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Here's an idea for the Necrons that changes them from being MEqs into something unique.

Necron Warrior

WS4 BS4 S4 A1 T5 I1 W2 Ld 10 Sv-

Feel no pain
Fearless

Gauss Flayer
S4, AP1, Assualt 1 24"
Rending

The lack of a save stems from the fact they have no armor, they're metal skeletons, no metal skeletons in power armor. Feel no pain and T5 W2 represent their metal nature and their self repair.

The gauss guns are always described as shredding metal armor, so let's make it official. AP1 also means that they can destroy vehicle with a glancing hit.

Other units would get new stats based on this template.

AP 1 is rare a whole army of troops with it is a bit unfair a special rule would be better like on 6 always wounds and glances as well +1 to the damage chart making it so they can wreck vehicles on a glace and they need some kind of save, because there are lots of things that ignore feel no pain and you would be losing guys in swaths.

Even with no saves, that's blatantly unfair.

Power armour can take hits from gauss weapons in the novels. Having AP1 is just silly.

Interesting...but it seems like cover saves would take their defect away, while leaving them with anti-vehicle death beams.

yeah, having no saves is rediculous....warriors would be dropping like flies to anything, and think of close combat! Instakilling 2-wound guys with powerfists (which they already do, but still!) Also, fluff-wise: In several of the fluff stories, they don't drop to rocks hitting them (and with no saves rocks could kill them) and are pretty strong, as they are made of living metal. Living. Metal. sounds like it would be pretty strong, hence the 3+ save currently...

Also, AP1 weapons armywide: no...they would kill MEQS and other armies that have low troop numbers insanely fast...and 24" assault1 would probably turn into the best gunline ever. Also, rending plus AP1 still means that you won't glance nearly as often, as you only get D3 extra penetration, and 4+6+D3 is pretty bad compared to right now....+1 on the damage table is still a good idea

Eight Ball wrote:yeah, having no saves is rediculous....warriors would be dropping like flies to anything, and think of close combat! Instakilling 2-wound guys with powerfists (which they already do, but still!) Also, fluff-wise:

that's T5, 2W (so no instant death unless you're strength 10) AND a 4+ save to almost everything. Sure it's no armor save but they're not helpless.

oh yeah, forgot T5, but STILL, anything AP1/2 (Plasma Cannons anyone?) will tear these guys apart, and 2 wounds + no save + fnp means they are weaker than 1 wound + 3+save +WBB...

Eight Ball wrote:oh yeah, forgot T5, but STILL, anything AP1/2 (Plasma Cannons anyone?) will tear these guys apart, and 2 wounds + no save + fnp means they are weaker than 1 wound + 3+save +WBB...

Ap1/2 tears everyone apart.

The toughness and save areas have been covered, so I won't go after that. Obviously, I'm not a fan.

AP1 on the entire army wouldn't do. I do however like rending and/or only a -1 to the damage chart. Assault 1 is interesting too. It'd make the warrios more in line with "mini-immortals". Mini things seem to be a theme in the Necron ideas.

Also, two other things to say about this:
-What would the price be (for say a Necron Warrior)?

-And also, I would like to say, that if you did this (no 3+ on any necron, just 2W and FNP) would mean that you would have to keep track of A LOT of wounds over the game (Warriors, Immortals, Destroyers, Wraiths, ...) which is why a 3+ works better...

The real question of an armor save, is what power of weapon can the 'just shrug off'?

Can they shug off bolters? Heavy Bolters & Autocannons? Anti-tank missiles?

With a toughness upgrade, they could join the ranks of 4+ armor troops.

For something compleatly different:

Toughness 6, Wounds 1, SV -, May not take Cover Saves, FNP
(This makes them rather resistant to most weapons. Bolters need 6 to wound, Even Plasma only wounds on a 3+, and they still get FNP against Krak Missiles. Only Melta weapons, Power Fists and simmilar Str 8+ AP 2/1 weapons can take them out on a saveless 2+. It also makes any special unit with a Inv. save super-nasty.)

T6, no cover saves is interesting, I like it.

Very, very different, probably better than 2 wounds.

I haaaaaaate u!
Aren't necrons good enough as it is?
Just replace thier Come Back rule with Feel No Pain.

That would be BROKEN!!!!!!!! I SAY NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm.

KK, I'm with the whole "No AP 1" crowd, Just because it makes them the premier army for killing...any non-horde list.

I'm cool with them adding +1 to vehicle damage. I just don't like them shredding any armor in front of them, I feel Rending covers that well enough.

As to the latest stat suggestion...

lasgun in hands of imp guard: .5 hits, .083 wounds, .04 dead necrons
As opposed to (old necrons) .5 hits, .166 wounds, .11 unsaved, .055 "dead" necrons.

Bolter in hands of SM .66 hits, .11 wounds, .055
versus .66, .33, .11, .055

Intriguing. Let's fire a krak missile at them. BS 4, let's say.
.66 hits, .55 wounds, .275 dead necrons
.66 hit, .55 wounds, .55 unsaved.

I'm intrigued that the bolter was the same, but the armor piercing, We'll be back breaking krak, and the lasgun took a hit. of course, let's not forget our good friend melta
.66 hit, .55 wound, .55 dead necrons
.66 hit, .55 wound, .55 dead necrons

I like it.
I'd like to see some more work in this department.

Sorry KK, but Assault 1, S4, AP1 weapons on basic troops is a terrible idea.

What would they do against my orks? It would be a slaughter, but against space marines they'd be hugely overpowered.

Making armor useless against an entire army simply can't be balanced; they're either going to get destroyed by hordes, they're going to be incapable of losing to MEQs, or (most likely) both. Armor saves are too basic of a mechanic to be circumvented like that.

(Also, while I see your rationale for not giving the necrons armor saves, there are tons of things in the game that have armor saves without wearing armor; wraithlords/wraithguard, scarabs, talos, every type of tyranid, gun drones, etc. Also, look at how poisoned weapons affect units with high toughness, robotic or not; things swing both ways there. I don't know if necrons need to stay an MEQ, but I don't think it's unreasonable to give them an armor save to represent their metallic bodies.)

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Eight Ball wrote:oh yeah, forgot T5, but STILL, anything AP1/2 (Plasma Cannons anyone?) will tear these guys apart, and 2 wounds + no save + fnp means they are weaker than 1 wound + 3+save +WBB...

Ap1/2 tears everyone apart.

Sure does. That's why they don't hand it out that much.

Necrons should just have a 4++ invuln save and have 2 wounds and be immortal warriors. There you go. They should also be relentless.

It's tough to analyze a statline with out at least a rough point cost. What kind of price-point were you thinking KK?

I think it's over the top. I'd look at something more like:

Necron Warrior

WS3 BS3 S4 A1 T4 I2 W1 Ld 9 Sv 4+

Feel no pain
Fearless

Gauss Flayer
S4, AP4, Rapid Fire 24" range
Rending

I've thought for awhile that animated robots shouldn't have the same combat abilities as Space Marines Hurr! And, this would be accompanied by a point decrease. I get the basic reasoning behind the lack of a save, but I think that goes against too much of the general 40k gameplay to have no save. 4+ is nice, puts them between MEQs and GEQs. Cover is still important since there are a lot of AP4 weapons out there, but they're still not completely vulnerable. I don't like giving them a 24" assault weapon, that is way too powerful. Lets them just back-up away from assault elements while continuing to put out a lot of firepower.

dietrich wrote:I think it's over the top. I'd look at something more like:

Necron Warrior

WS3 BS3 S4 A1 T4 I2 W1 Ld 9 Sv 4+

Feel no pain
Fearless

Gauss Flayer
S4, AP4, Rapid Fire 24" range
Rending

I've thought for awhile that animated robots shouldn't have the same combat abilities as Space Marines Hurr! And, this would be accompanied by a point decrease. I get the basic reasoning behind the lack of a save, but I think that goes against too much of the general 40k gameplay to have no save. 4+ is nice, puts them between MEQs and GEQs. Cover is still important since there are a lot of AP4 weapons out there, but they're still not completely vulnerable. I don't like giving them a 24" assault weapon, that is way too powerful. Lets them just back-up away from assault elements while continuing to put out a lot of firepower.

I like this a lot. Maybe 2 wounds but even not that is a good stat line for robots. I think that maybe relentless on everything necron would help with shooting really. It allows a 1 shot for a 30" range.

Well there are three different stats that combine to represent a models resiliance to damage.

Toughness
Wounds
Save

So what would make the most sense for a 100% non-organic robot zombie that is missing his soul?


Toughness; This should be high, as it (to me) represents the majority of their survivability.

Wounds; I could see going up to two, but really? They are not gigantic by any stretch of the imagination, one wound would be a better representation.

Save; This one is the kicker, do necrons technically even have armor? is that 'armor' actually 'armor' or would it be toughness? I'd say their skin IS armor and it would be best represented with a 4+ inherent save.

How about: WS3 BS4 S5 T5 I2 W1 LD10 4+ save + WBB


What about a Gauss effect on vehicles that 'stacks'? Like the Talos Claws in CC. For every roll of a 6 in addition to the first 6 add +1 to the damage result or the armor penetration roll. *Shrug*

Whoops, double-tap.

I'd like Necrons with this sort of statline:

Necron WS3 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld10 Sv3+/4++ FNP Fearless

T4 W1 Sv3+/4++ is like a Rubric Marine, and FNP is for the technology bump.

WS3 I2 is because they're not super-quick for HtH work.


Gun-wise, I'd suggest:

Gauss Flayer R24" S5 AP4 Rapid-Fire Rending

Rapid-Fire 24" is standard for MEQ-types.

S5 AP4 is good enough against any non-MEQ, and Rending helps against big stuff that they don't have Specials or Heavies for.

I'd argue for the save as opposed to the toughness. They have an armored outer shell encasing all their "workings". Once you were past the armor, everything gets squishy. It just so happens they have built in repair features that can repair some pretty horrific damage.

They should have armour saves.

And they should be WS3 if not 2. It's silly that they're as good as Marines in skill with weapons in HTH.

WS3 BS4 S4 T4 (or 5) W1 I2 A1 Sv3+/4+(FNP)
Gauss Flayer
R30 S4 AP4 Assault 2/Rending

How is 24" assault weapons (which the Immortals have already) OP? With 90% of most armies lurching forward to get into assault (the 10% being Tau) I think it's a good idea.

At least the phalanx could move and still cover itself instead of having to sacrifice shooting to moving.

S4, AP4, Assault 1 - Gauss: auto wound on 6, auto glance on 6 unless can pen.

I agree with HB about the WS. There's only 3 units that use/need WS which are Pariah's, Wraiths, and flayed ones.

I'm good with the army getting FNP if we get rid of the Phase out. Of course, I would deck my warriors out with "individual equipment" and lose a model a turn . . .

And we talked through most of this HERE

Uriels_Flame wrote:I'm good with the army getting FNP if we get rid of the Phase out.

Where did we agree to dump Phase Out?

That's more characteristic of Necrons than WBB or anything else!

I like the main idea Feel no pain, fearless, etc... but AP 1! I could see AP 3... it would be neat to have an army of that, but I don't think terminators should be dropping to them

I also agree with an above poster about a special rule to give them a glancing possibility on vehicles, rather than the AP 1 itself.

Great idea

Seems awfully good....too much so.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:I'm good with the army getting FNP if we get rid of the Phase out.

Where did we agree to dump Phase Out?

That's more characteristic of Necrons than WBB or anything else!

If they got rid of WBB, phase out should go too. How else are they going to sell Pariah models unless they can figure out a way to get people to buy them.

Or make them Necrons . . . .