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pavonis wrote:Hey, what are people's thoughts about making a Christianity themed SM chapter? Someone at my FLGS said there was no Christianity in 40k and that people and GW shuns that. But I look at the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Sisters and see Christianity all over in them. Space Marines are even called the Angels of Death.

Such SM chapters use themes and imagery, but no direct religous message. You don't see a crucifix in their imagery. It's meant to convey an atmosphere similar to that of medieval europe, nothing more.


Christianity as such does not exist in 40k, there is only the Cult of the Emperor and its variations. anything else would be Heresy.

So my question is what would people really think? Would they really care? I'm not talking about making a model called God. Just something like humble units that wear burlap (think Dark Angels tabbards and robes in a tan/beige color with cross-hatching to look like burlap). Possibly call them, The Way. Maybe paint angel wings on the jumppacks (more like the seraphim) and possibly put shephard crooks on the librarians. Thoughts?

A real world religious themed army to me personally would be a huge turn off. Not only does it not fit into the fluff of the game, inserting real world things (like IG armies with humvees and abrams tanks instead of Chimeras and Leman Russ tanks) and images takes one out of the game world, it detracts from the setting and experience, kinda like a cell phone in a movie. It also can introduce awkwardness if the RL theme makes someone uncomfortable.

If your army was just sort of churchy themed that would be one thing, but playing it as Christian Space Marines would be kinda silly to me. To me it sounds more the former, which is fine, as long as its not taken overboard to the point where it seems out of place in the 40k universe.

Using real world stuff as inspiration (such as a uniform color or camo scheme or some such) is one thing. For instance, it's one thing to recreate german camo patterns for your IG army, it's another altogether to try and make your IG army the 1st SS division replete with insignia.

That said, I wouldn't refuse to play most RL themed armies unless I found them truly repellent, but I would think they were kinda corny.

Is anyone actually reading the Ops ideas here? What he has posited sounds completely fine to me, and has less religious connotation than your average Imperial force:

humble units that wear burlap (think Dark Angels tabbards and robes in a tan/beige color with cross-hatching to look like burlap). Possibly call them, The Way. Maybe paint angel wings on the jumppacks (more like the seraphim) and possibly put shephard crooks on the librarians

Agreed that sounds fine/

Frazzled wrote:I would NOT make a religion based chapter of any current faith. Although your intent may be pure, it just screams bad faith and arguments from those who would get offended.

I completely agree with this.

Someone somewhere will be offended if you make a chapter too close to a real world religion.

Players ought to have the sense to know that a lot of people take religion seriously and get very offended when they see it taken lightly.

s.j.mccartney wrote:Christians have just been genius and taken all the history and repackaged it to make it their own, but its almost the same stories being replayed...

I fixed that statement for you. GW definitely likes to "borrow" material, but they are far from the first to do so.


To the OP, take your idea and run with it. Nobody is going to stop you. Just be aware that some people may take offense (on both sides).
My view is to approach a gaming group as you would appropriate dinner conversation. No religion, no politics, and don't mention uncle Frank's little peculiarities.

Basing your iconography on devout Emperor worship would be a better way to go, methinks. There's plenty to work with there without dragging more of the real world into it than is already there.

If you believe that the bible "had it all first" i think you should stock up on ALOT of history classes at your current school or go to night school. Seriously, thats just dang ig'nant.

blue loki wrote:

s.j.mccartney wrote:Christians have just been genius and taken all the history and repackaged it to make it their own, but its almost the same stories being replayed...

I fixed that statement for you. GW definitely likes to "borrow" material, but they are far from the first to do so.


To the OP, take your idea and run with it. Nobody is going to stop you. Just be aware that some people may take offense (on both sides).
My view is to approach a gaming group as you would appropriate dinner conversation. No religion, no politics, and don't mention uncle Frank's little peculiarities.

Basing your iconography on devout Emperor worship would be a better way to go, methinks. There's plenty to work with there without dragging more of the real world into it than is already there.

Stop you...no. But you could get thrown out of the tournament or the club. Disbelieve? There was a big stink about a painting entry which had Madonna and Child imagery that was thrown out (IIRC).

You don't need Christianity in 40k, not when you have (see attached).

The God Emperor is the Second Coming of Christ, and anyone who says otherwise should report to your local Inquisitor for immediate immolation...

Cheers

Quoting myself from another thread:

The real keys are "why did you choose this theme/color scheme/etc" and "does this feel like an organic part of the 40k universe, or like a historical force dropped head first into 40k." If you decide you like the idea of grim, forboding troopers fighting in parade dress, then Mordians painted up in black, red, white and silver makes sense, as those are dour colors (just look at the entire Sisters line up). Do they look a little like SS troopers? Sure, but this is convergent evolution: two distinct cohorts independently choosing the same adaptations. On the flip side, if you paint little nazi arm bands on the mordians, that's an attempt to more directly import a historical idea into 40k.

If you build a Christian crusading army because you are a practicing Christian, I think most people would let the first element slide for you. It would make sense that you want an army that lives for the ideals that you yourself have.

For the second element, things get more interesting. There clearly aren't Christians in the canonical 40k fluff, but there's plenty of grey areas in the fringes for cults, and as odd as it sounds, Christianity would be an obscure cult in that universe. Based on this, any army would have far more subtle markings and more downplayed themes. Building an army called the "Soldiers of Christs" marked with crosses everywhere would stick out pretty dramatically in 40k. Building an army called the "Brotherhood of the Word" with an open book as chapter badge, and the alpha shaped fish symbol for company markings would fit right in.

Buddhists in 40k wouldn't fight you as an army, but the key 'army' pieces would all have self-immolation devices that act as a large blast centred on the model (and does not scatter) killing it, and delivering a S6 AP4 hit to any other model it touches.

They would do this as a way of making you deal with your own sh!t.

I've got three friends who had themed IG armies. They played in tournaments and never once got a complaint about their armies. No-one in the club objected to them, either, but none of them took the game remotely seriously either.

One had his Izran IG, white and blue scheme, fighting under a 6 pointed star banner. His tanks had curly script (arabic) taunting the 'enemy'. (He is ex-IDF tanker, and this is what they did) - His commander was even known as "Ze'ev" - his name in Hebrew. He is an israeli.

One of the others, had a german themed IG force. WW2 german. Commisars in black with armbands (red with a white circle). The logo wasn't so much an iron cross as 4 'L' shapes arranged around a commpon centre to give the impression of a cross. His father and grandfather fought in the german army in WW2.

The third had Tallarn guardsmen. Complete with camel-riding rough riders and demolition charge wearing loonies. He is lebanese.

They go out for drinks together. None of their parents probably would. Ironically, the Israeli's parent's drive a merc (while still maintaining the rage against the germans).

The OPs concept could work. With the right group.


Of course, the odds on this happening in his country are as close to nil as to be indistinguishable.

Honestly, I thought it would be an interesting and different looking army. I wanted something unique. Almost every SM army looks the same, sure, different colors, but still all the same parts. BT, DA and BA have some different models, but still pretty consistant and they should be, they are Space Marines. Pretty much every major color is already taken with an existing chapter so it is tough to find something people wouldn't confuse for something else.
The reason I asked is because I don't want to offend someone. If everyone would have come back saying no big deal, knock yourself out, I'd consider going forward with it. Since there seems to be some discussion whether it is a good idea, I won't go forward with it.
I would never have said it was a 'Christian' army unless someone asked me about it, though I was toying around with a crusader shield which has more of a cross like symbol on it.
More similarities: Sammael is an IC for the DarkAngels which is another name for Satan. Baal a demon/god, Sisters (nuns and sister superiors, saints, etc), witch hunters, inquisitions, etc. I could go on for hours with the parallels and copies. Though I do also agree that pretty much every culture has their own form of angels so they aren't specifically Christian.

chromedog wrote:Buddhists in 40k wouldn't fight you as an army, but the key 'army' pieces would all have self-immolation devices that act as a large blast centred on the model (and does not scatter) killing it, and delivering a S6 AP4 hit to any other model it touches.

I've got three friends who had themed IG armies. They played in tournaments and never once got a complaint about their armies. No-one in the club objected to them, either, but none of them took the game remotely seriously either.

One had his Izran IG, white and blue scheme, fighting under a 6 pointed star banner. His tanks had curly script (arabic) taunting the 'enemy'. (He is ex-IDF tanker, and this is what they did) - His commander was even known as "Ze'ev" - his name in Hebrew. He is an israeli.

One of the others, had a german themed IG force. WW2 german. Commisars in black with armbands (red with a white circle). The logo wasn't so much an iron cross as 4 'L' shapes arranged around a commpon centre to give the impression of a cross. His father and grandfather fought in the german army in WW2.

The third had Tallarn guardsmen. Complete with camel-riding rough riders and demolition charge wearing loonies. He is lebanese.

Yea, none of this is true.

Also buddhists arent all flower children, thats a stereotype bro, they can fight people (brutally) just like anyone else,

Taco_bat wrote:Also buddhists arent all flower children, thats a stereotype bro, they can fight people (brutally) just like anyone else,

Actually one of the Buddhist preceps is violence is not permited towards sentient beings. If they are "brutally" fighting people they're not really being the best buddhists around.

I'm seeing a lot of ignorance regarding Buddhism.

chromedog wrote:One had his Izran IG, white and blue scheme, fighting under a 6 pointed star banner. His tanks had curly script (arabic) taunting the 'enemy'. (He is ex-IDF tanker, and this is what they did) - His commander was even known as "Ze'ev" - his name in Hebrew. He is an israeli.

One of the others, had a german themed IG force. WW2 german. Commisars in black with armbands (red with a white circle). The logo wasn't so much an iron cross as 4 'L' shapes arranged around a commpon centre to give the impression of a cross. His father and grandfather fought in the german army in WW2.

Let me guess, this is either total bs or they aint friends with each other. Also could you let your friend with the 4L'd swastika IG army know i'd personally like to give him a slap then throw him through a window.

Oh I know buddhists CAN fight, it's just the ones I know would rather not bring it to you. If you bring the fight to them, however, it's a whole different can of whupass! they'll open up on you.

The Israeli IG/tallarn lebanese IG and German IG were real, though. This was up until the start of 3.5ed (when the 'trial assault/vehicle rules' came out.)

It must be said, though, that although the armies did have a nationalist feel and theme, none of them (players) were particularly religious or indeed offended by religious imagery.

whatwhat wrote:

Taco_bat wrote:Also buddhists arent all flower children, thats a stereotype bro, they can fight people (brutally) just like anyone else,

Actually one of the Buddhist preceps is violence is not permited towards sentient beings. If they are "brutally" fighting people they're not really being the best buddhists around.

Uh pretty much all religions preach non-violence, how well has that worked out again?

chromedog wrote:

The Israeli IG/tallarn lebanese IG and German IG were real, though. This was up until the start of 3.5ed (when the 'trial assault/vehicle rules' came out.)

Hey dude tell me about your feminist friend with the all female guard army.

And your Romanian friend with the Iron Guard themed army.

srsly stop lying.

Taco_bat wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Taco_bat wrote:Also buddhists arent all flower children, thats a stereotype bro, they can fight people (brutally) just like anyone else,

Actually one of the Buddhist preceps is violence is not permited towards sentient beings. If they are "brutally" fighting people they're not really being the best buddhists around.

Uh pretty much all religions preach non-violence, how well has that worked out again?

Considering when china invaded tibet they pretty much just upped and left I think it's fair to say the emphasis on non violence with Budhism is a little greater than others.

@whatwhat:

The '4 L ' shapes didn't make a swastika. They were the outlines of a square cross. So you had a reversed 'L', the right 'L' and underneath a reversed 'Gamma' and 'Gamma' (much like the MODERN german army cross, only without the black cross in the centre. NOT the broken limbed cross. The cross that is still used by them.

The guys WERE best mates, actually. Despite their parent's objections (all were over 18 and living away from the parents). They all regularly went out to the local pub for beers. Like I said, none were particularly religious (alcohol was against the rules for at least two of them otherwise). None of them took 40k that seriously, either.

The German player would take you up on the slap, and if you wish to find him, he's somewhere in Afghanistan, ATM. His commissars weren't radically different from the artwork of the time. Long black coats, and some did have red armbands. No crosses or markings of any kind were on the white circle, though.

There are really several levels to this issue; first, what's a good idea for yourself and your circle of gaming buds, and the level of an army that you may be taking places.

On the first bit, only you know what your club will and won't go for; a Black Templar army themes around the Crusader armies, say with a Captain Richard the Lionhearted? Probably fine most anywhere. An Eldar army using the theme, colors and iconography of the IDF? Probably okay most places, but more likely to get some looks and more depending on your circles. A Chaos Space marine army based around the SS Totenkopf? Gonna get a lotta looks (and probably more the looks) in most places. In the end, only you can gather what your group is okay with, and only you can judge how much energy you feel comfortable putting into a labor of love that can be misinterpreted as endorsing something you may not want to endorse.

Related to that is the second bit: I don't know for a fact, but my understanding is that anything even questionable is not going to be permitted at a GW sanctioned event. In addition you run into the problem that most of the really thematic models you'll need for conversions and so on may not be GW models, so you can run into problems of basic eligibility. Besides, unless you never plan to take your army out of your local club, the more you invest in converting the more you run the risk of having an army that can't travel for fear of offending the locals. Nobody wants to go to a distant FLGS, open his case and discover just how poorly his joke goes over with the locals.

Finally, there is simply the issue of what happens when, inevitably, your lovingly converted and meaningful army loses? A sincere Christian making a Second-Coming themed army is one thing, having a Bloodthirster eat your Risen Christ, or a tentacle-faced Broodlord do the monster mash with a Battle Mary Magdeline can either be very funny or very friendship ending. Sometimes it's a good idea to have a bit of emotional distance between player and army.

chromedog wrote:@whatwhat:

The German player would take you up on the slap, and if you wish to find him, he's somewhere in Afghanistan, ATM.

lol ok then. Why might I ask is he in Afghanistan. Or are you by saying that, suggesting that he is in the military, therefore I should be scared of him?

You should write novels, you and your german, israli and lebonese mates together.

whatwhat wrote:

Considering when china invaded tibet they pretty much just upped and left I think it's fair to say the emphasis on non violence with Budhism is a little greater than others.

Japan ww2 bro

The guys WERE best mates, actually. Despite their parent's objections (all were over 18 and living away from the parents). They all regularly went out to the local pub for beers. Like I said, none were particularly religious (alcohol was against the rules for at least two of them otherwise). None of them took 40k that seriously, either.

The German player would take you up on the slap, and if you wish to find him, he's somewhere in Afghanistan, ATM. His commissars weren't radically different from the artwork of the time. Long black coats, and some did have red armbands. No crosses or markings of any kind were on the white circle, though.

srsly stop with the fluff it doesnt make you sound any more believable, just move on.

ADF, currently serving OS. Due to be rotated home sometime soon, though. He says he's sick of the sand. He lives in Broome, now (upper NW of Western Oz - lol. he's surrounded by sand at home, too.)

He was born here, and has been in the forces for the past 19 years (10 as regular army).

Taco_bat wrote:Japan ww2 bro

Japan ww2, what?

chromedog wrote:ADF, currently serving OS. Due to be rotated home sometime soon, though. He says he's sick of the sand. He lives in Broome, now (upper NW of Western Oz - lol. he's surrounded by sand at home, too.)

He was born here, and has been in the forces for the past 19 years (10 as regular army).

Wow more bs. So because he's in the military he's dead hard right?

chromedog wrote:ADF, currently serving OS. Due to be rotated home sometime soon, though. He says he's sick of the sand. He lives in Broome, now (upper NW of Western Oz - lol. he's surrounded by sand at home, too.)

He was born here, and has been in the forces for the past 19 years (10 as regular army).

can we have his facebook, contact details and pics of original army too ? thx

also Judaism doesnt prohibit alcohol.

whatwhat wrote:

Taco_bat wrote:Japan ww2 bro

Japan ww2, what?

Buddism was extremely prevelant in the Japanese military of WW2

Taco_bat wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Taco_bat wrote:Japan ww2 bro

Japan ww2, what?

Buddism was extremely prevelant in the Japanese military of WW2

K, can't say I know much about that area so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Surely you can see where the pacifist stereotype stems from though?

whatwhat wrote:

K, can't say I know much about that area so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Surely you can see where the pacifist stereotype stems from though?

For sure!