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So what was the deal with FFG dropping it?

I'm not sure, but perhaps Rackham becoming Rackham Entertainment had some effect on the contracts and RE wanted to start over?

Saint Anuman wrote:Awesome response BTW pompe,
The current problem of low cost items and the perception by gamers that things are bad is due to a fallen out of Fantasy Flight games and Rackham the company is strong and working hard on many fronts some researce at the rackham site and forum can get you the details. Everyone is aware of the damage FFG did to the hobby(retailers and gamers alike) and is trying to point folks in the right direction things like the recent campaign box set "Operation frostbite" and the new army box deals and a steady flow of new models is one way rackham is moving forward but I must admite if your not looking for these steps forward you might not notice them. This summer looks like a exciting time for us AT-43 fans in both new toys and new folks jumping in the game.

I'm glad you're into AT-43 and I hope it all works out for you and for anyone else who likes the game.

But, while FFG probably did Rackham no favors, I think that it was Rackham itself that did the most 'damage' to the 'Rackham hobby' (retailers and gamers alike).

FFG dropped it to focus on their own PPP games(including becoming the US distributors/producers for DUST).

I loved the game so much(I own all 4 armies and plan on getting both Cogs and ONI and will be working the Rackham booth at Gencon), I became a Sentinel. Both of the game stores I've been to here in Colorado Springs so far are eager for me to start demos and organized play. There's plenty of interest, luckily.

AT-43 has pretty much become my sci-fi minis game of choices at the moment. I still like 40K, but let's face it: GW is more about the models and the "hobby" now than it is about the game. Codex Creep, utter lack of attention to armies for years on end, and it's always had wonky, special rules-oriented rules in general...Kill Points...it's not a bad game per se, but the shining aspects of 40K are the hobby aspects, the building and painting things.

AT-43 is a game first and foremost. It shows in the design - considering AT-43 is only in its first edition, the ruleset is surprisingly solid. Not perfect, and sometimes the translations can get "interesting." It's a very different game than 40K, so in my mind the two complement each other very nicely.

Money is a reasonable issue as none of these games are cheap...but almost every AT-43 unit is currently 66% off at The War Store or Miniature Market. You can get a 2,000-point army, which is the equivalent of a 1,500-point 40K army, for maybe $100 right now. That's pretty insane, if you think about it.

It's a complete anomaly, however, and doesn't speak at all to the health of Rackham Entertainment. It's just the result of FFG getting rid of its stock, which is to be expected once they ceased to be the U.S. distributor. When Rackham reorganized into Rackham Entertainment, they made some different decisions about distribution I guess, hence the change-up.

I don't see RE's balance books so I cannot speak to the health of the company per se, but they're releasing models back on the previous schedule, and these army box deals are probably loss leaders intended to reinvigorate the game.

From a business point of view, you don't roll out loss leaders with all new boxes, and brand new rulebook prints, if you're planning on selling off the company assets. These army boxes are an investment in the future...so you can read into that what you will.

You can also read into the fact that the Cogs are entirely new...chances are the molds for these models weren't even around yet back in October when the company re-organized, and RE is also moving ahead with plans for the sixth AT-43 a rmy, ONI. Some of the ONI product SKUs are already being listed at Alliance Games I think...

I never played Confrontation myself as I'm only a sci-fi/historical wargamer, so I can't speak to all that drama...but any objective assessment of RE right now speaks to a company which has rallied and which plans to support AT-43 for quite a while.

If you've never played AT-43, give it a try. It's very fast and extremely brutal - but it also focuses on objective-based play and the "I move a unit, you move a unit" gameplay leads to immersive games as well.

Personally, I like that a 3,000-point game can take less than an hour once you know the rules...so if I have a bad game, I can quickly setup and play another one and try to put into practice whatever lesson I probably just learned.

A friend and I recently played five 2,000-point games in about 4 hours. That would normally not even be enough time for two 40K games...

Cairnius wrote:chances are the molds for these models weren't even around yet back in October when the company re-organized

The molds were, in fact, around before the re-organization. The winner of the GenCon '08 tournament got to take home a Cog Prototype. Note, NOT a sculpt, but one of the prototype casts that are normally hand painted and used for the pictures you see in the books and Cry Havoc Online.

*All* the molds?

I'd still argue that putting the Cogs into full production is a sure-fire sign of health in a company...

Cairnius wrote:*All* the molds?

Not sure, they don't tell us everything.

malfred wrote:

Saint Anuman wrote:Do any of you play the game and besides just buying a few figures is anyone truly invested in the game who is posting with a slight negative vibe?

I have over 3000 points for each army (all four with more to come) I play when ever I can and take part in a once a month game night with others who play AT-43. Ive also organized tournaments and enjoy taking part in the regional At-43 gaming community.
Until your truly invested in the game with BOTH time and money you shoud try less negativity and try the game and its group of players out for a test drive.

You sound like me with Warmachine

I don't know who on this forum are heavily involved with AT-43. I know that syr has
some stuff and Hellfury repaints and touches up his stuff. Of course there's Duncan Idaho,
but that ghola always has his own reasons.

You could always start a poll in General Discussions.

I am involved I have 2 almost complete armies (Therians and REd Blok) play 1 a month... more if time-wife-job allows...

i repaint my therians...looking forward to do the same with RB

So no,we are not alone

The few games I've had of AT-43 showed it to be a great game – very dynamic, exciting and much more involved than 40k owing to the alternating unit sequence (rather than 'I go, you go'). What's stopped my gaming group getting more into the game is:
1) The pre-painted nature of the game. My group is primarily hobbyists. While the paint itself isn't a problem (indeed, it removes the need to prime); the fact the models come pre-assembled is. They're a pig to convert, owing to the softer plastic.
2) Expense. In contrast to the US (where there seems to be a near-permanent sale!), the UK has the most expensive AT-43 miniatures, owing to the strength of the Euro versus Sterling. The $100 cost for a 2000pt army quoted earlier is around £165 ($243) RRP, assuming an army a little like this: 3 x Fire Toads; 1 x Defender Snake; 2 x boxes of Steel Troopers; 2 x Steel Troopers attachments.

That's a fairly conservative army. Taking into account special deals on webstores, you could get it for around £130 or so, but it's still more than twice the US price.

Apologist wrote:The few games I've had of AT-43 showed it to be a great game – very dynamic, exciting and much more involved than 40k owing to the alternating unit sequence (rather than 'I go, you go'). What's stopped my gaming group getting more into the game is:
1) The pre-painted nature of the game. My group is primarily hobbyists. While the paint itself isn't a problem (indeed, it removes the need to prime); the fact the models come pre-assembled is. They're a pig to convert, owing to the softer plastic.
2) Expense. In contrast to the US (where there seems to be a near-permanent sale!), the UK has the most expensive AT-43 miniatures, owing to the strength of the Euro versus Sterling. The $100 cost for a 2000pt army quoted earlier is around £165 ($243) RRP, assuming an army a little like this: 3 x Fire Toads; 1 x Defender Snake; 2 x boxes of Steel Troopers; 2 x Steel Troopers attachments.

That's a fairly conservative army. Taking into account special deals on webstores, you could get it for around £130 or so, but it's still more than twice the US price.

I dont try to being rude, but this "hobby" theory is just lame, The VERY FIRT batch (operation damocles) was soft plastic; all of the ret are as similar as GW , I have converted my therians without ANY problem; yes you may not have all the bitz that you may have in GW packs... but if you are in the "hobby" that shouldnt be a problem really... Yes it may take a differnt approach as they are already pre-assembled and pre-painted, but it is just a mmatter of doing thimngs in a different way... anyway you have to clean GW minis anyway and pinning and so on.

The price in UK...? well you are right, stil for that money you can rder a full 2000 pts from US and get more minies, and still considering you dont HAVE to paint them just play staright and the pre-paints are far much better than most of the armies of GW that I have seen...

Just wanted to respond to that and clear up any misunderstandings – certainly didn't mean to be abrasive!

I dont try to being rude, but this "hobby" theory is just lame, The VERY FIRT batch (operation damocles) was soft plastic; all of the ret are as similar as GW , I have converted my therians without ANY problem;

Hmm – all of the AT-43 infantry models I've seen have been a much more pliable plastic than GW. Perhaps I've just been unlucky.

yes you may not have all the bitz that you may have in GW packs... but if you are in the "hobby" that shouldnt be a problem really... Yes it may take a differnt approach as they are already pre-assembled and pre-painted, but it is just a mmatter of doing thimngs in a different way... anyway you have to clean GW minis anyway and pinning and so on.

Don't get me wrong – I don't really mind the soft plastic. I've used the bits for various conversions:



But the point remains that I would prefer to have the models provided unpainted, in pieces, on a sprue – even if that meant paying a little more.

My group has been pretty much polarised by the prepainted nature of the game: some love it, some hate it. As a result, the ones that love it don't buy in because the ones that hate it won't, and then the available pool of gamers is smaller.

I don't pretend that my group's a microcosm of the wider gaming world – it's merely an anecdote.

The price in UK...? well you are right, stil for that money you can rder a full 2000 pts from US and get more minies

I looked into this, and unfortunately the shipping knocks it back up to around £140 owing to UK import tax. Sad, but there you go.

still considering you dont HAVE to paint them just play staright and the pre-paints are far much better than most of the armies of GW that I have seen...

Absolutely true, but I'm much more concerned with painting and modelling than I am with playing games. Rackham's approach is entirely viable – just not one that appeals to me personally.

However, to bring this back on topic, the new army boxes seem fantastic – and if the savings translate to the UK, I'm sure that AT-43 will enjoy an upsurge in popularity. The rules are fantastic, the models are good, and the pre-painted nature will make it appeal to a slightly different market than traditional modellers.

Thier was talk from "R" on thier forum of "hobby Kits" being released, unpainted still on the spru kits... Can any AT 43 Fan reading this ad a link or mention any other news they might have about these "hobby kits"???.

I love Rackham. Er, make that loved.

Confrontation was the perfect game IMHO. Beautiful minis appealed to me as a painter, but also the small army size meant that it was easy to own several armies. The rules also had enough complexity to keep the 'hardened' gamers happy.

A new rule set was put out which expanded from skirmish to full armies. The rules were a bit clunky and poorly received. Shortly afterwards, the metal minis that were arguably the most creative gaming pieces on the market were essentially discontinued in favour of somewhat bland pre-painted plastics. Hobbyists were screwed, and gamers were screwed.

So yeah, there's some bitterness over Rackham, and the caution is warranted in my opinion. I bought a Red Blok army and repainted some of it in the hopes of getting people into the new game. But after being burned once by R, it's extremely hard to convince the local gamers to send more money their way. I'd love to see AT-43 thrive, but R compounded their problems by not giving out much information in the last 18 months about their future.

Saint Anuman wrote:Thier was talk from "R" on thier forum of "hobby Kits" being released, unpainted still on the spru kits... Can any AT 43 Fan reading this ad a link or mention any other news they might have about these "hobby kits"???.

Nope. I've been checking frequently, and this is dead. Fire Industries started resin versions of Therians which were available unpainted (at a much higher proposed cost) but of course they closed Fire Industries. It was the final nail in the coffin for me.

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2007/11/15/11000

Rackham Legends is creating some new stuff in resin. Not rank n' file, but collector's pieces:

http://www.confrontation.fr/images/CHO/CHONEW/UK/RACKLEGUK.html

Mastiff wrote:

Saint Anuman wrote:Thier was talk from "R" on thier forum of "hobby Kits" being released, unpainted still on the spru kits... Can any AT 43 Fan reading this ad a link or mention any other news they might have about these "hobby kits"???.

Nope. I've been checking frequently, and this is dead. Fire Industries started resin versions of Therians which were available unpainted (at a much higher proposed cost) but of course they closed Fire Industries. It was the final nail in the coffin for me.

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2007/11/15/11000

Rackham Legends is creating some new stuff in resin. Not rank n' file, but collector's pieces:

http://www.confrontation.fr/images/CHO/CHONEW/UK/RACKLEGUK.html

Mastiff, he means the unpainted PLASTIC vehicle model kits that Rackham was planning on doing this year(as mentioned in the press release when they restructured into Rackham Entertainment), not the Resin Legends line. Unfortunately, these were postponed indefinitely.

The whole company seems mismanaged really, and I don't want to get stuck with more useless minis after my foray into Starship Troopers.

I mean, it took them this long to realize how to do into army boxes? Damocles sucked as an intro too.

About the only thing I'm interested in was Dogs of War and it looks like all support for confrontation 3.5 and DoW is being dropped.

So color me disinterested when they make a few resin miniatures that likely will be unsupported.

Considering the AT-43 are multi poseable at the 2 arms and torso , i see little to no reason for it to be in multi piece kit like GW's. You get to pose them when you want, as often as you want. Not like GW's glued pieces. As in the weaponry, just buy the set up you want.

Multi...poseable? Oh you mean before they glue them together
at the factory. I broke the arm off my first Karman trying to
pose the arms.

malfred wrote:Multi...poseable? Oh you mean before they glue them together
at the factory. I broke the arm off my first Karman trying to
pose the arms.

Im not sure what types of karmans you have ( the ones i have are the rail gun ones ) i use as kroot ox.

The rest of the humanoids una and red blok the arms can be posed ( unless its holding missle launcher or gun that requires 2 hands )
but i did run into ONE odd one where the arms are glued (maybe the person forgot to leave it ?)

Yummy substitutes for IG artillary

Mastiff, he means the unpainted PLASTIC vehicle model kits that Rackham was planning on doing this year(as mentioned in the press release when they restructured into Rackham Entertainment), not the Resin Legends line. Unfortunately, these were postponed indefinitely.

Yep, I understood what he was asking about, sorry if I wasn't clear in my response. They had originally proposed unpainted plastic versions of their entire range, but scrapped that idea shortly after the first releases a year and a half ago. Then R proposed resin releases of the existing PPP range. That got dropped too. Then came word Fire Industries, a subsidiary of Rackham, would create new sculpts of the existing range in resin to appeal to collectors and painters. FI died a sudden and ignomious death a year ago. Rackham Legends has recently been proposing specialty minis in resin, but not copies of the existing AT-43 range.

Better?

Mastiff wrote:

Mastiff, he means the unpainted PLASTIC vehicle model kits that Rackham was planning on doing this year(as mentioned in the press release when they restructured into Rackham Entertainment), not the Resin Legends line. Unfortunately, these were postponed indefinitely.

Yep, I understood what he was asking about, sorry if I wasn't clear in my response. They had originally proposed unpainted plastics, scrapped that idea shortly after the first releases a year and a half ago, then proposed resin releases of the existing PPP range. That got dropped too, then they came word fire Industries, a subsidiary of Rackham, would create new sculpts of the existing range in resin to appeal to collectors and paintes. FI died a sudden and ignomious death a year ago. Rackham Legends has recently been proposing specialty minis in resin, but not copies of the existing AT-43 range.

Better?

Perhaps, but the Announcement of plastic also came again AFTER FI left Rackham to do other projects(the same time as the announcement of reformation , Rush n' Crush and the novels). FI didn't "die a sudden and ignomious death", they simply decided that it would be better to do their own thing than be tied down to Rackham for all eternity and renamed themselves Grey Matter Figures. It's the same company, different name.

Perhaps, but the Announcement of plastic also came again AFTER FI left Rackham to do other projects. FI didn't "die a sudden and ignomious death", they simply decided that it would be better to do their own thing than be tied down to Rackham for all eternity and renamed themselves Grey Matter Figures. It's the same company, different name.

That's an odd way of looking at it. They changed their name, have a completely new product line and are longer licensed to produce anything for Rackham. There is zero chance they will produce anything for AT-43. For the purposes of our discussion, how is that not dead?

Actually they have quite some of their designes reused for their new company, just without the copyrighted Rackham names/minis .

A new rule set was put out which expanded from skirmish to full armies. The rules were a bit clunky and poorly received. Shortly afterwards, the metal minis that were arguably the most creative gaming pieces on the market were essentially discontinued in favour of somewhat bland pre-painted plastics. Hobbyists were screwed, and gamers were screwed.

The metals were discontinued because stock was full and some oft it still lasts until today. It does not help you if only the art guys buy your stuff and the rest is frightened to even touch it with a drop of paint. Rackham hit the brakes before the company hit the wall (Warmachine is in the same modus right now). You can expand a skirmish system only that much before it goes down under its own wight. Rules became too complicated and Small skirmish armies sold not enough, even with people have 2-3 armies. Rackham is the only company that lasted close to 10 years before having to switch, others (like PP) had to change much earlier or are goners.

Some of it happned that fast that even the folks were surprised by some of the momentum. It could have been managed better, but looking back at how GW managed their transition in the late 80's they did not that bad and at least Rackham is mainly owned by the people who care for the game and the purse instead just for the latter.

Financially Rackham is now in a position were they can branch out and introduce loss leaders without having to fear for the company.

@FFG
We had the same problem here with UC. Both companies wanted to much with to small an investment and had no experience with TTs before. FFG had to kill off al its TTs. FFG and UC lost quite some money, but quite some of it was due to their own fault and mismanagement of the product. Low prices of their fire sales in the end were a good thing, it boosted the player base considerably.

I mean, it took them this long to realize how to do into army boxes? Damocles sucked as an intro too.

Yeah, and GW introduced army boxes after a little bit more than two years after the whole line hit the market, while having 6 full armies ready, sure.

I would just like to point out that people in this thread have bashed on Rackham for screwing over their players, being poorly managed, and producing inferior products.

Please, let us compare Rackham, then, to GW. Or, if you'd rather, Games "Let's Piss Off Our Players" Workshop, which produces a nauseatingly buggy ruleset, is horribly biased towards certain armies while leaving others to languish for YEARS, can't seem to come out with a FAQ for anything in a timespan measured in a scale less than "months", seems to base rules on what needs to be sold, and a host of other complaints.

Just trying to put it in perspective.

So just because one company screws over their players worse, we should accept another company screwing us over to a lesser extent?

No, that argument isn't quite valid.

Rackham has screwed over players and suffered from mismanagement, they deserve the scrutiny. However, if they can keep up the releases and keep the prices lower for these boxes, all the better.

However, Rackham seems to be buying into the GW mindset.

Does anyone know if these box sets will be available in the UK? I've seen $ prices and € prices but not seen any £ prices anywhere... Or is it a case of the UK market is to small for them to bother?
Mick

I plan on getting the army boxes for any armies they put out. I think this is a really great game and hope to get a good group going in my area.

My reasons for playing are:
#1 prepainted / preassembled - I don't have much time to game so I don't want to waste time assembling and painitng, especially when I'm terrible at it anyway.
#2 Cost - The game costs less and require less minis to play than 40k which it seems tGW is making some things cheaper in the codexes or available in larger numbers so you have to buy more of them. I could buy 2 maybe more AT-43 armies for the price of 1 40k army
#3 Rules - I really like the rule system, granted some of the english rules interpretations need work. But I like the I take actions with a unit then you do. I have played 40k games frequently where my opponent has destoyed a good portion of my army before I even got a turn. I know that some of that is luck, placement...etc...but I think its far less tactical when I move and shoot my entire army then you do the same.

I tried asking a local game store about starting a group at thier location, which is 75% GW players and was told that no I couldn't play there because they had no plans on selling it :(. They don't like or sell prepainted games and one of the owners jokingly refers to themselves as "hobby snobs".

If anyone in the north Atlanta area wants to play or knows of a place to play please let me know. I should have 2 complete armies in the near future if anyone wants to give it a try before buying into it. If I can find a place to play that is.

Visceral_Mass wrote:I plan on getting the army boxes for any armies they put out. I think this is a really great game and hope to get a good group going in my area.

My reasons for playing are:
#1 prepainted / preassembled - I don't have much time to game so I don't want to waste time assembling and painitng, especially when I'm terrible at it anyway.
#2 Cost - The game costs less and require less minis to play than 40k which it seems tGW is making some things cheaper in the codexes or available in larger numbers so you have to buy more of them. I could buy 2 maybe more AT-43 armies for the price of 1 40k army
#3 Rules - I really like the rule system, granted some of the english rules interpretations need work. But I like the I take actions with a unit then you do. I have played 40k games frequently where my opponent has destoyed a good portion of my army before I even got a turn. I know that some of that is luck, placement...etc...but I think its far less tactical when I move and shoot my entire army then you do the same.

I tried asking a local game store about starting a group at thier location, which is 75% GW players and was told that no I couldn't play there because they had no plans on selling it :(. They don't like or sell prepainted games and one of the owners jokingly refers to themselves as "hobby snobs".

If anyone in the north Atlanta area wants to play or knows of a place to play please let me know. I should have 2 complete armies in the near future if anyone wants to give it a try before buying into it. If I can find a place to play that is.

You make some good points about the game and the hobby snobs!
Keep looking for a place to play Comic stores are another option as AT-43 is a "gateway" for boardgamers and such and belive it or not you have friends in the hobby try fan groups like New England AT-43 Fan Group http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEAT-43/ membership is open to everyone and we seen players get hooked up with others thru that site from all over including England...LOL

Regardless of what is said on this forum the game is going well and fans are growing our First monday of the month AT-43 game night has a from 4 to 10 players showing up regularly and it started with just one guy like your self ...keep fighting the good fight....

Anyone noticed that the box cover for the Red Blok force includes a new Medfium ** strider with two AT cannon. About time.