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High Commissar Biffsmack wrote:Actually I was more under the impression that trillions of people are in his service ten thousand years after his death because they get shot in the face if they don't...

The logic is unworkable. If no one wanted to serve the emperor, then no one would be holding the gun to shoot the dissenter. If you answer that it is all a matter of hierarchy, your argument will devolve into "A only obeys because his superior B will shoot him otherwise; B only obeys because his superior C will shoot him otherwise" and on and on until you have one person holding the entire rest of the galaxy hostage. Pretty ridiculous. The trillions serve him because they sincerely believe in him.

High Commissar Biffsmack wrote:and I wouldn't exactly call him benevolent, he does sort of consume thousands of human souls every day....

The casualties in the choir that sustains the Emperor are no different from the casualties on the battlefield. Both are necessary sacrifices for the survival of humanity as a race which, in the universe of 40k, morally trumps the value of an individual life or even ten million individual lives.

High Commissar Biffsmack wrote:and don't you think he would have gone to greater trouble to instill his Primarchs with better values if he was so caring about the human race.

The Primarchs were scattered to the wind before he could instill anything into them one way or the other. Why this happened is truly unknown. (And, no, it has not been explained in the HH series.) Are you asking why the Emperor didn't brainwash them after he found them? They were supposed to be the best of humanity on their own strengths. The fact that the Primarchs fell (IMO, as I've said, even the "loyal" ones) is because they end up just being human after all. I'm not sure how this shows that the Emperor is bad or a tyrant. To me, it shows that he has respect free will.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I think that Horus was always the first-born, the finest, the most loved and trusted. I would not say it was ultimately vanity that was his downfall (some obscure ritual and what's-his-face's lies).

If Horus was so great, why didn't he see through Lorgar's lies? The answer is simple. Horus was not so great. He was essentially vain. The entire Heresy is the result of one, ultimately arrogant question: "Why should he be the Emperor and not me?"

@Manchu: There was a lot of fluff about a conspiracy to sicken, and corrupt Horus. It is pretty clear that Lorgar was the instigator no? Was Horus being selfish, or did he believe he was doing the right thing? That humanity had to serve chaos to survive?

Also, it is written (in the archives of fluff) that the chaos spirits (it says spirits not gods) spirited the caskets with the babies in them away, though they could not break the protective wards the emperor had placed on them. So they scattered them.

To me this seems flawed. Why did they not just whisk them away and leave them in deep space, instead of on planets?

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Manchu: There was a lot of fluff about a conspiracy to sicken, and corrupt Horus. It is pretty clear that Lorgar was the instigator no? Was Horus being selfish, or did he believe he was doing the right thing? That humanity had to serve chaos to survive?

The thing about turning to evil is that no one can make you do it. If someone makes you do an evil thing, they are the ones who are evil not you. At some point, Horus stopped having an excuse. He gave into his arrogance, put aside everything but his own lust for domination, and prepared to sell the soul of humanity itself for his own glory. It was his choice.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, it is written (in the archives of fluff) that the chaos spirits (it says spirits not gods) spirited the caskets with the babies in them away, though they could not break the protective wards the emperor had placed on them. So they scattered them. To me this seems flawed. Why did they not just whisk them away and leave them in deep space, instead of on planets?

I promise you, this has never been fully answered. It probably never will be. The answer that you quote was provided by the Chaos gods themselves, through Erebus, to seduce Horus. Believe it if you want. I think its Chaos lies.

Which one is Erebus? Death Guard?

And if that is true than why did the chaos gods spare those who would continue to be loyal to the Emprah?

Russ, Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion (sort of) etc.

I agree with you though. I one point (mabye at the massacre of his bro's?) he stopped having an excuse.
The Emprah trusted Horus so much he didn't TRULY believe it until he saw Horus firsthand.

Anyway the thread post clearly said alive in the 41st millenium. Horus is long dead. Looooooooong AND deeeeaaaad.

Erebus was a Word Bearers chaplain.

Emperors Faithful wrote:And if that is true than why did the chaos gods spare those who would continue to be loyal to the Emprah?

That is a good question. At least two answers arise: (1) it is not true at all and just another corrupting lie of chaos OR (2) even Chaos gods cannot foresee all of the consequences of human free will. I think both answers are correct.

High Commissar Biffsmack wrote:

Steal it will you? well too bad! you'll never get your filthy hands on it you vile vondruke! it's mine! ALL MINE!!!

oh and yeah death and destruction can be very cool. For instance, in 40k. Hell, that's what it's all about!

Then it seems apparent we must duel for the knowledge.... have at you

Indeed that's part of what make the 40k universe what it is.

Manchu wrote:
If Horus was so great, why didn't he see through Lorgar's lies? The answer is simple. Horus was not so great. He was essentially vain. The entire Heresy is the result of one, ultimately arrogant question: "Why should he be the Emperor and not me?"

Horus was the most human of the Primarchs, he wanted to know that what he was doing was right, he confided in his closest friends, the Mournival and Erebus, and in his brothers particularly Sanguinius whom he apparently looked up to. When his father thrusted this upon him he was probably over whelmed and looked to those he could trust, one of them being Lorgar, who allowed Chaos to get to him.

...Damn it! How can chaos gods plan to manipulate the timeline if they are OUT of time? (what don't answer, the answer would be 15pages or something.)

Anyway, I think a good, decent surprise orbital bombardment would deal with the golden throne.

Or nids, but they wouldn't have a fun time doing so.

Tau would probably move him to a 'greater good: old folks home'

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Anyway the thread post clearly said alive in the 41st millenium. Horus is long dead. Looooooooong AND deeeeaaaad.

Didn't we actually just start the 42nd?

BrotherStynier wrote:Horus was the most human of the Primarchs, he wanted to know that what he was doing was right, he confided in his closest friends, the Mournival and Erebus, and in his brothers particularly Sanguinius whom he apparently looked up to. When his father thrusted this upon him he was probably over whelmed and looked to those he could trust, one of them being Lorgar, who allowed Chaos to get to him.

Thrust what upon him? The Great Crusade? He wanted the title of Warmaster. You cannot successfully present Horus as a modest and humble man at any point in his career. As to confiding in his friends, Horus stopped having friends as he fell. By a certain point he had no friends at all, only followers. The key scene of his fall, the ritual on Davin, runs parallel to the breaking of the Mourneval. I'm sorry, I see that you admire the character, but your arguments are simply not based in the storyline.

No, we just started the 41st...right? it's not called 42k. We were on the eve of the 41st millenium.

The fall of Medusa V is listed as happening 006.M42

...? But, did we just skip a whole millenium?

The BGB of 4th Ed lists the Current date as 999. M41. So no we didn't skip a millennium, the other editions covered it.

hmmm, so humanity has survived for 12,000 years after emprah?

Good job humanity!

Emperors Faithful wrote:hmmm, so humanity has survived for 12,000 years after emprah?

Barely at times but yes.

To be honest whenever I read about the horus heresy I cannot help but be reminded of book1 and 2 of the epic Paradise Lost by John Milton.

But then again every fantasy/scifi tends to end up having intentional or none intentional biblical or classical references.

A plumbing servitor, going through mellenia of routine ritual....flushes the Emporers withered husk while weilding a plunger on the backed up Golden Throne....

Now I must go convert said servitor....Im thinking like a tantacle arm for a drain snake and a power plunger on the other...

High Commissar Biffsmack wrote: And the best way to unite an empire of countless trillions is to make them unite or bombard their planet with showers of plasma globs the size of large trees!

Oh course if they don't survive, wipe the civilization out and re-settle. Isn't that was Virus Bombs were for anyways? Sometimes the only way to fix it is to flush it all away.

I would beat him out of that coma, then back into one, just to teach him a lesson for losing to Horus but somehow winning. He half assed it.

...Most definitely.

Manchu wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Horus was the most human of the Primarchs, he wanted to know that what he was doing was right, he confided in his closest friends, the Mournival and Erebus, and in his brothers particularly Sanguinius whom he apparently looked up to. When his father thrusted this upon him he was probably over whelmed and looked to those he could trust, one of them being Lorgar, who allowed Chaos to get to him.

Thrust what upon him? The Great Crusade? He wanted the title of Warmaster. You cannot successfully present Horus as a modest and humble man at any point in his career. As to confiding in his friends, Horus stopped having friends as he fell. By a certain point he had no friends at all, only followers. The key scene of his fall, the ritual on Davin, runs parallel to the breaking of the Mourneval. I'm sorry, I see that you admire the character, but your arguments are simply not based in the storyline.

Sorry I missed this last night it got lost in a discussion about whether it was M42 or not.

I remember Horus at first feeling that Sanguinius should have become the Warmaster rather than him and was conflicted over it, they say that much in the story line. I know that at a certain point he had only followers that was after his Corruption, after his brother and friend took advantage of him and offered him to the gods as their champion. This is all in the story line. Yes he was ambitious as most men are, yes eventually he embraced his title as Warmaster but he was still shaken up by his father leaving and dropping everything in his lap.

Hell he even refused to rename the Luna Wolves the Sons of Horus until his most trusted brother convinced him other wise. Up until his corruption he needed those closest to him.

I have to agree with alot of what Manchu has been saying, I mean Horus at first thought he was doing right by betraying the Emperor, but then if you notice even in the book he starts to think of himself as a King in his own right and cares only for if He is crowned the new Emperor. And as for the Chaos Gods scattering the Primarches instead of killing them ive thought on this and I think its pretty good, Who could get close enough to kill the Emperor then his most beloved son, even when his treachery was out in the open at the Final battle The Emperor hesitated to kill Horus which got him crippled.

So the Chaos Gods sent them away to be raised as future warriors for there plans to strike at The Emperor and try to have Man fall, it was win, win for Chaos once Horus was turned. Either they won the Galaxy outright that day, or The Emperor would be crippled and The Imperium would slowly decline(perhaps. But of Course in the end it was all the Primarches free will that they betrayed the Emperor, but there time away from him were influenced by chaos.

Manchu wrote:I'm not so sure that the Emperor's benevolence is his one weakness. Why he even allowed things to unfold as they did, assuming he is/was truly as powerful as the fluff makes him out to be, is mysterious.

I personally believe that he allowed these events to unfold because he expected to be killed outright by Horus and take the chaos gods with him as he did. Notice he tried talking Horus out of it, baiting and letting him get closer and closer to killing him before vaporizing his soul. I believe he planned to suicide and take down the chaos gods with him as he did, he put everything into that blast and it would have all went back on them, doing fatal or at the very least, severe damage.

Then he would have been reborn again and the universe would have been without the Chaos gods until a time that they themselves were reborn.

Manchu wrote:But I think that it has something to do with his love for humanity in general and the Primarchs in particular. Most of the Primarch, IMO, are total losers because they do not share this quality with their father. I'm not just talking about the traitors here (who are without exception all total losers). Guilliman and Dorn, for all their righteousness, are just priggish stiffs. It's not clear whether they protect humanity for humanity's sake or out of (1) pride for Roboute and (2) thoughtless, Nazi-like loyalty for Rogal. No need to even talk about the likes of Lion El'Jonson (Thundercats! HO!) The Primarch that comes closest to the Emperor, if not in power or knowledge but rather in sincerity and concern for humanity, is the Wolf King. Also unlike many the others, Russ clearly never saw himself as a copy or possible stand-in/replacement for the Emperor. In sum, most of the Primarchs--including the tremendously vain Horus--lacked the Emperor's greatest strength: the real love and benevolence toward humanity that could unite trillions of people into his service even ten thousand years after his "death."

What about Sanguinius? He had great love for his father, and in turn he fought for the people of the Imperium tirelessly. He was very compassionate and also a fearsome and ferocious warrior. He is also the second most beloved figure by the people of the Imperium, second only to the Emperor himself.

combo wrote:at this point in time anyone, just pull him of life support.

IMHO that would save the Emperor not destroy him.

Lord Chiasson wrote:

So the Chaos Gods sent them away to be raised as future warriors for there plans to strike at The Emperor and try to have Man fall, it was win, win for Chaos once Horus was turned. Either they won the Galaxy outright that day, or The Emperor would be crippled and The Imperium would slowly decline(perhaps. But of Course in the end it was all the Primarches free will that they betrayed the Emperor, but there time away from him were influenced by chaos.

Now that doesn't make sense. Horus was the one to the Emperor, yes? But Horus was the FIRST primarch found. He was the closest one to Terra, on a neighboring planet. So the Emperor had a lot of time to make an impression on his son. I don't think that scattering them had much to do with twisting thier loyalties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also are we including the Custodian Guards and Palace? Cuase that would mean that all posts of 'pulling the plug' would be stuffed.

hmmmmmm my bet would go on zogwort turnign the emperor into a squig

This is in response to the following
"The Primarch that comes closest to the Emperor, if not in power or knowledge but rather in sincerity and concern for humanity, is the Wolf King. Also unlike many the others, Russ clearly never saw himself as a copy or possible stand-in/replacement for the Emperor. In sum, most of the Primarchs--including the tremendously vain Horus--lacked the Emperor's greatest strength: the real love and benevolence toward humanity that could unite trillions of people into his service even ten thousand years after his "death."


I am sorry, but there is simply no way Russ can be considered the closest to the Emperor in terms of love for humanity. The Russ had a lot of positive qualities, and I am not trying to start some kind of "war" here but respect for humanity and human life in general is Vulkan's trait and it is noted in almost every single piece of fluff regarding him or his chapter. Russ had a lot of qualities, but in terms of respect for humans it was Vulkan's cause and it is continued by the Salamanders.

Jungle0731 wrote:
I am sorry, but there is simply no way Russ can be considered the closest to the Emperor in terms of love for humanity. The Russ had a lot of positive qualities, and I am not trying to start some kind of "war" here but respect for humanity and human life in general is Vulkan's trait and it is noted in almost every single piece of fluff regarding him or his chapter. Russ had a lot of qualities, but in terms of respect for humans it was Vulkan's cause and it is continued by the Salamanders.

Wasn't that the whole reason Vulkan bowed to him? Because in the competition the Emperor threw his Fire Drake, which was larger that the one Vulkan killed, into lava so he could save Vulkan from falling. So when they got back to town and the people bowed to Vulkan he swore fealty to the Emperor anyway because he was willing to serve someone who would cast aside victory to save a life?

Yes!

Amen! All hail the Emperor! A warrior, a humanitatian but most importantly a slamander poacher!