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That's pretty sweet.

I have played Blood Angels since the start of fifth edition. I have started to develop a pretty good track record with them but have yet to take them to a tournament. I started them because I liked the list, and I believe that conceptually it is the best organized SM list. I still think they should have just added the new units and tweaked the cost of other things for the new Marine Codex, but that is neither here nor there.

Here are a few general tips I have picked up, and you can apply them as you will.

Assault Marines as troops are good, but they are an all or nothing type list entry, meaning if you are going to field them, you are better putting a crap ton of Marines down, rather then the occasional one or two units. Taken in small numbers Assault Marines tend to be rather large targets and don't tend to survive long. A unit of ten works well when paired with 8 to 10 Jumping Death Company, for example.

The Tactical Marine Squad in a Rhino is our bread and butter. Generally a full 10 Man Squad with a special weapon and a powerweapon or powerfist is cheaper then a 10 Man Assault Squad, is more survivable (because of the transport) and is generally more flexible. I tend to stick to Flamer or Meltagun for the option to charge after my transport is busted. The Rhino is 50% of the time is even as quick as assault marines! Rule of thumb with them is to not be too aggressive, let your opponent either ignore them or destroy the Rhino, just make sure the squad is in position around turn two or three to be in range of an objective.

I saw your Terminator thread and I will address it here. I love BA Terminators because, technically, our Terminators are the cheapest because they come with a DC marine. Also, we can pop them in (admittedly overpriced) Drop Pods which compensates for our extreme lack of teleport homers in the list. I have found though that the best are the Assault Terminators in a Land Raider Crusader, with an attached Chaplian. My favorite mixture is 3 TH/SS and 2 Twin Lightning Claws. usually the Chaplian is making up for the lost LC attacks. Plus Nob Bikers generally don't like Thunderhammers and the more attack there the better.

Corbulo is nice, but not necessary. I have found to find more success with a carefully placed Chaplain. The problem with him is two fold. Knowing where to place him and taking advantage of his range. I have found that a good Land Raider is the best to place him is as it really expands his effective range. What I have found though is that our best assault units (Assault Terminators, Death Company) either already has the Furious Charge or has access to higher strength attacks. Sure it would be nice to get Furious Charging LC Terminators, but is it worth 100 points on a character that doesn't have a power weapon? Your results may vary, and I have had good success with him, but taking him really dictates your list and basically removes 100 points for a limited ability, at at least an ability that keeps your army close enough to take advantage of him.

Mephiston is a nice character, but I haven't had that much luck with him. In a world with PK Nobz in successful delivery systems and 3++ Thunderhammer Terminators, his lack of an invulnerable save is a big disadvantage. I have found his use not as necessary as it would seem.

Dante is the only character I haven't tried yet, but he is essential in the all jumping list.

You biggest hurdle will be with Death Company, as in what to do with them. I have found that a large squad tends to work better. They are not as good as they where in fourth with rending toned down and feel no pain not what it used to be. I have come to rely on a Chaplian with a Powerfist to baby sit them. Even though Lemartes is a cheaper option, I have found that having a fist in that squad is essential for the utility.

So far my most successful lists have been Assault Terminators in a Land Raider and a unit of at least 8 Death Company with Jump packs, flavor with characters, tanks, and other assault marines as necessary.

I will go over your minature list:

HQ:
Termy Librarian with storm bolter - Nice model, doesn't really fit our list, we have two useless powers. Though if you are going to field a Libby, Terminator Armor is neccessary.
Captain - This is the BR Captian right? You may never field him as your collection grows
Captain with LC - Stick a Jump Pack on him and let him lead some assault Marines

Elites:
5 AOBR Terminators - Try and get ahold of a Cyclon Missle Launcher or a Heavy Flamer
AOBR Dreadnought - I have fielded him "as is" and have had pretty go success, if anything to tie up oncoming units, and the Melta is the best weapon for "standard" dreadnoughts. Unfortunately a Furioso is cheaper and better, so try and get another DCCW arm if you can and convert him.
5 Sternguard Vets - Call them VAS and stick them in a Drop Pod, best as a Melta delivery system. Since the DP is essentially free, it doesn't hurt as much as the 50 point one.

Troops:
Tactical Squad (Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino) - Good, you have done well, thought the Missle Launcher is unnecessary,and you will find yourself keeping them 10 men more then combat squading them. I have tried the BA gunline, not so good.
Tactical Squad (Flamer, Missile Launcher) - Buy a Rhino
Tactical Squad (Meltagun) - Buy a Rhino
Scout Squad (5 Sniper Rifles) - You won't find much use for these, though I have always been tempted by the shotgun armed ones as a flanking unit.

In closing, BA makes you be a little more aggressive then standard marines. The only thing that will keep you from going crazy everytime you see the toys "real marines" get is to play what makes the BA unique. Death Comapny, the characters we have, and where are list has slight advantages over the normal list is where we thrive.

That's a very informative post. Should I put PF's on my sergeants in my squads? Should I drop the missile launchers and put a meltagun on them? I might get 1-2 full squads of assault marines, and ill have to make some DC models when I can. I might get a Chaplain with PF, but i'm going to get Brother Corbulo as well. Dante will come much later as I fine tune my list. Do you have any suggestions for a 750 pt -1000pt list?

Mahu, thats a bloody good post


just as a slight add on with the scouts though:

they dont really have much use, they drain away an elite space, so your paying those points for a unit with less chance of surviving an assault / round of fire, they cannot be used as a scoring unit.

about the only plus side is thier weapons, but in the BA dex there are units that do much better jobs all round.



after playing BA i would never use vanilla marines again
BA is the ultimate assault army when it comes to marines.

Should I put PF's on my sergeants in my squads?

You should have at least a Power Weapon or Powerfist, either one works. I currently try and match the close combat weapon with my special weapon so I know what squads they would be the most useful against. I.E. I pair the Melta and the Powerfist, so if I have to go tank hunting with them and I miss with the Melta, I can try and follow up with a charge.

Remember, your biggest temptation is going to be aggressive with them. RESIST! They are your scoring units, and it is more important that they are alive at the end of the game and on an objective, then to have won any combat.

Should I drop the missile launchers and put a meltagun on them?

Heavy Weapons are not necessary and we don't get them for free. The only reason to take a heavy weapon is if you plan to combat squad the unit and add some fire support. You may want to try that and see how it works for you, but I can tell you that it is generally a bad idea. The leadership is low (comparatively), you are paying a premium for them (because of the cost of the unit), and you are going to have a hard time justifing the other 5 Marines. Not to mention getting boned every Dawn of War mission you play.

Having said that though, I have fielded a Corbulo list where I stuck him in a 5 Man Squad in a Razorback and had a Heavy Weapon squad. It worked fine, but it was lackluster and not really competitive.

I have tried Devestators and I own 2 10-men units. I don't ever see them outside of APOC now. We don't do gun lines well.

I might get 1-2 full squads of assault marines, and ill have to make some DC models when I can.

Don't worry about getting "official" Death Company Models. mine are Dark Angel robed model painted and converted with GS on the Pads. When players see Black Marines in a sea of Red, they know what they are.

I might get a Chaplain with PF, but i'm going to get Brother Corbulo as well. Dante will come much later as I fine tune my list.

Chaplains are essential to the list. I have every conceivable configuration in Chaplian models, but don't own a single Librarian.

I will get back to you on the example lists.

Another hell of a post Mahu. You're a great help. I'm pumped to see your example lists

Mahu makes a very good point about heavy weapons not being neccessary... In fact, I went as far as to issue each of my Tactical squad sergeants just regular bolters, because it is not their role to engage in assaults. I prefer to have that two extra shots on the move, giving the assault-specific squads some more support.

But if you think you might be facing armor, you may need the xtra oomph that the heavy weapons give. In fact, when I know I'll be facing orks (at every competition I have been to recently) I try to put in either a ML for the pie plate or a Heavy Bolter for the extra shots. Your tactical squads DO NOT want to mix it up with orks anyway, so standing off at a distance and trying to pick them apart generally is the best course of action.

I'm sure Mahu has some to add to this.

I really don't like Frag grenades though. They have a small blast and they really suck imo. I'd rather put a Heavy Bolter on a tactical squad rather then the ML if i were to face Orks.

I'm sure he does, Mahu's a wealth of information apparently

Oh, I almost forgot. Do you only get a DC soldier if you have one of each type it states, or can you have multiples. For example, if I were to field 2 Space Marine Squads, would I get 2 DC soldiers? Or can I only claim one?

If i remember correctly it states that for each selection you may take one DC marine, so you would get two,

for each unit taken of the types you get a free DC marine.
so 2 of the specific units (same type or different) would get you 2 free DC marines

Alright, just wanted to make sure.

I think the best way to go with BA is a mechanized list that has a couple of jump infantry units. Jump infantry uses the rhinos to hide until they are close enough to charge. As Mahu has pointed out tactical squads are the BA workhorse... They are much better at holding objectives than assault squads and you can take heavy weapons and assault weapons. I run two full tactical squads and one full assault squad all in rhinos. I just run a meltagun and power fist in my tactical squads but I can definitely see a place for cheap lascannons in these squads. The assault squad is my shock troop... I can afford to lose them but they force my opponents to react to them.

I also run a five man DC squad with Brother Corbulo in a rhino as well. I get all five DC Marines paid for by taking five other squads and only have to pay additional for their rhino. To be honest DC with jump packs are more powerful since they can cover more ground quickly and charge but because I run Corbulo the rhino approach is best for my style. The DC in a rhino is still a strong unit in assault and they can kill just about anything if you roll well for their rending attacks. I also use them as another shock troop but I hold them back until the latter stages of the game. A small squad does best when the enemy has been thinned down.

Our rhinos have OCE which is a huge advantage BA have over vanilla Marines. You should be able to get on top of objectives early in the game which puts the pressure on your opponent. It is very to dig out a squad of ten tactical Marines sitting on top of an objective when they are hiding behind their rhino. This is one of the main reasons why I run mine with meltaguns... It's very easy to roll up and execute a drive-by attack on enemy armor.

I very much recommend the Baal predator... It also has OCE and is basically a very cheap mobile Dev squad. Front AV13 is very resilient these days. I run two and set them up side by side... They will chew through anything in front of them. They are also great for contesting objectives late in the game since they have OCE. I think the Baal is the best tank in the game for the points.

I also run Dante with two 5 man VAS squads. Each VAS squad has two power fists and a meltagun. Remember than Dante also has a meltagun (perdition pistol). These units are great for shooting armor and excel in close combat... even moreso when escorting Dante. I have beaten job bikers on multiple occassions so I know from experience that my list is solid and I consider it a top tier army. It had mistakenly been referred to as a 4th edition army build but in fact it is a throwback to the old 3rd edition rhino rush with a small amount of jump infantry. Jump infantry is a lot more powerful now since assault is so deadly and you cannot charge out of a moving rhino.

Something important to understand when building a BA army is that most of our units are expensive and you need either a chaplain or Brother Corbulo to control the DC. You have to field DC since you are paying for them so you want to make sure that your overall build synergizes with the DC. The VAS is also one of our best units and with Dante closeby I feel they are more powerful than DC since they can take options. Dante and Corbulo is the most powerful since you get furious charge and preferred enemy plus Dante's death mask reduces enemies' WS by -1... So typically you are hitting on 3+ with a reroll... It just doesn't get any better than that and makes all those power fists even deadlier. This build is better than BT... You are hitting first on 3+ with the reroll.

G

So your list looks something like this?

HQ
-----
Dante (225)
Brother Corbulo (100)

Elites
---------
VAS (150)
VAS (150)
DC (Rhino) (40)

Troops
----------
10-Man Assault Squad (PF, Plasma Pistol, Rhino) (330)
Tactical Squad (Meltagun, PF, Rhino) (265)
Tactical Squad (Meltagun, PF, Rhino) (265)

Heavy Support
--------------------
Baal Predator (HB Sponsons) (125)
Baal Predator (HB Sponsons) (125)

1775 Pts total, which of course I'm guessing you have some variations on the list.


*Revised the list*

The assault squad has a power fist and a plasma pistol. Each VAS squad is only five Marines each so the running total is 1850.

G

Oh and both Baals have HB sponsons.

G

Oooh, alright. What a solid list. Out of curiosity, you don't find termies needed?


P.S. Was I right in saying that you put your Assault Squad in a Rhino?

P.S.S. Could you check the revised list? I feel like I'm leaving out points since you said its an 1850 pt list.

P.S.S.S. (Hopefully the last edit to this damn post) Could you go over some match-ups? I play against SoB, Eldar (NOT mechanized yet, but will soon), Tau, Nurgle CSM, Orks (Which is my 2nd army that I lend to others to play), and 'Nids. How will BA fair against those armies. Pro's/Con's to the BA list against those armies, and what I could expect / should-dos while playing would be much appreciated.

Thanks to all who have been helping me with BA. You're all such an informative bunch.

Termies usually get singled out quickly, so actually have a LOWER survival rate due to their small squad sizes. If played right, your DC should equate to a termy squad.

Yes my assault squad has a rhino. Termies don't work well in a BA army... Too slow unless you put them in a landraider which is a lot of points when you already have DC or could field VAS.

I match up well against most armies. Mech eldar and mech dark eldar you have to really put some thought into your movement. Dark lances pretty much bounce off of AV13 which hurts DE since the Baals absolutely eat them alive.

G

ive tried to get termies working in a BA army, but there are just much better choices you can take instead.

if your taking vet. assault squads they can be used for tank hunting.
throw them in a pod and give them 2 meltaguns, drop them near any armour, 2 of them have a great chance of killing most vehicles, however, against some armies its not really worth dropping that many points in the middle of an army to kill a basic vehicle.
things like land raiders are fair game due to thier cost and destructive capabilities.

I would rather have vets with jump packs because they are great in assaults. If you put them in a pod they will get shot up and they are too expensive to lose them like that.

G

i know GBF, but i would use them as a drop suicide unit if it ment taking out an enemy land raider in the process

I think the best way to go with BA is a mechanized list that has a couple of jump infantry units. Jump infantry uses the rhinos to hide until they are close enough to charge. As Mahu has pointed out tactical squads are the BA workhorse... They are much better at holding objectives than assault squads and you can take heavy weapons and assault weapons. I run two full tactical squads and one full assault squad all in rhinos. I just run a meltagun and power fist in my tactical squads but I can definitely see a place for cheap lascannons in these squads. The assault squad is my shock troop... I can afford to lose them but they force my opponents to react to them.

I agree.

I tend to run two full tactical squads in Rhinos and a full 10-man Assault Squad with Jump Packs. I usually pair the Assault Squad with a Large Jumping Death Company Squad for mutual support.

Unless you are really good with Rhinos, hiding Assault Marines are usually problematic, with true line of sight justifying targeting them more. I have found that you either have to support them with additional Jump Units or you hold them back and just use them to "retake" your home field objective late game.

I also run a five man DC squad with Brother Corbulo in a rhino as well. I get all five DC Marines paid for by taking five other squads and only have to pay additional for their rhino. To be honest DC with jump packs are more powerful since they can cover more ground quickly and charge but because I run Corbulo the rhino approach is best for my style. The DC in a rhino is still a strong unit in assault and they can kill just about anything if you roll well for their rending attacks. I also use them as another shock troop but I hold them back until the latter stages of the game. A small squad does best when the enemy has been thinned down.

I have found small units of Death Company to be lackluster, especially in the face of what you can tend to face on the table top. Death Company are usually either a small suicide unit, or a big game changer unit. But that is just me, I tend to not find rending all that great, your results may vary, but I find putting Death Company on "softer" target to be better and use units like Terminators with a lot of high str. attacks tackle the big stuff.

Our rhinos have OCE which is a huge advantage BA have over vanilla Marines. You should be able to get on top of objectives early in the game which puts the pressure on your opponent. It is very to dig out a squad of ten tactical Marines sitting on top of an objective when they are hiding behind their rhino. This is one of the main reasons why I run mine with meltaguns... It's very easy to roll up and execute a drive-by attack on enemy armor.

I agree but I have also found use in Flamers, but I play against a lot of Orks (and soon a lot of IG).

Anti-tank in my list usually comes in the form of Attack Bikes, Meltaguns, Land Raider Crusaders, Vindicators, and good old close combat.

Mahu wrote:

I think the best way to go with BA is a mechanized list that has a couple of jump infantry units. Jump infantry uses the rhinos to hide until they are close enough to charge. As Mahu has pointed out tactical squads are the BA workhorse... They are much better at holding objectives than assault squads and you can take heavy weapons and assault weapons. I run two full tactical squads and one full assault squad all in rhinos. I just run a meltagun and power fist in my tactical squads but I can definitely see a place for cheap lascannons in these squads. The assault squad is my shock troop... I can afford to lose them but they force my opponents to react to them.

I agree.

I tend to run two full tactical squads in Rhinos and a full 10-man Assault Squad with Jump Packs. I usually pair the Assault Squad with a Large Jumping Death Company Squad for mutual support.

Unless you are really good with Rhinos, hiding Assault Marines are usually problematic, with true line of sight justifying targeting them more. I have found that you either have to support them with additional Jump Units or you hold them back and just use them to "retake" your home field objective late game.

I also run a five man DC squad with Brother Corbulo in a rhino as well. I get all five DC Marines paid for by taking five other squads and only have to pay additional for their rhino. To be honest DC with jump packs are more powerful since they can cover more ground quickly and charge but because I run Corbulo the rhino approach is best for my style. The DC in a rhino is still a strong unit in assault and they can kill just about anything if you roll well for their rending attacks. I also use them as another shock troop but I hold them back until the latter stages of the game. A small squad does best when the enemy has been thinned down.

I have found small units of Death Company to be lackluster, especially in the face of what you can tend to face on the table top. Death Company are usually either a small suicide unit, or a big game changer unit. But that is just me, I tend to not find rending all that great, your results may vary, but I find putting Death Company on "softer" target to be better and use units like Terminators with a lot of high str. attacks tackle the big stuff.

Our rhinos have OCE which is a huge advantage BA have over vanilla Marines. You should be able to get on top of objectives early in the game which puts the pressure on your opponent. It is very to dig out a squad of ten tactical Marines sitting on top of an objective when they are hiding behind their rhino. This is one of the main reasons why I run mine with meltaguns... It's very easy to roll up and execute a drive-by attack on enemy armor.

I agree but I have also found use in Flamers, but I play against a lot of Orks (and soon a lot of IG).

Anti-tank in my list usually comes in the form of Attack Bikes, Meltaguns, Land Raider Crusaders, Vindicators, and good old close combat.

I was thinking of using terminators in my list, since you get a free DC soldier. The termies would be a much better option to use against the tougher melee unites such as my friends scorpions and would romp Plague marines in an assault. The DC I would have to worry about, plus rending is only so-so unless you roll a lot of 6's. Theres just so many options to consider in building my army that it's tough to decide what elites to play. I'm definitely taking 2 Tac Squads in Rhinos with the wargear in my list above. 2 Baal Pred's is also a definite. I'm definitely going to take Dante and Brother Corbulo because they're too good. I'm unsure as to what wargear I'm going to deck out my Termies with. 3 TH/SS and 2 Dual LC I'm thinking. I need to print out my codex, and sit down and read it.

JD21290 wrote:i know GBF, but i would use them as a drop suicide unit if it ment taking out an enemy land raider in the process

That is an un-necessary waste of a great unit... see what listening to Beetlejuice causes...

G

Termies don't work for BA. If you are going to take a unit because you get one free DC Marine this army is not for you.

G

Termies work for BA. If you build your list right.

BA is the ultimate assault army when it comes to marines.

I disagree. Templars got BA beat in the assault department...LOL. 10 Assault Terminators with FC, 5 LC's and 5 TH's lead by Grimaldus kills everything it touches.


Capt K

BA has all that plus -1 to your WS and furious charge.

G

I think that it is inappropriate to discuss black templar in this thread. This thread pertains only to Blood Angel tactics, not a contrast and comparison to other MEQs or races.

I agree that terminators CAN work in a BA list, but I use them sparingly. I would rather pay the 30 points for an extra DC marine than tie up another 200 for the same DC marine. I only take termies when I have the points available after everything else I want has already been picked.

True, I didn't exactly mean to only take termies instead of other things. That wasn't exactly what I meant. A terminator squad is the same as in the SM codex, so in a sense it's a free DC soldier. I would always choose them after all the other stuff I wanted, as FoxPhoenix already mentioned.