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The old codex was beardier.

Sorry, i like the new codex, and I thought the "if you take him you cant take that guy" from the last codex was unecessarily restricting.

Certain Fluff addicts may disagree, but looking at the fluff in the codexes and main rules, it seems to me that Chaos is more likely to band together than the Imperium.

Chaos has launched 13 Crusades with Yabbadon getting troops, daemons, cultists etc from every god together for a group gangb@ng of every planet outside the Eye, starting at Cadia. Cooperation is a natural result of common goals and if the goal is important enough, it will consistently overcome differences in idealogical outlook and or religion. I'll use Russia and the US in World War two - incredibly different outlooks with communism and capitalism, but when the germans and Japanese attacked, they joined as allies.

Also - it sometimes bugs me when people complain about mixing Zerker's and 1ksons, when having more than a couple of bands of Zerkers is more unlikely to occur. After the betrayal of Kharn, the Zerkers split up into hundreds of small warbands - mainly because they kept attacking each other.

Finally,when fluff-afying my battles, my Black Legion army is supported by cult marines, all operating under the power of a strong leader, normally a daemon prince. if its a Tzeen DP, this guy has convinced/tricked the others into cooperating. If its slaanesh DP, the DP has them in thrall (just cos your one cultist mariine doesnt mean your immune to another gods power). Khorne DP's hold their bands together by force etc - do they respect sorcerers - no. do they desire a hollow armour sheild to let them get close and personal? Hell yeah - all violence gets skulls for the skull throne! and so on.

I understand that people miss the old restrictive fluff, but people react like GW (or GM?) killed their mother.

The new CSM codex allows for warbands instead of Legions. While legions are cool, warbands allow players to have Plague Marines, 1k Sons, and generic CSM lead by a Khorne Chaos lord. It allows for variety of play. Besides, in the Chaos Daemons codex, it states that the Chaos gods will work together if it gives them power and eliminates something that can hinder all four of them. Their not true enemies, more like arguing siblings. Ever notice how they could destroy each other but won't?

The concept of warbands was in the old codex. You could take an undivided army with Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines, but without their corresponding marked HQ, they were elites. E.g. In order to take Berzerkers as troops, you needed a Khorne Lord, which actually made a lot of sense.

The new codex is an absolute debacle and goes against everything CSM stand for.

The real solution would be Codex: Chaos Renegades and Codex: Chaos Legions, but I am sure that would give all the Dark Eldar Player (not a typo) a Brain Anurism (Hopefuly Tau Players too, but such things are just dreams sadly)

Oh noes! We cant let Zerker's and PM's be troops together.... that would be chaos!

hang on...

So basically its about not forcing them into an elite slot? I dont see the problem - as a chaos player, I love the new flexibility

A thread about how bad the current 'Chaos' Codex is? Why did no one call me!!!!!! This is, like, my subject of choice. Damn near wrote a thesis on the subject.

The current 'Chaos' Codex... isn't. There's nothing Chaotic about it. Good things got bad, bad things got good, some things got really bad (Furies anyone?) and they sucked the flavour out of Chaos. Daemon Gifts, something that's been a core part of Chaos since the days of Rogue Trader (D1000 tables anyone?) have vanished into thin air. There's only one real powerful build. There are things that are so obviously over/underpowered that it's a wonder they didn't catch them on the first read through. And the Random Possessed... I read Pete Haine's desiner notes from The Real Chaos Codex and he talked about how silly it was to roll random powers, and how no one took possessed because they were random. So what did they do? Made them random again, and you do it after deployment. AFTER? How the feth do you use a unit where you don't know what they're going to do before you even deploy them!!!!

The problem is, I think, that this Codex was written in a vacuum, that is to say written without even looking at any existing Codices (how else do you explain the price discrepancy between the 4th Ed Codex Marine Epistolary's cheap power cost and the fact that a Tzeentch Sorcerer - that is, a Sorcerer who works for the God of fething magic - has to pay 30 points before he can take another 15-30 point power). Gav, Alessio (and that thrice-damned Jervis) just took the original 3rd Ed book, did a Warwick-Pattern Copypasta, and then changed a few things here and there. The rules for Dreads, Spawn, Possessed, Defilers (WS3? Honestly?)... they boggle the mind with how idiotic they are. 40 point Blastmasters? CSM Squads that now have to have 10-men to have a heavy weapon... what? They're not fething Codex Marines. Where are the Legions? What differentiates an Iron Warrior from a Word Bearer from a Night Lord? Well, a paint scheme now.

As someone who owns a World Eater, Death Guard, Word Bearer, Alpha Legion and Iron Warrior army - all totalling around 30,000 points worth of stuff, including well over AUD$1000 worth of Daemons - the current Codex was a huge, huge blow.

And speaking of Daemons... my God... Generic Daemons. What the holy-high-feth were they thinking when they did this? Probably about all the new model kits they could sell splitting Daemons off into their own utterly unnecessary book.

Cheese Elemental wrote:The old codex was beardier.

'Cept you could do beardy with just about every Legion in the book ('sides 1KSons, who Tzsucked). Now you can do it with one... Lash/Oblits. Yay. What fun.

That review brought me to Dakka. I love you.

I love you too Cheese.

Now let's celebrate our love with a manly and totaly heterosexual hand shake.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I love you too Cheese.

Now let's celebrate our love with a manly and totaly heterosexual hand shake.

Cheese and H.B.M.C.: Best Friends
AND NOTHING ELSE

"Conclusion: Cousins. Totally cousins."

I realise hardly anyone will get the quote above, but for those who do:

As a former Alpha Legion player, I'll tell you I don't give a rat's ass about the restrictions that were taken away.

You know what's restricting? Playing a cult army now, that's restricting. Being unable to give your chosen anything besides "infiltrate", and your daemon princes anything besides "wings", that's restricting. Trying to play a Khorne army with a daemon prince that's worse in close combat than the prince of any other god is restricting. Playing a Tzeentch army and ending up with a pathetic sorcerer and overpriced troops is restricting. Not being able to use a basilisk is a restriction, not having veteran skills available for anyone is restricting, having no human servants for chaos - in the codex or outside of it - that is restricting. Not being able to take a Dark Apostle is restricting. Not being able to take more than two permutations of daemon is restricting. When attempting to use two thirds of the options means that your points are wasted, that is restricting.

The claim that the new chaos codex is less restricting is ridiculous. So you couldn't take plague marines if your general had the mark of Tzeentch; so what? At least you could represent nine legions. You could have the Word Bearer's leaders, the Iron Warrior's artillery, the Alpha Legion and Night Lord's skills, the Cults' daemons and gifts. Now you can represent one. The Black Legion. Everything else takes a back seat

I hate this codex.

I think we need to start Mailing GW Children's Fingers until they Make a Codex: Chaos Renegades and Codex: Chaos Legions

I'd take a retcon of the current abomination and an update to the previous edition's Codex.

Written by Phil Kelly (as he's the only one who seems capable of writing a half-way decent Codex).

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd take a retcon of the current abomination and an update to the previous edition's Codex.

Written by Phil Kelly (as he's the only one who seems capable of writing a half-way decent Codex).

Phil Kelly? Oh yes, Mr Phil "5th Edition Space Wolves" Kelly

No Bland and Uninteresting crapfest for us TYVM

-Taunts-

Gwar! wrote:No Bland and Uninteresting crapfest for us TYVM

here's hoping

Manchu wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No Bland and Uninteresting crapfest for us TYVM

here's hoping

Well, so far things are looking good. The only things I am concerned about are the rumours about No TH+SS Combo and the AllOrNothing™ Drop Pods.

The first one I'm not too worries about because nobody uses Wolf Guard Termies ANYWAY and it seems kind of odd for GW to want to not let use Old Models that had them. The Drop pod thing too wont affect me (I play all Pod ANYWAY) but it seems like a needless restriction.

Gwar! wrote:Phil Kelly? Oh yes, Mr Phil "5th Edition Space Wolves" Kelly.

Phil Kelly wrote Orks.
Jervis wrote Dark Angels.

Wait... he did, right?

I know Kelly Definitely wrote orks, not sure who wrote DA though, that page has been used already (It is toilet paper after all)

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Jervis wrote Dark Angels.

Wait... he did, right?

yes, along with Andy Hoare

Phil Kelly wrote Eldar, Orks, and Warriors of Chaos, all of which are my favourite codecies to read. He writes fluff really well.

Gwar! wrote:The Drop pod thing too wont affect me (I play all Pod ANYWAY) but it seems like a needless restriction.

I'd say that's accurate from the old times.

Leman Russ is too short for a Primarch.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Leman Russ is too short for a Primarch.

Those are fighting words.

It's a trick of Perspective, He's actually really really far away and the rest of the wolves are wearing pumps

But yeah, I know Wolves (especially Ragnar) are renowned for their Drop Pod Assaults (Space wolves were the first Marines to get Drop Pod Rules ) but that doesn't mean they never send down lone pods.

In fact, Leman Russ is the worst Primarch ever.

He wasn't sent away by Horus, he was too chicken to go near Terra until the big baddie had his balls stomped by the Empra.

That picture is epicness on a grand scale

It's only epic fail. Can't you see Russ is running away from the scary pyramids?

as Manchu said before... 'Those are fighting words' XD

Cheese Elemental wrote:It's only epic fail. Can't you see Russ is running away from the scary pyramids?

Don't mind Cheese. His selective Alzheimer's prevents him from remembering that the painting I posted is the cover of a book called:

PROSPERO BURNS

Also, Worst (Loyalist) Primarch Ever prize goes to the Lion. I will engage DAs who disagree in ritual combat.