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Or just make them better.

They need to stay WS4. They aren't Tau who purposefully shun HtH. They are robots who have been anhilating races since the creation of the universe. I imagine they've figured out how to throw a punch. If you want to limit the HtH abilities of their non HtH troops, keep them at I2. It bones them well enough already.

Uriels_Flame wrote:How is 24" assault weapons (which the Immortals have already) OP?

But Immortals are an elite unit. Giving a line unit 24" assault weapons seems OTT to me. I'd rather seem Necrons have S&P and a rapid fire (or even heavy) weapon instead. While a lot of armies can close ground quicker than in fourth edition, letting a unit dance around at 18 to 24 inch range while firing at maximum efficiency is pretty powerful.

I'd be ok with Necrons losing Phase Out. Whether it's characterful or not, I don't think it adds a lot of fun to the game. It's an odd rule that is supposed to balance out Monoliths and Pariahs and C'tan. Balance them by getting the rules and point values right. Plus, with Phase Out, it makes the army less competive at lower point limits, since you have to take a bunch of Necrons, it doesn't leave much room for 'other stuff'.

dietrich wrote:Giving a line unit 24" assault weapons seems OTT to me. I'd rather seem Necrons have S&P and a rapid fire (or even heavy) weapon instead. While a lot of armies can close ground quicker than in fourth edition, letting a unit dance around at 18 to 24 inch range while firing at maximum efficiency is pretty powerful.

Not really. Warriors get massacred in CC; giving them Assault 1 Flayers means they can stay out of hittin' range of most units, and considering the relatively high cost of Warriors you aren't exactly getting a withering fusillade of fire, either.

Relentless might be better, an entire army with Difficult Terrain checks slows down very quickly (even more then they already do not haveing transports)

Relentless with a Rifle allows them to move and engage at 24", without being at full power untill 12" I wouldn't bring the weapons AP under 5 standard, personaly. To many armies base costs are based on AP5 rifles.

If we want to give out standerdized stat-lines, then I think they should stay WS4,BS4 - they troops as good as the eldar for longer then most space marines have been alive. If we perfer to go specialist, then Give the CC troops WS5BS3, and the Ranged guys WS3BS4.

I still think i'd like to see Necron get a 'get out of combat free' card. I'd make up for warriros getting otherwise massacured.

And now for something compleatly different:
WS3, BS5, S4, T2, W1, I2, A1, SV 2+/5++, WBB
Weapon: Str 1, AP 5, 24" Rapid Fire, Gauss, Poison (4+)

Change WBB to FNP that works against str double Toughness
The poison is to repersent the target being pulled apart.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Change WBB to FNP that works against str double Toughness

Why not change it to just FNP and leave them T4? Having exceptions to exceptions that don't need to be there is bad rules writing. FNP is already an exception with built in exceptions:

1. May only take one save type.
2. Except FNP.
2a. Except when the attack is X2S or AP1, AP2, or is a Power Weapon.

And you want to add:

2b. Except when the model is a Necron.

That's an exception to an exception to an exception to a rule. No, evil, wrong, bad.

I agree.

Keep it simple. They are the in-between for MEQ and non-MEQ.

They already have no upgrades, their Armory is a joke, and suffer from high point mandatory troops.

S&P does nothing for keeping them out of CC, unless you give them more troops choices for tarpits - which I give you scarabs and flayed ones for troops.

Maybe the ability to use flayed ones like Goblin Fanatics - popping out right before the unit gets assaulted, thereby allowing the "warriors" to leave CC while the flayed ones stay?

Your likely right, but given the title of the thread I was trying to come up with things ouside of the traditional style stat lines. As was said earlier, Other then special rules, there are only 3 things that modify how hard it is to kill things.

Toughness, Wounds and Save.

In almost everything up to this point (and definoutly basic troops), we've seen resiliance repersented by slight increases toughness and sugnifigant increases in Saves, taken togeather.

The first guys sugestion, while perhaps a bit off, was proposing making necron tough by increasing their wounds, rather then their save.

My first stat sugestion was based on making Toughness their primary defense, that their body was resiliant, not armored. (and yes, nids do have armor in the form of exoskelitons)

The second statline (listed above) is based on increasing their save with low toughness. Repersenting that they eather shrug off a weapon, or it destroys them.

Necrons should have WBB it's what makes them necrons for gods sake. fnp is too easily over run and used by most armies now.

I think that necrons in general should have at least T5 prefferably 6 for Warriors, lords, elite units.

I would also lower the non close combat units to WS3 and BS5.
close combat units would have WS5 and BS3.

I'd make scarabs a necron unit as well as place it in the troop choices.

I like the idea of my warriors having assault weapons.

By the way all guass weapons count as being rending and having a glancing blow on a 6 against vehicles already.

As for saves make it 4++

Stucer wrote:Necrons should have WBB it's what makes them necrons for gods sake. fnp is too easily over run and used by most armies now.

It's also easier, a lot less clunky and it's really not easily overrun, because most weapons firing AP 1 or 2 at you are causing ID anyway.

Exept for it basically deafeat the pupose of a Necron unit and necrons as a whole lose their identity towards being a unique army.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:My first stat sugestion was based on making Toughness their primary defense, that their body was resiliant, not armored. (and yes, nids do have armor in the form of exoskelitons)

Their exoskeletons are part of their body though; that's no different from the necrons having a metal carapace that's part of their body. Or wraithguard getting an armor save from the wraithbone shell their outside is made from.

Stucer wrote:Exept for it basically deafeat the pupose of a Necron unit and necrons as a whole lose their identity towards being a unique army.

If WBB and other high-complexity/low-payoff rules are what it means to be "Necrons", I'd rather see Necrons Squatted.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Mars.Techpriest wrote:My first stat sugestion was based on making Toughness their primary defense, that their body was resiliant, not armored. (and yes, nids do have armor in the form of exoskelitons)

Their exoskeletons are part of their body though; that's no different from the necrons having a metal carapace that's part of their body. Or wraithguard getting an armor save from the wraithbone shell their outside is made from.

True, but that wouldn't be radically different now would it?

WBB, FNP, A rose by another name. Almost statisticly identical, and much easier to use.

I think that necrons in general should have at least T5 prefferably 6 for Warriors, lords, elite units.

I like the idea of my warriors having assault weapons.

By the way all guass weapons count as being rending and having a glancing blow on a 6 against vehicles already.

This could work if Necron Warriors were 45-40pts each, maybe. Guass weapons aren't rending, they only auto-wound on a 6, the don't ignore armor. I don't agree with Necron Warriors haveing assault weapons, mobility and Necron Troops just don't seem to go togeather to me. I think rapid fire works just fine for them.

WBB, FNP, A rose by another name. Almost statisticly identical, and much easier to use.

IMHO there is actually quite a drastic difference, especially with CC resolution in 5th.

WBB currently punishes 'Crons in CC. Sure, they might get 50% of downed necrons back next turn, but those down 'crons are dragging that combat resolution into the point of no return. Chances stand your 'crons will be wiped and you will be LUCKY to have another nit within 6" for the 'crons downed in CC to be able to WBB.

I don't want FNP for 'Crons, they need something unique. I'm okay with WBB as it is now. For people outside of the 'cron loop, it takes more time and seems encumbering, but once you know when to check what, it's quite viable.


What 'crons need is Troops that do their job. Warriors are the suck right now. Too many Fast, Hard hitting CC units that will shrug off the 1-2 turns of fire that you focus measly Gauss fire at, then they will charge in a rape anything other than C'tans. Crons need stubborn, fearless, or something else that makes it actually viable to use your troops for anything other than phase out tally and late game objective humping.

WBB leads to a lot of weard interactions with everyone elses (and even some of their own) special rules. How ever the mechanic changes, I think it really should be something that is far better intigrated in the rule system. Be that FNP for anything else within normal turn order that doesn't reqire sorta-there models.

Ah yes, Stubbern and Fearless, because nobody in 40K want's to deal with Morale. I think the Necron need a way out of combat more then they need a way to stay in it. If they don't brake, it just means those hard hitting CC units take an extra Assault phase to kill you, then you won't even have a shooting round before they assault the next group. I'm not sure how that makes them any more viable against powerful assault squads.

maybe a WBB works on a 5+ to counteract the lack of save, making them more zombie like. They're supposed to be tough and relentless, not space-marine like. if anything make the save on a 5+, if not 6+. it'll make them like zombies with more reslilance.

I agree with giving them something to counteract the lack of anti-armor, but giving your grunts AP1 weapons seems really extreme. maybe just the immortal gauss weapons?

If you do give them all AP1s, lower their WS, or give them slow and purposeful to all shooty necrons infantry, and lower their range a bit.

H.B.M.C. wrote:They should have armour saves.

And they should be WS3 if not 2. It's silly that they're as good as Marines in skill with weapons in HTH.

WS3 BS4 S4 T4 (or 5) W1 I2 A1 Sv3+/4+(FNP)
Gauss Flayer
R30 S4 AP4 Assault 2/Rending

An assault 2 gun with a 30 inch range? That seems far to good. Especially with the BS4. I'm all for not having to sacrifice shooting for mobility. It'd be nice if bolters were assault weapons. But I don't think giving a really good gun to an army of really tough guys is a good idea. They'll already be hard to kill with a 3+/4++ FNP. Add it a rending gun and what are you supposed to do against these guys?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarge wrote:They need to stay WS4. They aren't Tau who purposefully shun HtH. They are robots who have been anhilating races since the creation of the universe. I imagine they've figured out how to throw a punch. If you want to limit the HtH abilities of their non HtH troops, keep them at I2. It bones them well enough already.

Even at WS3 they hit most things on a 4. I'd rather see WS play a bigger part in CC. Then we could really differentiate the levels of CC badassery.

I agree on WS2 or 3.

4 is too high. For one thing, they're slow as hell. For another, they really have no reason to have close combat skills, unless we're talking about the actual close combat units.

WS4 is orks and space marines, both races that train extensively for close combat. The IG and Sisters train for close quarters fighting some, but they're still WS3. And they're not as slow as the necrons.

(Although, as Noisy_Marine said, there's not that much of a difference in practice.)

Orkeosaurus wrote:I agree on WS2 or 3.

4 is too high. For one thing, they're slow as hell. For another, they really have no reason to have close combat skills, unless we're talking about the actual close combat units.

WS4 is orks and space marines, both races that train extensively for close combat. The IG and Sisters train for close quarters fighting some, but they're still WS3. And they're not as slow as the necrons.

(Although, as Noisy_Marine said, there's not that much of a difference in practice.)

maybe lower their WS and raise they're strength? they're supposed to be zombie-like, so they're less likely to hit, but it should be really dangerous when they do, besides, if we're giving them assault guns, aren't we setting them up to be steamrollers in a way?

S4 is already extremely strong though. It's as strong as a space marine with a chainsword, I don't know that a necron is any stronger than a space marine. (Plus, S4 works better if you factor in close-range gauss firing.)

Also, I don't know that I'd give warriors assault guns myself. Maybe SaP instead. Hmm.

SaP on the only troop choice for an army with no dedicated transports?

Doesn't seem right.

Well, I'd only do that in conjunction with increased teleportation ability.

I think it's been suggested a few times that the necrons gain a lesser form of monolith that could act as a sort of transport.

Yeah but now you're going down a single lane road.

If Necrons are SaP, but you give them mini-liths, or whatever to compensate for that. Everyone will end up needing run those compensation units, the diversity in army list composition would evaporate. And let's face it, 'Crons are already hurting in list flexability.

What about Relentless instead? A teleport akin to Apoc's Strategic Redeployment could work to, as it forces the unit to stop 12" away from an opponent and not fire that round. Perhaps 1/turn as long as the lords alive, or each unit can do it once, etc.

The difficulty is figureing out how to give an army that shouldn't be moble the mobility to compeate.

i think teleportation would nail that problem to an extent.

What you could do is to simply give them a short range Deep Strike.

Teleporters - Instead of Moving, a unit of Necrons may use their Teleporters. Place one model up to 12" away from its current position and Deep Strike the remainder of the unit, following all of the rules for Deep Striking, if a Mishap occurs, the Opponent may re-roll the Mishap result.

This allows for considerably greater mobility, as they can teleport 12+" and the Run d6".

Or 12" and still fire. Makes them almost like Jump troops.

If every unit can do that every turn, I fear it makes them actualy to moble.

(whoever said it) might have actualy had something with the all DS in first turn idea. Large starting mobility, and repersents they're appearing around you/rising from the sand, etc. Also keeps the slow empecable advance fealing later on.

I don't think SaP is that much of a handicap, honestly.

You're averaging a little less than 4.5" a turn instead of 6". A little less than 8" instead of 9.5" if you're running. That's assuming that the model without SaP is outside of difficult terrain as well.

Now take into account that rapid fire weapons can't fire on the move, and the necrons have more mobility with a constant level of firepower.

It's roughly comparable, but it's not quite the same as Jump Infantry:
- cannot Assault
- less reliable due to Mishaps!
- if shooting, being clumped up increases vulnerability to counter-fire

But it would improve mobility somewhat