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I like Terminators as a support Assault unit that brings a lot of high strength attacks to the list which I believe to be essential in 5th Edition.

I disagree with GBF on two points:

1. Baal Predators are the win! - Baal Predators are good, don't get me wrong, and they are pretty much the only Predator varient you should consider on getting for your list, but they are not the only Heavy Support choice we have to be competitive. I tend to lean towards Vindicators as they have a higher strength, and tend to do about the same about of damage to Infantry units on the move as the Baal but with a better chance at taking out a tank. I also personally like the Vindicator, so that may inform why I put more emphasis on it. Now this is my own personal preference and I am not saying the Baal is a bad tank, I am just saying it is not our only choice.

2. The use of small squads - I generally dislike small squads for a few reasons. They are very fragile in assault, they tend to raise your kill point amount, and they tend to be not very effective, at least in my hands. I understand why he does it, he brings multiple squads to keep his DC "free", I disagree with this philosophy. I tend to look at the Death Company as a unit I want to take anyways, so I don't mind paying for them. And when it comes to it, the DC are never free, our units are more expensive to account for the Marine that we get. When I build lists for my BA, I tend to go in either two directions, either I add the DC last and just fit what I can in the points I have left, or I take the DC unit I want and slowly subtract the difference as I add other units in the list. Army Builder is actually quite good with this (it automatically subtracts the cost of a DC marine every time you add the appropriate unit to the list), and I tend to rely on it now when I build my lists as it lets me account for the DC easier.

For your reference, here is my current list, roughly, as I don't have the points cost on me:

-HQ-

Chaplain with Powerfist and Jump pack
Chaplain with Terminator Armor

-Elites-

Assault Terminators (3 TH/SS, 2 LC)
8 Death Company with Jump Packs

-Troops-

10-man Tactical Squad w/ Flamer, Powerweapon in Rhino
10-man Tactical Squad w/ Meltagun, Powerfist in Rhino
10-man Assault Squad w/ Powerweapon

-Fast Attack-

Attack Bike w/ Multimelta

-Heavy Support-

Land Raider Crusader
Vindicator w/ Dozerblade, Storm Bolter



Basically I send the Death Company, Assault Marines and Land Raider at the enemy. Sometimes I try and flank with the DC and Assault Marines and use the Land Raider and Vindicator as a stop gap measure for the enemies advance. The Tactical Squads either hang back or conservatively head towards the enemy. SInce 5th edition is more about being at the right place at the right time more then just straight killing, I tend to be a little more conservative. With the early game dedicate to getting into position and eliminating the greater threats and the late gem being about a push towards the objectives. So I tend to be more concerned with my manuvers then the amount of damage I can do.

There is nothing wrong with small powerful units. Use the wolf pack strategy to win with them.

I think the vindi is a great tank too but it will draw more fire plus you need two of them to make sure they perform well for what they can do. I prefer Baals for mass firepower and OCE.

G

So you only take 1 assault squad? They really attract that much fire?

They attract fire only if you don't give your opponent any other options.

In my list, I have a Land Raider filled with goodies, a Vindicator, and a large DC squad coming at you. Suddenly your opponent is not paying that much attention to the Assault Squad. Even if they do, I usually position the DC between enemy shooting and the assault squad. So your opponent either shoots the DC with their feel no pain or they shoot at the assault squad with a 4+ cover save, both are rather survivable in that concept.

My earlier argument was about fielding assault marines on their own. I support mine with Jumping Death Company, if I didn't I would take at least two Assault Squads.

I still want to eventually build the "jump death" army where every model is a jump infantry model supported by Dante, that would be fun.

Here are the considerations I usually take when building my list in 5th edition: how many kill points does it give up, are my scoring units fast enough and durable enough for objectives, and what would my opponent consider the greater threats.

I mean the Vindicator is nice, but one of the primary reasons I field it is the pure panic factor it brings to your opponent. Any early game shooting at the Vindicator is a good thing to me, because it leaves the rest of my list free to advance. The Land Raider is a big threat but it is durable enough to take it. Most of the time my Land Raider is barely scathed in games because opponents seem to be more afraid of the Vindicator. You have done something right if you are find your opponent more afraid of something that cost a third of your biggest units combinations.

So take that into consideration. Before every game think "if I was playing my opponents army, what would I be the most afraid of" and try to use that to your advantage.

Mahu wrote:

2. The use of small squads - I generally dislike small squads for a few reasons. They are very fragile in assault, they tend to raise your kill point amount, and they tend to be not very effective, at least in my hands. I understand why he does it, he brings multiple squads to keep his DC "free", I disagree with this philosophy.

I subscribe to that philosophy but for more than just keeping the DC "free." For whatever reason, there is a point efficiency built into the current BA list when you take small assault squads. If you buy two 5-man assault squads and put them in Rhinos you're getting about 310 points of stuff for 280 points. If you buy a 10-man assault squad and leave them with their packs you're breaking even at 250 points. Giving them a rhino has you overpaying by 10 points (effectively paid 50 for packs, got a rhino worth 40). The only real downside to taking the 2 small squads is the extra kill point. The upsides are 2 DC models, 2 veteran sergeants, 2 rhinos, and the ability to take upgrades on the two sergeants instead of just one.

I disagree. 2 small squads means that you have 2 squads that will be vunerable to morale checks after losing 3 models. You may say "but if you double that for a large squad, that is six, so it is the same, what's your point?"

Well my point is, with 2 small squads, an enemy can concentrate fire on a single squad and put it below the 50% mark a lot quicker, meaning you can possibly lose that unit to morale failure. With one large squad, it will take more firepower to put down 6 models in one turn and force a morale check. If they can put down that much firepower easily than you have bigger things to worry about than your squad size.

That's a valid point, but it strikes me as more relevant to the jump infantry configuration where the unit can be targeted on its way into melee. Even then it's a judgment call based on more factors than just how you configured your assault squad. What is the rest of your army? Do you have veterans, death company or honor guard on the board? If so why is your opponent targeting the assault squad? There is also a little bit of a fire break effect to consider when you have two squads. Fire directed at one won't affect the other. A 10 man squad could run after losing 3 models where it would take 4 to get both 5 man squads to test and the odds are that they won't both fail. I think it's complex enough that it doesn't lend itself to a hard and fast rule that says 1 10-man unit is always better than 2 5-man units.

Thanks to FoxPheonix for posting the link to Jawaballs blood angels blog. That is a great wealth of information complete with a lot of video battle reports.

I started reading this thread because I am building a blood angels army, and I am a total blood angels noob. All this info has been really helpful.

Have you thought about working up jump packs and back packs with magnets so that you can run your assault squads and DC both ways. Run them as infantry in Rhinos one game, and run them as jump infantry another game.

Options, man. Options . . .

If my input helped even one, then it was all worth it....

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:
Have you thought about working up jump packs and back packs with magnets so that you can run your assault squads and DC both ways. Run them as infantry in Rhinos one game, and run them as jump infantry another game.

Options, man. Options . . .

Yeah, I thought about that, but then I didn't do it. It's certainly the cheaper way to go. I just built models both ways. So I have 8 DC models with jump packs and 6 without, but I have more waiting to be built. I've done with same with my assault marines.

I have magnetized my JPs on my assault troopers. I haven't magnetized the normal backpacks yet because I havent had a game where I actually wanted them in a rhino instead of jumping along on their own.

Magnetizing the packs is a good idea. I want the option of choosing packs or rhino transport during games.

Yeah I agree, that sounds like an awesome idea... I wish I had done that but getting the extra jump packs used to be a huge hassle. Now GW offers them direct from their bits, for 8 bucks per 5 packs. Pretty good deal, considering ebay used to auction them for like 15 bucks just for the packs.

I am also thinking of going BA (they loook way cooler than the other chapters ) Can someone post a competitive 1500pnt list?

See some of the earlier posts: there are differing opinions of competitive lists. Also see Jawaballs list at http://warhammer40kbloodangels.blogspot.com/

I won my first BA battle against my friends SoB. It was a pretty intense game and my MVP was my tactical squad which killed a cannoness and her retinue, an exorcist, an immolator, and one of the assassins. The game was tight, but my Tactical Squad, Terminator Squad, and DC ripped through almost everything once I got into range. The only problems I've been facing is the lack of dreadnought use. I use it but I must play it too stupidly because it always gets immobilized fairly early leaving it useless. Any tips on using a dreadnought with a Multi-Melta effectively?

With the new edition, it makes it so that a vehicle can hide. Vehicles benefit from cover, but unfortunately it still takes quite a bit to cover at least half of it from view, so that is dependent on your terrain.

Also, you can run with a dreadnought like you do infantry. That might help get you into melta range faster.

Being venerable can have its advantages, but its downsides too. Usually you only want to re-roll vehicle damage results if you roll an DESTROYED result. It gives you approximately a 66% chance of avoiding that result (Unless there is a modifier involved). If you reroll for anything less, it just gives your dred a 33% chance of dying, so its not a good idea.

I generally leave out the dread and take more tactical marines, but if you take him, either hide him or run him to get him in range. That's the best advice I can offer.

Edit: I am such a jerk that I forgot to congratulate you on your victory! That's awesome!

I forgot the dread could run :( The game was a blast, I still can't believe how much my 1 tactical squad did.

Thanks on the congratulations FoxPhoenix.

I run my DC behind 2 DC dreads or a LR it works out well for me. Lemarties helps controll the 2 dreads and the DC thus the dreads tarpit for me. It works out real well because I mainly play Orks and Tryanids. I also run 1 ten man tac squad an honor guard, dc and then assult squad. I Don't have terminators in my BA army list. I find the DC dread works out better. Hope my opinions help.

So what was your total army list? I know you get most of your models from AoBR but what else have you added aside from the DC?

my 1000 list was as follows:

HQ
-----
Brother Corbulo

Elites
--------
3 DC
Dreadnought (Multi-Melta)
Terminator Squad (3 Chainfists)

Troops
----------
Tactical Squad (PF, Meltagun, Flamer, Rhino)
Tactical Squad (PF, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino)


It ran REALLY well. As I said earlier, my one tactical squad killed a cannoness and her retinue, immolator, exorcist, and a callidus assassin.

Sounds solid. Don't have the codex with me right now but do you have the points for a furioso dread? I find them quite useful.

P.S. Love the love that the BA are getting. First and still favorite army to play.

Yeah, BA are wild.

They are a lot of fun for sure.

G

Congratulations on the win, S1gns.

I envy you . . .
I have been painting away trying to get my Blood Angels ready to hit the table.

Same here. My wife and I have been meaning to play a game for the last 2 weeks, but I keep putting it off because I want to have more painted.

To be honest I have yet to paint my army. I just haven't had the time required to sit down and paint a mini nicely, so I chose not to start it and half-ass it. Hopefully during spring break I'll have time since my girlfriend is going away with her family.

I need to repaint most of my BA army. Since it was my first army and is still very small I plan on doing so over time. Greatest thing ever was in a 1500 points game my friend shot his entire eldar army at my DC and one still survived as well as Lemartes. They charge some guardians and then were thus killed off during the next shooting phase.

Congratulations on the win!

Just a quick FYI, if you get the Assault Terminators boxed set, that will give you enough arms to turn both of your Terminator units into assault terminators. All you have to worry about is shoulder pads, but some careful conversions can fix that.

I was practically unemployed when my started my Blood Angels, so you can get some tips from me on how to build BA on a budget.

It'll be enough for 10 assault terminators? I already have 5 from the AOBR box and an assault terminator box will give me 5 guys and extra arms?