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Emperors Faithful wrote:Ummmmm...
Well Gwar I really had to think about that...

Let's see...Sluaghtering thousands of innocents (term used loosely) for a laugh, corrupting and demoralising good people (again used loosely) for a laugh. Having their followers kill/rape/infect/corrupt thier victims?

Does "Pure Evil" ring any bells there?

Sounds just like the Imperium to me.

You also seem to have glossed over the other aspects of the Chaos gods we mentioned in this thread.

Isn't the point that no one truly believes they are evil, that it is all relative. I am pretty sure all the Chaos Legions out there are positive they are doing a good thing.

Fearspect wrote:Isn't the point that no one truly believes they are evil, that it is all relative. I am pretty sure all the Chaos Legions out there are positive they are doing a good thing.

True, Good and Evil are meaningless terms and vary from place to place.
To the Loyalists of the First Founding, the Traitor legions are scum of the worst kind, cowards, oath breakers and betrayers, corrupted by their own greed.
To the Traitor Legions, the First Founding legions are nothing but pathetic Lapdogs to a liar and false God, one who would unite the Galaxy in the Name of Truth only to pervert it for his own lust for power.

After all, the Chaos powers claimed to Horus that the Emperor tricked them and was planing to destoy them and that they had no desire to take over the Material World. I actually see some truth in this, as the Chaos powers NEED the material world to sustain them. Without humans and stuff providing Emotions, they are powerless. Destroying the Galaxy would just result in them dying as well.

The notion of good and evil is far from meaningless.

A fictional, over-the-top notion of good and evil however is.

It's very different killing thousands for your survival. The Imperium believes it is doing good.
Chaos and Chaos Marines are after thier own ends, regardless of morals.
The chaos gods and chaos space marines kill, maim and torture with a certain unerving glee.

Emperors Faithful wrote:It's very different killing thousands for your survival. The Imperium believes it is doing good.
Chaos and Chaos Marines are after thier own ends, regardless of morals.
The chaos gods and chaos space marines kill, maim and torture with a certain unerving glee.

You claim they do it for no reason. How do you know they don't have a legitimate reason for it?

Does fun count as a legitimate reason? Or becuase it suits thier own DIABOLICAL, selfish ends?

Why does the Imperium shoot its own soldiers for sucking and blow up planets with billions of innocents and a single heretic on them?

Chaos Marines think they're doing the right thing.

Khorne's followers can't help their bloodlust. They're ALWAYS ANGRY, ALL THE TIME!

Nurgle's followers are happy all the time. It's true.

Slaanesh's followers are experimenting. Just like teenagers.

Tzeentch plots because it's pretty fething boring in the warp.

Chaos marines think they're doing the good thing? Do you seriously believe that? Of course SOME renegades may feel betrayed by the Imperium (those that couldn't hack it).

But for the most part, Chaos Marinz are selfish, self-serving fiends. They have no feelings for others, no love, no emotion short of hate, fury and lust. How can these be considered good things?

And would you say burning worlds in the name of an Emperor who doesn't actually talk to anyone and trying to destroy the alien races rather than make peace with them is a good thing?

At least Chaos Marines have the sense to try and make allies. See: Dawn of War. The Alpha Legion allied with the Orks on Tartarus, giving them weapons and fighting in exchange for cover.

The Imperium is trying to survive. Can you honestly say that if the Imperium was anymore lenient it would survive? No.

Anyway, Humanity HAD probably tried to make peace with Xenos. (like Tau). But how do you think that worked out? Orks + Peace? No way. Humanity had been enslaved galaxy wide by a variety of chaos and xenos. (Before the Crusades). Humanity learnt from it's mistakes, like the Tau soon will if they want to survive. It is a harsh galaxy after all.

Anyway, the Orks were only a means to an end. They had no feelings for them. (not that anyone could)


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IG and Spahz Marinz ally with Eldar (and even Tau) quite often. In fact the Whole Battlefleet gothic, and 13th Crusade had both been resited by a alliance of Eldar and Imperials. This was more than mere bribery, they were organised in thier efforts together. (It wouldn't last forever though)

Cheese Elemental wrote:And would you say burning worlds in the name of an Emperor who doesn't actually talk to anyone and trying to destroy the alien races rather than make peace with them is a good thing?

Just the needed "cleanse and purify" mission to secure mankind from the xenos threat.
Its only a job. Nothing personal.

Cheese Elemental wrote:At least Chaos Marines have the sense to try and make allies. See: Dawn of War. The Alpha Legion allied with the Orks on Tartarus, giving them weapons and fighting in exchange for cover.

So green meatshields do count as "allies"? Are those so-called "marines" sunk so low to accept orkzez as equals?

I had a feeling people were going to bring up the Imperium, but this thread I thought was if the "Chaos Gods" were good, not if The Imperium is evil which IMO it is but I keep out for the hope that Big E will wake up and bring it back to the badasser of the Great Crusade . Anyways back on topic, its true no matter how we argue it some will think there good others evil and others just dont care lol. I could argue tho that they are created from the negative/evil emotions of all living things thus themselves being born evil i mean cant get more evil/negative then being born from the very thoughts and emotions that are evil or negative, me saying that of course is based on today's standards of what morals are and what is negative or positive for the majority of people on earth.

Ummm, We were actually trying to define if there IS evil. Which IMO there is. It's is easily linkable to whether or not the Imperium is evil (as many mortal thoughts are from there). But we WERE kind of getting off track.

Either Chaos gods are evil, or there IS no evil! IMO there is, so therefore the Chaos Gods are evil "laughter of the Thirsting Gods"?

Most of what the Imperium knows about Chaos comes from experiences on the frontline, and the Imperium are far too stupid to take captives and question them.

And if Chaos is evil, and it still has enough support to exist, then the Imperium clearly IS evil. Do you think Khorne doesn't like a good Exterminatus?

Well, no not really. He'd prefer to slit each and everyone of those peoples throats himself. Exterminatus is mercifully quick, and only done out of necessity, not glee.

Oh lol well then yeah id have to agree there is evil, and The Chaos Gods they be evil . The Imperium and Chaos are evil, The Imperium is just the lesser of two evils, Imperium's reasoing for doing all its evil stuff=survival, Choas Gods reasoning behind doing evil stuff= bigger throne of skulls? more pleasure? spreading diesese that bring pain and suffering? killin for knowledge? and all the while trying to kill each other for ultimate control, which can never happen so whats the fin point?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, no not really. He'd prefer to slit each and everyone of those peoples throats himself. Exterminatus is mercifully quick, and only done out of necessity, not glee.

Necessity? Is is necessary to blow up a planet to kill one heretic when he could easily be tracked down and killed?

And Khorne doesn't believe in dishonourable killing. His servants wouldn't kill someone who's completely helpless.

And seriously, drop the fanboy attitude... this is the internet. It's just dorky to RP like that in a thread.

tigonesskay wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Epsilon wrote:Ask Gwar!, I'm sure he knows the answer.

Nice

Lets all not forget Malal, the 5th secret Anti-Chaos Chaos God, and the Star Child, who is as close to a Chaos God as anything else can be.

I heard that Malal was either no longer cannon or was destoryed by the other chaos gods...

He lost to tzeentch in a game of chess....

It could turn out that the chaos gods aren't gods at all but just merely powerful thoughtforms.... and the old gods are hiding out in the warp somewhere. It's impossible that every single enity in the warp is bad....

tigonesskay wrote:It could turn out that the chaos gods aren't gods at all but just merely powerful thoughtforms.... and the old gods are hiding out in the warp somewhere. It's impossible that every single enity in the warp is bad....

The Term "Chaos God" has always been a Shorthand for "The 4 most Powerful Warp Beings"

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, no not really. He'd prefer to slit each and everyone of those peoples throats himself. Exterminatus is mercifully quick, and only done out of necessity, not glee.

Necessity? Is is necessary to blow up a planet to kill one heretic when he could easily be tracked down and killed?

And Khorne doesn't believe in dishonourable killing. His servants wouldn't kill someone who's completely helpless.

And seriously, drop the fanboy attitude... this is the internet. It's just dorky to RP like that in a thread.

So you're saying that if bloodletters/crushers/thirsters suddenly materialised in a hive full of men, women and children they WOULDN'T all rip to them shreds? No way!

And the Imperium would never blow up a planet to kill one heretic. I admit it wouldn't be out of compassion for the people. But a planet is just too darn valuable.

The BIG difference is that Imperium Killing=Survival (there IS NO other option), while Chaos Killing=Fun.

Who were you calling a fanboy? (Seriously: Explain RP thing) No need to get so worked up...


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tigonesskay wrote:It could turn out that the chaos gods aren't gods at all but just merely powerful thoughtforms.... and the old gods are hiding out in the warp somewhere. It's impossible that every single enity in the warp is bad....

I agree with you tigonesskay, there would be some "good" chaos being. But the main 4 gods, Tzeench, Khorne, Nurgle and Slaneesh and all their armies are definitley evil.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, no not really. He'd prefer to slit each and everyone of those peoples throats himself. Exterminatus is mercifully quick, and only done out of necessity, not glee.

Necessity? Is is necessary to blow up a planet to kill one heretic when he could easily be tracked down and killed?

And Khorne doesn't believe in dishonourable killing. His servants wouldn't kill someone who's completely helpless.

And seriously, drop the fanboy attitude... this is the internet. It's just dorky to RP like that in a thread.

So you're saying that if bloodletters/crushers/thirsters suddenly materialised in a hive full of men, women and children they WOULDN'T all rip to them shreds? No way!

And the Imperium would never blow up a planet to kill one heretic. I admit it wouldn't be out of compassion for the people. But a planet is just too darn valuable.

The BIG difference is that Imperium Killing=Survival (there IS NO other option), while Chaos Killing=Fun.

The predator aliens had more honor than the chaos gods....

Ok, i knew very little of the chaos gods before i started 40k (friend talks about it too much) But even then i knew that some part of them had to be a "good side" just like everything else, look at everything about 40k, it all has a little good, a little evil, to make that sense of neutrality, gw designed fluff to make sure no one race could be called "the good guys" or "the bad guys," that way there is no bias as to what race to buy beforehand, so bite me, Gwar! is right, just like he always has been, always will be.

bigdaddydreadnought wrote:Gwar! is right, just like he always has been, always will be.

Glad to see some people make sense around these parts

And the Only race that could be considered "Good Guys" were the tau when they were new (and thus were pushed to sell). Now that we know they are all Mind Controlling evil Space Nazis with Acid Mines (cf. Vraks), they are back to the Neutral position

So what? Even the most vile people have a good side, doesn't stop them from being bad. But I would say that the Evil aspects far outwiegh the good aspects for the Chaos gods.

Where is the Justice? The desire for peace? Morality? Self-Control? where are these aspects in the chaos gods?


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Forgot: Kindness & Love (as in love love, not slaneesh "I will have you" love)

Morality? The Imperium send millions of guardsmen to die each day.

Kindness? The Imperium kill anyone who doesn't worship the Emperor.

And of course Khorne's daemons kill senselessly. He's a god of war. All his daemons exist to do is fight. Not for their own evil gain, but just because it's what they've always done. Humanity created them, it's their fault.

First of all I never said that Kindness was a big thing in the Imperium. I was saying that kindness was not an aspect of chaos gods. Also, humanity alone did not create Khorne (mortals did).

Anyway, the Imperium couldn't AFFORD to blow up a whole planet to get a single heretic. That's what inquisitors are for. And remember, inquisitors vary hugely from each other.

As for morality, the Imperium realizes that to let the evil forces destroy the whole of humanity would be more Immoral than to send soldiers to fight for them.

And don't forget that individual humans could be kind-hearted, and peaceful. It is sad that such extreme measures must be taken, but what is the alternative?

The big argument for the Imperium is that it is by far the Lesser of Two evils.

Chaos isn't trying to destroy humanity. If humans become extinct, Chaos ceases to exist. Why do you think they fight the Tyranids and Necrons?

Emperors Faithful wrote:First of all I never said that Kindness was a big thing in the Imperium. I was saying that kindness was not an aspect of chaos gods. Also, humanity alone did not create Khorne (mortals did).

Actually, Khorne and Nurgle are entirely due to Human Activity in the Warp. Tzeentch is tricky (some say he was created by the Old Ones to kill the necrons) but he was certainly Strengthened by Humanity.

Slaanesh was Eldar bumping Uglies.