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Lansirill wrote:Just pointing out BT Vindicators may not get siege shields, but we *do* get to take PotMS on our Vindicators. Frankly, I'm pretty happy with our Vindicators. Now... I wish we could take some sweet 85 point predators, but such is life.

Very true. But don't those 3++ storm shields depress you sometimes? I feel rather forced into Lightning Claw Assault Termies

y'know what's so great about BT? this:

10 initiates, 10 neophytes. all CC/BP+frags, with a powerfist and meltagun. That's right folks, for ~300 points, you get a space marine unit throwing out 56 S4 attacks that reroll to hit (you gave the EC the eternal hatred vow, right....?), plus the meltagun for blown transport+charged contents goodness. This beastly unit will kill ~21 orks, or ~8 marines on the charge, excluding the 20 bolt pistol shots on the charge. Oh, and they score.

The other nice thing is being able to allocate wounds for the best usage of the varied armour saves. Plasma? byebye neophyte. bolters? suck it up with power armour. Want to ensure you get your righteous zeal move? Let a neophyte get cut down by that AP4 heavy bolter.

Or, if you're a mechanized guy, do the same thing minus 5 neophytes and the frags (~230 points instead) and load them up in a LR crusader. Here's what happens when your LRC rushes 30 shoota boys in cover. hurricane bolters+pistols kill 5 orks. You assault, go first, and kill 13 more. He attacks back (12 left), wounds 4 times. You put those on marines, losing 1. The PK nob kills another one, on a neophyte. He takes 12 saves, loses 10 more orks, and has 5 left. In his turn you butcher them, consolidate back to your LRC so that in your turn you can mount up and drive on to the next one. Killing ~200 points worth of orks in exchange for less than 30 points of marines? hilarity.

My brother plays Black Templar. In 2000, he fields 4 of these 20-man units backed up by multi-melta/Heavy flamer dreads, melta bikes, and everybody's favorite 4e unit; the 5-man double assault cannon terminator squad. It's rather tasty, I must say.

Lansirill wrote:Now... I wish we could take some sweet 85 point predators, but such is life.

True, but the BT (Annihilator) with Las Sponsons is 20 cheaper than a C:SM one

Another feature- BT Assualt squad members can ALL have meltabombs. For when you absolutely, positively have to blow that tank

BT's are amazing in 5th ed.

They got a huge power boost with the new combat rules, the changes to preferred enemy, assaulting vehicle rules and the run rules. Plus they can still take las plas squads and 2 assault cannon termy squads, or L.Claw terminator squads with furious assault.

Plop down a few 20 man crusader squads and laugh as you get a turn 2 charge that crushes everything in its path baring the best assault units in the game, but even then it will be a close fight.

Black Templars are sweet now.

I wouldn't worry. The Templars will eventually be brought in line with the Marine Codex. Their prices will be switched around, all their options and Wargear lists will vanish, but you'll get 3+(I) Storm Shields!

H.B.M.C. wrote:I wouldn't worry. The Templars will eventually be brought in line with the Marine Codex. Their prices will be switched around, all their options and Wargear lists will vanish, but you'll get 3+(I) Storm Shields!

QFT. This is what I am scared is going to happen September to my wolves, but, I shall Grit my teeth and move on I suppose

Gritting your teeth might be all you are able to do if they remove True Grit. I don't see them doing it, but that whole host of rules Woof players get is about to shrink. And say good bye to Wolf Tooth Necklaces and Belts or Russ and all those other things - Wolf Lords will have 4+(I) saves, one of the others will get the necklace, and a special character will get Mark of the Wulfen (take Wulfen as Troops and/or Wulfen count as Scoring)

Should be fun, and by fun I mean boring.

Well, It's pretty much Guaranteed that Grey Hunters are getting Chaos Marine "ubergrit" and that Frost Blades are becoming relic Blades and that all our Special Characters are going to rocket in Points and Be worse in Combat, so I suppose there will be a little good to counteract the bad.

As well as a rumoured unique Land Raider Variant. Oh please let this be true, just so we can Laugh at the Codex: Ultramarine Players

Gwar! wrote:
As well as a rumoured unique Land Raider Variant. Oh please let this be true, just so we can Laugh at the Codex: Ultramarine Players

Land Raider: Longboat? Fits the theme, I guess. I'd be very worried as a swolf. Get ready to play some grey ultramarines!

Hmmm, but if they base Swolf points costs off the current codex:SM, how do they justify making BT and DA pay more for the same?

Mysteries, mysteries

Mad Rabbit wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
As well as a rumoured unique Land Raider Variant. Oh please let this be true, just so we can Laugh at the Codex: Ultramarine Players

Land Raider: Longboat? Fits the theme, I guess. I'd be very worried as a swolf. Get ready to play some grey ultramarines!

Hmmm, but if they base Swolf points costs off the current codex:SM, how do they justify making BT and DA pay more for the same?

Mysteries, mysteries

They are older codex's, that's how they justify it! Don't worry, they will update you all Soon™ and you will become Bland and Uninteresting just like Nillas and Wolves. From What I hear, Grey Hunters are going to be about 19 or 20 points, have Ubergrit, Standard Grenades, Stubborn (Instead of Combat Tactics, an ability to KEEP them in CC rather than making them run like Babies) and and ATSKNF. They MIGHT have Counter attack, but as they have ubergrit, I am not sure if they will.

Land Raider variant? That would do what exactly? Carry more troops (like 20). If that's the case, let me just say that our group already came up with the Land Raider Pandora, a Land Raider with no sponsons that carries 20 people.

Is the Battleforce a good place to start with the BTs? I ordered my codex and some
Crusader upgrade sprues at the FLGS.

Well as good as any start I 'spose. You do get some regular Scouts, which gives you a good start on the neophytes. It wouldn't be worth it if they were Sniper Scouts, but thankfully they are not. Combined with a few Crusader sprues it should be a good start.

Not a huge start mind you - you'd need two or three BattleForces to get a decent sized army going, plus some extras (Land Raiders and whatnot) - but it is a start.

An alternative is the big Strikeforce. You get a lot in that. No scouts though, and I'm not so sure how useful the Command Squad is to a BT player.

I'll take the starts. I don't buy anything for a single army in bulk.

Any reason why malf?

I tend to buy everything in bulk. When I bought my Deathguard army, I did just that - I bought a Deathguard army! One fell swoop, 6 squads of 7-men, another squad of 7 Terminators, all the needed FW conversion kits to convert the regular Marines into Plague Maries, Rhinos, Daemons, Greater Daemon, Daemon Prince, etc. I've done the whole 'squad at a time' thing and I never liked it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Any reason why malf?

I tend to buy everything in bulk. When I bought my Deathguard army, I did just that - I bought a Deathguard army! One fell swoop, 6 squads of 7-men, another squad of 7 Terminators, all the needed FW conversion kits to convert the regular Marines into Plague Maries, Rhinos, Daemons, Greater Daemon, Daemon Prince, etc. I've done the whole 'squad at a time' thing and I never liked it.

I like to buy, build, and paint in pieces so that I can have multiple projects brewing
so as to avoid getting burned out working on any one. I think it took me nearly a year
to finish a playable High Elf army and several years to ever call my Wood Elves done.
Right now I'm stuck on Dark Elves because I can't make the conversion I have in mind
work.

I only recently finished my Hordes Trollbloods army, and expanded my Cryx one.

So really I buy multiple squads at a time, but each from different armies. It helps to
paint more than I play.

Gwar! wrote:
As well as a rumoured unique Land Raider Variant.

Oh, no doubt.
____

Mad Rabbit wrote:if they base Swolf points costs off the current codex:SM, how do they justify making BT and DA pay more for the same

This is the price BA, BT, DA, SW pay for not fielding primarily Codex 10-man squads of SM, but instead being able to take Assault Marines, mixed Scouts, DW / RW, or GH / BC. It's why C: SM are the the best at what they do, and sucky at what the BA, BT, DA, or SW do best.

Mordantos wrote:

Lansirill wrote:Now... I wish we could take some sweet 85 point predators, but such is life.

True, but the BT (Annihilator) with Las Sponsons is 20 cheaper than a C:SM one

Another feature- BT Assualt squad members can ALL have meltabombs. For when you absolutely, positively have to blow that tank

Okay, I thought our tri-las predators were cheaper, but I didn't have my codex so I didn't want to say anything.

And, yes, the BT Assault Squad of Tanky Doom is very nice. I've started fielding those a lot lately. Unfortunately, I play against Necrons a lot, so they're pretty worthless in those games.

I know anecdotal evidence isn't as convincing as mathammer but....

10 Black Templars vs 10 SternGuards, both with powerfists, with Pedro in support = SternGuard win.

Why? I've found the Templars cause a bunch of wounds when they charge in, but they can't break the Sternguard because of Stubborn. The Pedro Guards have 3 attacks a round ( due to Pedro in 12 inch range), matching the Templars in the first round, and outmatching them in the 2nd on, even with the Preferred Enemy. The kicker...the Templar fist only gets 2 attacks on the charge, then 1 attack per round, while the Pedroguard fist has 3 attacks per turn....That usually is what tips the balance.

Against other fearless armies, you see the same thing. Templar armies get worn down.

Now that is squad on squad. What I've found that hurts Templars the most is lack of long range shooting. A mobile army can play keep away, and seize objectives or deny KP's. If you take dreads or predators, you lessen the number of marines for HTH, and you need numbers these days due to the no consolidate into combat rules. The days of one uberunit wiping out whole swathes of the enemy are long gone.

On the flip side...a Sword Brethern squad with furious charge, power weapon and lightning claws is sweet, as is the Command Squad ( which you take to give a character furious charge). But expensive.

Also something good about Templars....their drop pods have 2 weapons, and can fire the Deathwind Launchers when they drop in.

My belief ultimately is Vanilla Marines beat Templars, due to numbers and versatility.

KeithGatchalian wrote:

I know anecdotal evidence isn't as convincing as mathammer but....

10 Black Templars vs 10 SternGuards, both with powerfists, with Pedro in support = SternGuard win.

Why? I've found the Templars cause a bunch of wounds when they charge in, but they can't break the Sternguard because of Stubborn. The Pedro Guards have 3 attacks a round ( due to Pedro in 12 inch range), matching the Templars in the first round, and outmatching them in the 2nd on, even with the Preferred Enemy. The kicker...the Templar fist only gets 2 attacks on the charge, then 1 attack per round, while the Pedroguard fist has 3 attacks per turn....That usually is what tips the balance.

I´m not up to date on SM but pretty much anything without support against a special character supported squad will lose. Your example seems to be missing something to look right.

M.

How does that match up points wise?

Yeah I dunno if 10 Basic Templars vs 10 Elite Marines + Special Character is what I'd consider a 'fair' match up, and, in fact, is precisely why anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.

And BT terminators can beat SM scouts. Neither matchup makes no difference to this discussion because 1 they aren't equivalent, and 2 two squads never go 1v1 in a vacuum. This is about the difference between the armies, not who would win.

Overall, if you want the flexibility of the SM, go with a codex:SM force. If you have something specific you want to do, go with a chapter like DA or BT that have a more specific specialty. The BT do what they do well and I like them. Others might not, and that is why they play different armies with different play styles. It's all good.