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Danny Internets wrote:

On another topic, though, I think a seer council has decent odds if Big D is silly enough to take the charge. Hit on 4's, wound on 2's, Deceiver 4+'s the save. So, every 5 attacks does a wound? Seems like 3 wounds wouldn't be out of character, his counter kills 1 warlock, and the farseer. Next round they kill him and lose another 2-3? bad trade points-wise, but I'd do it if I was an Eldar. Getting D off the table is a big deal.

The odds of killing the Deceiver are good, but he loses his only Farseer, leaving the Council dead in the water without Fortune. He'd have been better off going for the Monoliths, or skirting around the flanks picking off units outside of Deceiver counter-charge range. He also could have used them to go after the Warriors after they came in from reserve.

It just seems like every target except the Deceiver would have been a good one.

Why is his farseer even in combat, he should be able to wrap around the deceaver with bikes so that his farseer doesn't see combat. (Assuming other units don't add on)

Primarch wrote:Umm, Melta guns are your answer to Monoliths? How much do you play again? If thats your strat, then go buy some Missle Launchers and stay far away from them and shoot them that way. I know the MG gets a bonus on the chart, but you still need 6s after hitting for anything to happen.



Clay

Not my answer just an example of one of the many things guard have that can kill monos. Sure monos are really hard to pop with melta guns but when you have 15 or so of them + str10 pie plates you should be able to pop 1-2 of them which will break the back of the necron army.

A MG needs a 6 to glance and a 6 to destroy the 'lith. (No extra D6 for 1/2 range because of living metal.)

Your odds of doing that AFTER getting a hit are 2.7%

I would love for you to shoot meltas at my liths.

SsevenN wrote:A MG needs a 6 to glance and a 6 to destroy the 'lith. (No extra D6 for 1/2 range because of living metal.)

Your odds of doing that AFTER getting a hit are 2.7%

I would love for you to shoot meltas at my liths.

I know that lol but 6 and 6 again is not impossible when your rolling 9+ dice, + its not like thats the only thing a guard army has.

Never tell me the odds, math hammer is nice to have but it does not win you games. If there is nothing else worth firing at (and there won't be if theres just 3 monos on the table) then theres nothing wrong with spamimg meltas at them

Ur in melta range by turn 2-3 at the latest, and all your str 10 guns, ordance blast weps are still pounding away at the monos, sure the deceiver is scary but if U never charge him and block him with cheep chims you can limit what he can do.

I get what you are saying, but you are sharing tactics in an open form that just aren't that strong.

you need 37 melta gun HITS to have any guranteed results, counting on fluky luck shots might be your style, but it's not good advice.

C'tan ignore all terrain and models when they move, you can't box him in with anything short of 12 tanks touching shoulder to shoulder in a 2 layered hexagon. (of course they can't end their movement IN something)

SsevenN wrote:Please do try.

it's NOT easy with a list played this way.

It was a joke in response to 40ke's "At least it wasn't 'Ignore the Monoliths, go for phaseout', which may be the #1 internet Necron meme."


Really, I think the biggest problem is that so many people play Necrons badly that people assume the strategy that worked on Necron player #27 will work on all necrons everywhere. Sorry, but it's just not the case. The difference in playing a real Necron player vs. a scrubby one is that of night and day.

Ive noticed a trend. The guys who play against good Necron lists, with good players fielding them, and the actual Necron players themselves with the good lists think this list is pretty solid. The guys who have never played against it, and just want to theory it to death are the naysayers....

Anyone else notice this trend?



Clay

@ player-a, Primarch; I'm glad we agree.

Yeah no one here is saying Necrons are the best, IMHO they are still "tier 3" whatever that tells you.

But the fact is there are strong ways to play them in 5th and it doesn't involve the "you need more warriors for phase-out, and where are your res orbs and VoS?" non-sense.

Why is his farseer even in combat, he should be able to wrap around the deceaver with bikes so that his farseer doesn't see combat. (Assuming other units don't add on)

Yeah that's a good point--I'm not used to HQ units not wanting to get in combat but there's really no reason to let the Farseer attack (or get attacked). He only has to move first during pile-in and defenders react moves.

Krootman wrote:

SsevenN wrote:A MG needs a 6 to glance and a 6 to destroy the 'lith. (No extra D6 for 1/2 range because of living metal.)

Your odds of doing that AFTER getting a hit are 2.7%

I would love for you to shoot meltas at my liths.

I know that lol but 6 and 6 again is not impossible when your rolling 9+ dice, + its not like thats the only thing a guard army has.

Never tell me the odds, math hammer is nice to have but it does not win you games. If there is nothing else worth firing at (and there won't be if theres just 3 monos on the table) then theres nothing wrong with spamimg meltas at them

10man Vet Squad, 3 Meltaguns, Demolitions, Vendetta- 260 points. You have 3 Str 9 TL shots, 3 Str 8 shots, and 10 str8 attacks needing 4+ (if you moved) attacks in assault. And that is just one unit. I would be running 3 such units... I'm quite sure I can pop 1 per turn, possibly more.

Paquito, keep in mind that those meltabombs are not AP 1 and therefore cannot ever kill a Monolith.

With 9 TL lascannons + 9 meltagun shots per turn (from the 3 units and their Vendettas) you only have a 54% chance of killing a Monolith per turn.

Ahh, your right. Still though, thats alot of fire power. Moving my Company command squad near, and TL the meltas, aswell as the 4 meltas in his unit if needbe. Like I said, I think 1 10man squad would be enough to pop a mono a turn, and 4 of my 5 troop choices are built that way. This is not counting, Pask in a Vanquisher, or my CCS.

I always enjoy a good Necron victory over the lesser races. Keep up the good work.

Also, Monoliths are tough as feth to get rid of, every turn you pump your 4 meltas, 3 lascannons, blah blah into the 'lith, there's still those 5-15 destroyers (depending on the list) who rape Chimeras and eat veterans for afters

Nice job! Ignore the nay sayers and theory mongers, you won and are going to the semi finals! Proof in and of itself that you played your list right, and that the list is a decent one at worst, and solid at best.

Again, congrats, and nice bat rep!

What is a good target priority against this list then? I play biker marines, but there has to be a general kill order to weaken this list to the point of having a chance against it.

If I was to play daemons against this list I would deep strike all my first wave around the Monoliths to shut down pulling units out of close combat. The Warriors and Immortals won't be able to outrun the second wave. If you can take down one or two Monoliths by the fourth turn it will strain the rest of the army. Skulltaker can take out the Deceiver.

My Grey Knights wouldn't stand a chance but I think battle sisters would have good odds with the Exorcists versus the Monoliths. Even if you just immobilize them it hurts. Generic Space Marines can pack enough heat to hurt the Monoliths... Guard can as well. Tyranids I don't know... All you can do is glance them.

Honestly I don't see dark eldar or eldar having anything that strong against this list. I would to see how orks fare. Tau with the right build could be frightening.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:If I was to play daemons against this list I would deep strike all my first wave around the Monoliths to shut down pulling units out of close combat.

Heh.

If I was to play daemons against this list I would deep strike all my first wave around the Monoliths to shut down pulling units out of close combat. The Warriors and Immortals won't be able to outrun the second wave. If you can take down one or two Monoliths by the fourth turn it will strain the rest of the army. Skulltaker can take out the Deceiver.

You make it sound so easy. Believe me, its been tried. Beating this list is not as easy as you think. If skulltaker can kill the deceiver, then the deceiver would just leave combat and kill other stuff. And do you realize the amount of walling you can do with 3 monoliths? Even with deepstriking daemons, you would not have an easy time against this. Especially not when playing someone who knows how to play well.

Ive noticed a trend. The guys who play against good Necron lists, with good players fielding them, and the actual Necron players themselves with the good lists think this list is pretty solid. The guys who have never played against it, and just want to theory it to death are the naysayers....

Anyone else notice this trend?



Clay

I second that.

Do you realize that each Blood Crusher is on a dreadnaught sized base? If there is a swarm of daemons spread out such that big D cannot be more than one inch away when he tries to misdirect he is dead. This army has real problems with daemons. Big D is not really a threat.

SsevenN wrote:

Ur in melta range by turn 2-3 at the latest, and all your str 10 guns, ordance blast weps are still pounding away at the monos, sure the deceiver is scary but if U never charge him and block him with cheep chims you can limit what he can do.

I get what you are saying, but you are sharing tactics in an open form that just aren't that strong.

you need 37 melta gun HITS to have any guranteed results, counting on fluky luck shots might be your style, but it's not good advice.

C'tan ignore all terrain and models when they move, you can't box him in with anything short of 12 tanks touching shoulder to shoulder in a 2 layered hexagon. (of course they can't end their movement IN something)

Yea your right but it is possible to block him in with a few chimas. All im saying about the melta guns is its good advice if theres nothing else worth firing on and its not likely he will melta the deceaver to death so id rather take my chance on a mono.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Do you realize that each Blood Crusher is on a dreadnaught sized base? If there is a swarm of daemons spread out such that big D cannot be more than one inch away when he tries to misdirect he is dead. This army has real problems with daemons. Big D is not really a threat.

Untrue. Misdirect is done by making a "fall back" move in the direction of your choice.

Read the "fall back" rules in the BRB, you IGNORE the units you were engaged in CC for the turn of the misdirect AND C'tan ignore all models and terrain for movement purposes. Big D will escape combat, I've misdirected out of 30 man ork mobs multiple times with no trouble.

I played against Kairos crushers list (Kairos, GUO, 3 units of 6 crushers, 3 flying DP of nurgle, troops for taking objectives), in a practice game. It was a grotesque slaughter.

We rolled mission 2, the KP one.

Everyone who scattered away from Kairos died to massed destroyer fire. Kairos got punched by the Deceiver after he misdirected through the daemons. The star god then went on to kill one of the Blood Crusher squads. The only reason there was any drama in the game at all was the DP's, one of whom got over the liths and into my backfield. I also got careless and sacrificed one of my warrior squads to the bloodcrushers for no particular reason.

Final score was:
Necrons kill:
GUO (deep strike mishap)
Kairos (facepunch)
Unit of crushers (Destroyer + Lith)
Unit of crushers (Deceiver)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + Lith)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + warriors + Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Pink Horrors (Liths)

For a total of 23

Daemons killed:
1 unit of warriors (crushers)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
They also killed a few immortals, but the unit didn't break and they got lithed out
For a total of 5 KP

Not saying I've got the ultimate answer to Daemons, but their inability to destroy the Monoliths with anything but Soul Grinders (which monoliths + Necron shooting wrecks right back) makes it a game I'm confident about.

I agree with the general nature of the posts to this board. Many people have never played necrons before. Those that have likely haven't played good players. Of course, just in case they have, I play with units normally considered "bad" because of the psychological factor of facing something unknown.

Yes, the big D gets to run away unscathed.

Meltas have a very short range and anything that close is not going to last if the necron player knows anything about prioritization. In most of my games, in fact, most meltas aren't allowed to fire because they are the cheapest thing that can ID warriors.

Anyone who says that warriors are needed to bump up the phase out number is wrong. Warriors are good at two things: charging seer councils on jetbikes from reserves, and dying.

Anyone who says, "shoot the warriors, go for phase out" hasn't played a good necron player. It's quite hard, in my experience, to target units out of LoS and/or not on the table.

Anyone who says "I play more than 20 warriors" or "I deep strike monoiths" is very likely not an experienced necron player.

All that said, it is really frustrating only being able to ever cap 2 objectives. Even if we massacre every round, an ork player doing the same thing will get mundo mission bonus points because of the size and number of his troops squads.

My seven cents.

40kenthusiast wrote:I played against Kairos crushers list (Kairos, GUO, 3 units of 6 crushers, 3 flying DP of nurgle, troops for taking objectives), in a practice game. It was a grotesque slaughter.

We rolled mission 2, the KP one.

Everyone who scattered away from Kairos died to massed destroyer fire. Kairos got punched by the Deceiver after he misdirected through the daemons. The star god then went on to kill one of the Blood Crusher squads. The only reason there was any drama in the game at all was the DP's, one of whom got over the liths and into my backfield. I also got careless and sacrificed one of my warrior squads to the bloodcrushers for no particular reason.

Final score was:
Necrons kill:
GUO (deep strike mishap)
Kairos (facepunch)
Unit of crushers (Destroyer + Lith)
Unit of crushers (Deceiver)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + Lith)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + warriors + Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Pink Horrors (Liths)

For a total of 23

Daemons killed:
1 unit of warriors (crushers)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
They also killed a few immortals, but the unit didn't break and they got lithed out
For a total of 5 KP

Not saying I've got the ultimate answer to Daemons, but their inability to destroy the Monoliths with anything but Soul Grinders (which monoliths + Necron shooting wrecks right back) makes it a game I'm confident about.

Yeah 40KE I do well against a fateweaver/flamer, triple DP list w/ my 'crons, this demon list looks more tuned, and it also looks like a good win.

Facepunched.....Ha!

I barely eeked out a win very against a list very similiar to this in the third round with my dark eldar. Being completely unable to kill a monolith makes it a daunting matchup. It was made worse when my big first turn assault fell short an inch or so and cost me 2 squads of wyches and my archon..... I only won by playing to the mission and by making alot of sacrifices to get on the objectives and keep him off......

Dark Eldar are no joke. Never faced em with this list, but it seems like 5th edition would really hurt them. I guess I'd just drive Liths + Deceiver onto their objectives, shoot gauss at the vehicles and keep a weather eye on the witch charge lanes. Seems like 5th edition's no massacre into combat would make that sort of thing much less scary as long as I could prevent multi-charges. Don't know how it would go, can't see the DE half of the game in my mind.

SsevenN wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Do you realize that each Blood Crusher is on a dreadnaught sized base? If there is a swarm of daemons spread out such that big D cannot be more than one inch away when he tries to misdirect he is dead. This army has real problems with daemons. Big D is not really a threat.

Untrue. Misdirect is done by making a "fall back" move in the direction of your choice.

Read the "fall back" rules in the BRB, you IGNORE the units you were engaged in CC for the turn of the misdirect AND C'tan ignore all models and terrain for movement purposes. Big D will escape combat, I've misdirected out of 30 man ork mobs multiple times with no trouble.

Sorry if you can't place the model at least one inch away from enemy units Big D is dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It sounds like your opponent is not a good player when it comes to daemons.

40kenthusiast wrote:I played against Kairos crushers list (Kairos, GUO, 3 units of 6 crushers, 3 flying DP of nurgle, troops for taking objectives), in a practice game. It was a grotesque slaughter.

We rolled mission 2, the KP one.

Everyone who scattered away from Kairos died to massed destroyer fire. Kairos got punched by the Deceiver after he misdirected through the daemons. The star god then went on to kill one of the Blood Crusher squads. The only reason there was any drama in the game at all was the DP's, one of whom got over the liths and into my backfield. I also got careless and sacrificed one of my warrior squads to the bloodcrushers for no particular reason.

Final score was:
Necrons kill:
GUO (deep strike mishap)
Kairos (facepunch)
Unit of crushers (Destroyer + Lith)
Unit of crushers (Deceiver)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + Lith)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + warriors + Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Pink Horrors (Liths)

For a total of 23

Daemons killed:
1 unit of warriors (crushers)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
They also killed a few immortals, but the unit didn't break and they got lithed out
For a total of 5 KP

Not saying I've got the ultimate answer to Daemons, but their inability to destroy the Monoliths with anything but Soul Grinders (which monoliths + Necron shooting wrecks right back) makes it a game I'm confident about.

Sorry if you can't place the model at least one inch away from enemy units Big D is dead

Whatever, if you think it's easy to do, then do it.

The combined experience of ALL my opponents says it's not.

Check the Trapped rules in the rulebook. If you fallback and cannot be more than one inch away the unit is dead. It has been discussed in YMDC before if that makes you feel any better.

I have. The trapped rule specificaly EXCLUDES the unit that was engaged in CC with the falling back unit. As in that unit cannot 'trap' the falling back unit. The BRB SPECIFICALLY says that the previously engaged unit has 'missed their chance'.

OTHER units can trap big d but he falls back in any direction he chooses, and his average fall back will be 7" which means you would need to pack an entire 14" diameter bubble with units that were NOT engaged in CC with big D the turn he misdirects.

Good luck

Like a lot of things in life, it's a lot easier to say than to do. It's easy to say, "Phase out the Necrons", but it's harder to do than that. For some armies, that's the best option - to go for Phase Out - because they can't deal with the liths or Stargod.