Marines, but not incredibly so. The current units definitely need some more thought and there are a lot of good ideas here, but I'd really like to see some strange as hell unit abilities and lord powers (and the next bit is the harder part) which work well in game.

I think that's part of what I was getting at earlier. The fluff, models and rules aren't in harmony like they should be. In games, the army plays like a bunch of MEq T800 Model 101s. The models evoke stylized and streamlined high-tech robots. Meanwhile, the fluff suggests scary, ancient, Lovecraftian space undead. It's like they tried to pack in a myriad of themes, but they ended up canceling each other out, leaving a bland army that lacks focus.

gorgon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Anyhow, if you can't afford it, don't play it.

If you're budget constrained, don't start a mostly metal army. Plan on a mostly-plastic army instead. Play AoBR / Battleforce Marines.

I don't think the OP was saying "waaaah, 40K is too expensive" so much as pointing out that GW would probably sell more Necron armies if those models were available at a lower price point.

I dunno...

Anyhow, even if the models were (somewhat) cheaper, that doesn't mean there would be more Necron armies. It does mean that GW would get less revenue per model.

Does JohnHwangDD work for GW or something, is he working on some sort of underground advertising project?

10k is alot of money on a hobby for alot of people, especially us poor students. Please dont rub it in just for fun when you know plastic kits would solve the situation.

Its like dealing with Mcain all over again.

Haha, no, I don't work for GW... Never even considered it.

GW is my primary hobby / luxury, and I'm not afraid to throw some money each year at it to get what I want. I've been at it for many years, which has allowed me to accumulate a lot of minis. That is the primary difference between you and I.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'd like to live in a $1M home and have a Aston as my daily driver, but you don't hear me whining about it.

Whining that you can't play a certain army because you're too po' is pointless.

The point is, you pay up, or you do without. Simple as that. I won't pay $50 for 5 plastic Termies, so I do without.

And FWIW, it's probably <$10k US all told. I don't think it's "serious money" unless you're very po'

Less than $10k but still fairly close to it is damn serious money for a hobby I have to tell you, imho at the very least. If you don't think that, well you're doing pretty damn well for yourself whether you realize it or not.

To get back on subject though, I think cheaper kits (which of course means making the current metals available as plastics) would help a great deal in attracting new players and keeping old ones. If people can't afford what they want they don't play it, and sometimes that means they don't play at all, and I think that's unfortunate. The hobby should be priced similarly all the way around so you can feel free to pursue the factions that appeal to you. That should help to keep the hobby growing and keep it diverse and alive as the years go on.

From a mechanical standpoint, well I'm new to this, though a friend of mine does play Necrons. One of the biggest useful things I can see from seeing him play and playing him are more troop choices. Or if they're determined to keep only warriors they truly need to make them a jack of all trades, because right now they can't do everything acceptably and nothing exceptionally. So if you're stuck always taking them, and a fair number of them, they need to perform acceptably against every possible opponent. I do like the T increase and armor lowering ideas from above for one.

Well said Neconilis.

I think JohnHwangDD's point is that he's been playing for some time and has accumulated a lot over the years (although totting up the total spent makes him a braver man than I).

Regardless of who's right or wrong on budgets, plastic is the way GW is going and come the Necron release, I'm guessing there will be a lot of plastic sets to go with them.

If I had to put a dollar value on the money I've spent on GW stuff, I'd guess it to be something like $6,000 USD +/- $1000 USD.

This goes back to the tail end of 2E, so it's averaging <$500 per year, or around $40 per month. Over the past few years, I've cut my hobby budget back to $30 per month, with a GW budget of around $25 per month.

I know I've done OK for myself, and I make no bones about it. Though, I think if you were to poll Dakka, you'd find that the majority of players are doing OK, also.

FWIW, when I think of "serious money" hobbies, I think of things like motorsport and sailing. GW is chump change, by comparison.

But back to Necrons, I'm not sure that every army should be the same in effectiveness against every other other army, and that everything costs the same. Some armies have economies of scale that support lower prices and subsidize things.

Darth wrote:
But i still think saying people are (po) because they wont pay £210 for 30 models is just a sign of your lack of compassion and your thriving gw addiction.

Who pays full price for a purchase like that?

That's what the internet is for, friend.

I got all my Immortals at 1/2 off retail. Doesn't make me rich, doesn't make me a man of zero compassion. It makes me a savvy shopper.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you're a student, you should pick a cheaper army, simple as that.

It's a luxury hobby, not some kind of entitlement.

Owning Ferrari is a luxury hobby.

Snorting cocaine off a super model's nude flesh is a luxury hobby.

GW games are not luxury, they're just hobby.

As for Necrons?
Perhaps they need to drop necron armor and we'll be back in favor of a army wide feel no pain?
They certainly do need to fix those blasted monoliths, at 250 points they're beyond over powered - especially that "living armor" nonsense.

That Ferrari is only a hobby because you have to pay for continuous Ferrari maintenance or the car won't run...

GW games are a luxury compared to checkers, chess, or backgammon.

im not even going to get into the poor student debate. i make less then 10k a year, pay for school myself and im a full time student. in that 40k is a hobby and should be treated as such. if you want in, you gotta give the cash. there are many other ways to get models then buying from GW, and i use them all.

on topic:

i dont play necrons, but i wouldlike to see:

1. T6, FNP Fearless no save Warriors
2. Rending Flayed ones
3. Power weapon Wraiths
4. FNP chumps WBB.
5. Warriors and flayed ones, only troop choices.

1. Phase out to go away.

2. More vehicle and unit options, in all areas. (Personally after reading some of the fluff, Immortals felt more like what the warriors should have been, but as troops (at least for earlier editions) they might have been a bit too powerfull.)

3) Stubborn, WBB to FNP or without number (I sort of like the latter one, from the fluff as well. On the side of the current dex, "Their Number is Legion". Several other places where necrons are encountered it seems they come in vast numbers.)

4) More wargear and weapon options (They're supposed to be the most technologically advanced race, show us some).

5) Gauss as is + AP1 vs vehicles. Disruptions fields to rending.

6) Special characters that can alter the force org. I like the idea of special forces, which aren't necessarily backed up by the ubiquitous warriors. A 'wraithlord' with several groups of wraiths, a actual destroyer wing led by a destroyer lord (though this one might be a bit too much as destroyers currently are.)

7) Update the special rules to be more appropriate for the current state of the game. For instance, the Flayed Ones 'Terrifying Visage' is just about useless. Squads that aren't fearless are ones that you don't tend to need the rule to help with.

1. Army wide Fearless (not Stubborn). This makes the most sense game wise and supports the fiction.
2. WBB to FnP
3. Gauss and Disruption Fields become AP1 Rending.
4. Pariahs become "Necrons" for teleport and FnP. (I.e. they are worth taking and not outclassed by Immortals)
5. Remove Phase Out.

6. Simplify the Living Metal rule! Years of arguments and FAQ's show that it's a bad rule. Just simplify it. -1 to all damage rolls or something.

~Logic

What fiction that points to them being fearless are you referring to? I'd like to read it.

Codex calls them fearless, since they're innanimate metal chunks, but says that they are cold and calculating, and as such, know when to run. It's basicly a reason to make them not fearless.

dancingcricket wrote:What fiction that points to them being fearless are you referring to? I'd like to read it.

I can't think of a single source that doesn't describe them or their actions as fearless. Necrons generally lack emotion. Stubborn is an emotion, fearless is the absence of a particular emotion, "fear". The fiction has changed in many stories and short stories. But here are several good sources:

Necron Codex

Necron section of the Apocalypse rulebook

Caves of Ice (plus the preceding short story in the Caiphas Cain omnibus)

Dawn of War omnibus

Nightbringer

Necrons are described as fearlessly and relentlessly advancing. Those are defining characteristics of the race if you read through all their fiction.

P.S. Necrons can make a tactical retreat when the Necron player strategically moves them away from the enemy. Having them cut down in melee by losing a Stubborn leadership test or having them run off the board is not a strategic withdrawl. It's neither strategic nor advantageous. And that's more in-line with cowards running away.

Also: My number 7: Give all Infantry Necrons Slow-and-Purposeful. (Flayed Ones can be given an exception).

~Logic

Fafnir wrote:Codex calls them fearless, since they're innanimate metal chunks, but says that they are cold and calculating, and as such, know when to run. It's basicly a reason to make them not fearless.

They were fearless in 2nd edition and for most of 3rd. They only got normal morale with the current codex.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the fluff case for Fearless kinda depends what aspect of the fluff you're paying attention to. Necrons as faceless robots should probably be Fearless. Necrons as containers for the souls of the Necrontyr, a race with a pathological fear of death, should probably have to deal with psychology.

IMO, Necrons can be made to work well without Fearless as long as you make other changes. The whole issue right now is Necrons in CC, right? Maybe the answer is to make them harder to damage through a T boost and FNP, or some other change. What if Necrons received some armywide form of Terrifying Visage? Like I said before, Necrons are supposed to be scary but it never really translates to the tabletop.

This all ties back to my comment that the designer's approach is going to be key here. IMO, the army requires an imagination infusion. If the designer leaves too many things alone and relies on quick fixes like Fearless or Rending, I think we'll end up kinda disappointed. Deck chairs will move, but it won't become a more interesting army to build or play.

Addition - MODELS!

I cannot imagine anyone assembling the plastic Necron warriors for fun. All the hassle of mutlipart plastics but with only 1 real pose, no conversion bitz AND they barely fit on the base.

AND fiddly little glow sticks to add after painting.

The warriors are a kit in major need of re-engineering. Adding some battle damaged parts would be a start, creating a flayed one conversion kit (claws and a skin cloak) might be another.