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JohnHwangDD wrote:#1 thing I don't miss???

Squats.

Ditto! I most of the people posting about the squats don't know squat about them. I completely sympathize with any army or unit that get removed, that sucks, but the squats themselves were not all that.

BigToof wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:#1 thing I don't miss???

Squats.

Ditto! I most of the people posting about the squats don't know squat about them. I completely sympathize with any army or unit that get removed, that sucks, but the squats themselves were not all that.

The "hilarious" thing is that I've seen people say, in all seriousness, that Tau should go the way of the squats... and Tau have been far, far better supported, both by the fanbase and by GW than squats ever were. I've seen more Dark Eldar players than I ever saw Squat players, and that's really saying something The squats just didn't really have a unique niche in the fluff or the metagame... although it would have been nice if they had.

Exactly.

And I completely agree that Tau >> DE >> Squats.

Of course, if GW ever goes back from grimdark to joke armies, I fully expect to see Squats will be at the top of the list.

Oh I see John is baiting the Dark Eldar players again. What a fething surprise.

Augustus wrote:Well, I posit thats because you and Centurion didn't know how to play it (and still don't). Overwatch was combined with FIRING ARCS, so a unit could only watch 90 degrees of board. The scenario:

And? 90 degree fire-arcs get mighty big when you've deployed back in your DZ and have overlapping firelanes. You assume we forgot about the fact that we had to cover various angles of approach?

No. Overwatch was stupid, broken, and attempted to do something it couldn't do in the first place - add simultaneous actions to a UGOIGO system. It didn't work. It doesn't work.

Perhaps I overlooked it, but I see no mention of virus grenade weilding assassins jumping out of the middle of an Ork mob or IG force, throwing the grenade and wiping out 90% of the luckless army on the first turn. I can't number how many times I saw that happen. This went down really well if the guy running the assassin also had the virus outbreak card.
When I saw a Jervis Johnson/Andy Chambers battle report where a virus grenade was used on the Orks and the thing only killed six I realized that battle reports in WD are definitely suspect in their accuracy.

On the matter of assassins, who can ever forget the joys of realizing that one of your terminators was going to be replaced by your opponents assassin model that would then rampage through your army?

Something else I remember seeing a lot of were entire units of Space Wolf terminators with Cyclones and assault cannons on the same models because of bad wording in their codex.

Virus Bomb strategy cards.

willydstyle wrote:Things you DON'T miss about 2nd edition 40k

The entirety of 2nd edition.

Seriously, I think imperial guard taking eldar titans was just dumb It is still dumb. Yay apocalypse), but not nearly as dumb as overwatch was.

Swooping hawk exarch of doom wielding vortex grenades were also the major stupid.

Too many to really name, so I will just say that I am very glad 2nd ed is dead and buried. May Jervis burn in hell for that.

willydstyle wrote:People complain about Kill Points... but I guess they don't remember the lists with a bunch of 49 point units that were worth 0 VPs.

Hooray for the 6 victory point 2000 point lists!!

The alternative were the precursor to the Deathstar Lists. VP tables capped at 4 so what do you do? As many Khornate Termies as you can buy in a single squad. Also worked with termie wolf guard, especially before the assault cannon/cyclone nix.....

Centurian99 wrote:Don't forget everyone's favorite game:

Turn 1:
Player 1 - "I put everything on overwatch."
Player 2 - "I put everything on overwatch."

Turn 2:
Player 1 - "I put everything on overwatch."
Player 2 - "I put everything on overwatch."

Turn 3:
Player 1 - "I put everything on overwatch."
Player 2 - "I put everything on overwatch."

...<snipped>
Turn 18432423:
Player 1 - "I put everything on overwatch."
Player 2 - "Oh screw it." Moves out, loses entire army to overwatch fire from player 1.

HAHAHA. I would have paid money for someone to put his entire army on overwatch there is no way you would be able to make a large enough dent in my screen of ablative gretchin before being involved in a messy combat while being picked off by my heavy guns or squished by his own tanks when my battery of pulsa rokkits makes them drive over your prostrate forums. I miss 2nd edition so much.

I hated HATED HATED virus outbreak. Then came the medicine Squig wargear card and I loved it against Guard and Eldar.

I'll add these to the chorus:

- Resolving close combat
- Virus grenades
- Superhero characters
- Everything on overwatch showdown
- Datafaxes
- Psychic phase
- Ineffeciveness of power armour
- Overeffectiveness of thrown frag or krak grenades relative to boltguns

Was second edition broken? Absolutly, but I was undefeated as Chaos, so i can't realy complain. I was heart broken when 3rd edition came out, as it made my army almost completely useless. It was such a departure from 2nd edition that many peoples army had to be re-done, not just adapted. I believe that 4th and 5th were amazing fixes to the differently (also broken) 3rd by only tweeking the rules where they needed it, not totally re-doing it.

Anyway, here's my list of broken things (as i can remember) from 2nd edition;

-Virus grenades/outbreak
-vortex grenade
-assassins
-this wonderfully horrible combination of (ork) -gyro-stabilized mono-wheel + combat drugs (i think it gave you a 32'charge)
-all characters models (honestly, everyone super tooled them up with wargear into 1 man army killing machines
-all grenades, especially rad and blight (which were persistent)

that's all i can think of

in regards to overwatch, there were to hit modigiers for it: -1 emerging from cover, -1 going into cover. this meant that when you were shooting while on overwatch, you could barly hit anything. Whatever you may think is broken about 2nd edition overwatch is no more broken than everthing gives 4+ cover saves in 5th edition. By 5th edition logic, all Eldar, IG, Orks, and Tyranids should just wear armout made out of tall grass and wood, cause that's all it takes to stop ANYTHING (but a flamer) 50% of the time.

The Tyranid random "screw you we don't get Strategy Cards" rolls.

"Oh, look half your army is infected or off-table! What? No you cannot watch my rolls...hurrhurr"

My group never used Virus anything, it either killed your whole army(Eldar Guard, Orks without Medi-squig), or didn't do gak(Marines).

I just hated that there was very little rules support and half our rules were house rules. Plus the fact that there was a pretty good list of things that needed to be banned to have a decent game.

The Psychic phase was a poker game that broke out i nthe middle of your turn.

Ah, Bloodthirsters were awesome back then though....

Wow. I never thought I would live to see the day someone almost defending overwatch.

For all the people who say "oh man, you can't throw grenades any more!!!"

What are grenades used for? For clearing rooms... for lobbing into trenches and other fortified positions to try to neutralize the enemy who are entrenched in them... hey... that's pretty much how they work in 40k now isn't it?

the uber long games

J.Black wrote:Blind grenades. iirc they were about 2pts per model and had the effect of reducing any tyranid/genestealer army to a cc only imperial guard equivalent. I can remember guardians taking out hive tyrants for god's sake!

You left out the best part... at the beginning of your turn rolling for deviation of all the blind clouds. Those things would never go away. I remember by the middle of the game there would be about 20 on the table and you would spend the first 10 minutes of each turn rolling for each one.

There was also my personal favorite, the plasma missile which on a 6 each turn would expand by D6 inches, engulfing half of an army.

willydstyle wrote:What are grenades used for? For clearing rooms... for lobbing into trenches and other fortified positions to try to neutralize the enemy who are entrenched in them... hey... that's pretty much how they work in 40k now isn't it?

Grenades are also used for killing things, something they don't do in 40K now. Grenades are non-lethal.

Guard armies switching to Grenades once the range had been closed, seeing as it was going to do a whole load more damage.

10 per squad, half would, half would scatter. Rinse and repeat. So time consuming. Fun, but time consuming.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

willydstyle wrote:What are grenades used for? For clearing rooms... for lobbing into trenches and other fortified positions to try to neutralize the enemy who are entrenched in them... hey... that's pretty much how they work in 40k now isn't it?

Grenades are also used for killing things, something they don't do in 40K now. Grenades are non-lethal.

Seeing as how 40k is an extremely abstract system... you can assume that any casualties they cause are taken care of in combat results.

Don't krak grenades kill vehicles?

"Grand Warlord", as he was called, Adian Wood having yet another army recieve a major butt whipping in a WD 2nd ed battle report.

I actually liked Overwatch, although maybe that was because i never saw anyone abuse it. I also miss the 2d6 armor save for Terminators...although i always did seem to roll double 1s.

What I hated, and made me quit until 3rd edition, was the stupidly insanely powerful characters with multiple saves. More specifically the Chaos Lords. Just to be a , my opponent took his Lord through my entire Space Wolf army. I was able to shoot at him (with Overwatch ) with over half my army. I hit and and scored a wounding roll with at least 3/4 of what i shot at him...and not one was able to get through all his saves!

This is great.

I miss fumbles in CC, hilarious.

Modified to hit rolls. Armour hardly ever working because of modifiers.

Also, while we are doing anecdotes, my mate used to take a harlequin lord with combat drugs which meant he could charge 24 inches! I can laugh about i now...

harlequins looting land raiders.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:The Tyranid random "screw you we don't get Strategy Cards" rolls.

"Oh, look half your army is infected or off-table! What? No you cannot watch my rolls...hurrhurr"

This is slightly off topic...didn't the Tyranids have a rule called something like "Bob, are you ok?" It was something like X amount of people in each until may be infected by a Tyranid and removed from play before the game begins?

Korcheski wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote: "Bob, are you ok?"

"Jones is acting strangely"- random dude wanders of and spawns a barbed strangler template....

troy_tempest wrote:This is great.

I miss fumbles in CC, hilarious.

Modified to hit rolls. Armour hardly ever working because of modifiers.

Also, while we are doing anecdotes, my mate used to take a harlequin lord with combat drugs which meant he could charge 24 inches! I can laugh about i now...

And yet, hit and armor mods are some of the things that the 2nd ed lovers lament the loss of the most...

The AP system is incredibly simplistic and in a lot of ways a bad way to represent damage because it is so either/or (ie. it's binary - you get a save or you don't). And it is too limiting - my fist, your knife, his chainsword, and that guy's Heavy Bolter all have the same chance of getting through a Marine's armour.

But compared to 2nd Ed, where things often just didn't get their save as virtually everything had a save mod... I don't miss that. I still remember my first game of 3rd Ed where I was shocked at Marines getting their full 3+ save against weaons fire. I honestly thought that was quite cool, as I had been used to taking 4+ (or worse) saves for Marines for years!

H.B.M.C. wrote:The AP system is incredibly simplistic and in a lot of ways a bad way to represent damage because it is so either/or (ie. it's binary - you get a save or you don't). And it is too limiting - my fist, your knife, his chainsword, and that guy's Heavy Bolter all have the same chance of getting through a Marine's armour.

But compared to 2nd Ed, where things often just didn't get their save as virtually everything had a save mod... I don't miss that. I still remember my first game of 3rd Ed where I was shocked at Marines getting their full 3+ save against weaons fire. I honestly thought that was quite cool, as I had been used to taking 4+ (or worse) saves for Marines for years!

Much like a .22 a .45 and a 9mm pistol all have about the same chance of getting through a kevlar vest: none. However, once a rifle-velocity round hits that armor it might as well not be there. Anyways, I think that 40k is a very abstract system, so what's "realistic" should not take precedent over game play, but I also think that the AP system is a much better game-play decision than the save modifier system. As you mentioned, marines actually getting their full save against most small (and lots of heavy!) arms fire feels more "right" to me, and more balanced.