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40kenthusiast wrote:Well, imagine you are playing a fairly typical list, you've got say X heavy weapons.

You can shoot them at the Deceiver for every 6 SM heavy weapons you shoot at him you should get a wound on him.
You can shoot them at a Monolith, by and large, 6 will give you a roll on the table, most likely a glance.
You can shoot them at Destroyers/Immortals/Warriors in cover, 6 will hit 4 times, wound 4 times (rounded), 2 will make cover saves, one will get up.

Most people prefer to shoot their weapons at Monoliths/The Deceiver, particularly as the crons can go through a lith if they are dealing damage.

Truthfully, the only way to Phase Out Necrons is in assault, or if they get unlucky with morale. I don't do CC, just move/port away while pouring on the fire, Deceiver plays goalie.

EDIT: An exception to the above may be the new IG codex. I haven't battled it yet, but my theoryhammer says they may be able to shoot the crons straight off the board. Key to a battle with them, I think, would be hiding my guys behind the Monoliths. I'm hoping to battle a good IG list in round 2, find out how that goes.

Well, let's start saying that playing on hard boyz math’s... any typical list will sport an X amount of heavy weapons much higher than the 6 you suggest.... and many of those weapons will outrange anything the monolith can shoot back at them...

I would have been happy if paired against your list using just Grey Knights... at 2500 point I can field enough twin linked lasscannons to pop/immobilize/weapon destroy a Lith each turn... and I can add something like a 10/12 psicannons to get rid of The Deceiver (no saves for him) in one turn or focus fire in your toughness 5 models... all this playing at max range to exploit the veil and the short range of necron weaponry...

You are not taking into account Destroyers. They can move 12" and shoot 36" for an effective range of 48".

You hear that player A? a good player will never let PBs strike in CC against BigD ....

Afrikan Blonde wrote:You are not taking into account Destroyers. They can move 12" and shoot 36" for an effective range of 48".

Once disposed of the liths and Deceiver, 15 destroyers play a losing game against 12 psicannons (6 GK or GKT squads) and 6 lasscannons (3 land raiders) I may lose half my models, but still will come out on top...

You are the man!

santanero wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:Well, imagine you are playing a fairly typical list, you've got say X heavy weapons.

You can shoot them at the Deceiver for every 6 SM heavy weapons you shoot at him you should get a wound on him.
You can shoot them at a Monolith, by and large, 6 will give you a roll on the table, most likely a glance.
You can shoot them at Destroyers/Immortals/Warriors in cover, 6 will hit 4 times, wound 4 times (rounded), 2 will make cover saves, one will get up.

Most people prefer to shoot their weapons at Monoliths/The Deceiver, particularly as the crons can go through a lith if they are dealing damage.

Truthfully, the only way to Phase Out Necrons is in assault, or if they get unlucky with morale. I don't do CC, just move/port away while pouring on the fire, Deceiver plays goalie.

EDIT: An exception to the above may be the new IG codex. I haven't battled it yet, but my theoryhammer says they may be able to shoot the crons straight off the board. Key to a battle with them, I think, would be hiding my guys behind the Monoliths. I'm hoping to battle a good IG list in round 2, find out how that goes.

Well, let's start saying that playing on hard boyz math’s... any typical list will sport an X amount of heavy weapons much higher than the 6 you suggest.... and many of those weapons will outrange anything the monolith can shoot back at them...

I would have been happy if paired against your list using just Grey Knights... at 2500 point I can field enough twin linked lasscannons to pop/immobilize/weapon destroy a Lith each turn... and I can add something like a 10/12 psicannons to get rid of The Deceiver (no saves for him) in one turn or focus fire in your toughness 5 models... all this playing at max range to exploit the veil and the short range of necron weaponry...

I'm not sure I follow this math.

Assuming you have 12 twin linked las-cannons, you should get right at one meaningful result on the damage table in a turn of firing; wrecked or immobilized. The weapon destroyed really doesn't matter that much. The following turn, those threats are going to receive a lot of gauss-glance effects that should shake/stun/weapon destroy those vehicles enough that it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to repeat this feat on the following turn. For example, if I use gauss weapons to only shake/stun half of your vehicles, it is unlikely that the remaining las-cannons firing will have even a single meaningful result on the following turn. The monoliths are each more resilient than any of your land raiders, and there are more weapons in the Necron army that can hurt a land raider than there are weapons in a Grey Knights list that can hurt a monolith.

Now, I'm not saying that Grey Knights can't beat Necrons. I'm just trying to figure how you expect the las-cannons you field to effectively eliminate a monolith each turn. I understand that you can get lucky, but you can also get unlucky. For every time that you fire a single las-cannon and pen-destroy a monolith, there is going to be the time that you fire every las-cannon in your army at them for two consecutive turns and do nothing. It's silly to plan on consistently performing better than the odds as a basis for how one expects to beat an opponent.

Saldiven wrote:

santanero wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:Well, imagine you are playing a fairly typical list, you've got say X heavy weapons.

You can shoot them at the Deceiver for every 6 SM heavy weapons you shoot at him you should get a wound on him.
You can shoot them at a Monolith, by and large, 6 will give you a roll on the table, most likely a glance.
You can shoot them at Destroyers/Immortals/Warriors in cover, 6 will hit 4 times, wound 4 times (rounded), 2 will make cover saves, one will get up.

Most people prefer to shoot their weapons at Monoliths/The Deceiver, particularly as the crons can go through a lith if they are dealing damage.

Truthfully, the only way to Phase Out Necrons is in assault, or if they get unlucky with morale. I don't do CC, just move/port away while pouring on the fire, Deceiver plays goalie.

EDIT: An exception to the above may be the new IG codex. I haven't battled it yet, but my theoryhammer says they may be able to shoot the crons straight off the board. Key to a battle with them, I think, would be hiding my guys behind the Monoliths. I'm hoping to battle a good IG list in round 2, find out how that goes.

Well, let's start saying that playing on hard boyz math’s... any typical list will sport an X amount of heavy weapons much higher than the 6 you suggest.... and many of those weapons will outrange anything the monolith can shoot back at them...

I would have been happy if paired against your list using just Grey Knights... at 2500 point I can field enough twin linked lasscannons to pop/immobilize/weapon destroy a Lith each turn... and I can add something like a 10/12 psicannons to get rid of The Deceiver (no saves for him) in one turn or focus fire in your toughness 5 models... all this playing at max range to exploit the veil and the short range of necron weaponry...

I'm not sure I follow this math.

Assuming you have 12 twin linked las-cannons, you should get right at one meaningful result on the damage table in a turn of firing; wrecked or immobilized. The weapon destroyed really doesn't matter that much. The following turn, those threats are going to receive a lot of gauss-glance effects that should shake/stun/weapon destroy those vehicles enough that it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to repeat this feat on the following turn. For example, if I use gauss weapons to only shake/stun half of your vehicles, it is unlikely that the remaining las-cannons firing will have even a single meaningful result on the following turn. The monoliths are each more resilient than any of your land raiders, and there are more weapons in the Necron army that can hurt a land raider than there are weapons in a Grey Knights list that can hurt a monolith.

Now, I'm not saying that Grey Knights can't beat Necrons. I'm just trying to figure how you expect the las-cannons you field to effectively eliminate a monolith each turn. I understand that you can get lucky, but you can also get unlucky. For every time that you fire a single las-cannon and pen-destroy a monolith, there is going to be the time that you fire every las-cannon in your army at them for two consecutive turns and do nothing. It's silly to plan on consistently performing better than the odds as a basis for how one expects to beat an opponent.

I think the math is easy to follow...

-Land Raiders lasscannons outrange Monoliths weapons and most of other available gauss weaponry...
-3 land raiders shooting will average a glance and a pen each turn... that's average...
-At range, only necron destroyers can retaliate, but then they are not firing at my GK or GKT... so the land raiders fulfill their "fire magnet" role and next turn al psicannon fire will concentrate on those destroyers
-It doesn't matter how much glances those destroyers made, Machine Spirit and cheap extra armor guarantee the land raider move (out of whip range) and shoot each turn

That is just considering 3 Land Raiders... (and a lot GK a GKT).... that could be multiplied at 2500 points using steelek daemon hunters land raider spam... If I remember correctly he used 7...

Hope my view is clearer now...

What if your opponent decides to deep strike the Monoliths?

Good Job 40kenthusiast!!

I've loved Necrons for years. I've always wondered why more people don't play them with Monoliths, WBB, and the Gauss rules.

How would you counter 4 battlewagons with deffrollas, Biker Boss, Biker Nobz, and Big Mek with KFF assuming they would go after your monoliths?

By the way, a 2 monolith/Nightbringer list won the Greenville, SC event.

Must be something in the water down South. Well, that and 40kE and the Greenville winner are two of the best players I've faced. Which I guess helps.

Big question is whether BW's can deff rolla liths. If they can't, I can ignore them and just use the liths to keep them back. Otherwise they need gaussing.

@Pipe:

Short version of this answer is that that faq decision decides the game.

In any case, the deployment is straightforward. Liths in a line, with gaps for Destroyers peep out. Destroyer hiding from Lootas behind the Liths, ready to countercharge if they get popped by a Klaw. Warriors hiding in reserve. Walk on far from excitement if I'm losing, close up for rapid fire if I'm doing alright and phase out isn't a danger.

Shoot pwhips at Biker Nobs, Deceiver also targets this unit with Deceive. If BW are allowed to Deff Rolla the liths, destroyers fire on them, try and get some immobilizes through the KFF. Not much hope there. Otherwise they concentrate fire on the Biker Nobs.

If the BW can't damage vehicles, its a done game. After they krump one lith (if they do) the Deceiver annihilates the Nob Bikers, remaining Liths hold back the Orks for gaussing, spam templates.

If the BW can damage vehicles, them ramming the lith wall will be the deciding point of the game. They'll likely bust through, particularly with boarding plans or just disembarking to charge with Pfists. Once they bust through the Phase Out express is pulling in. 2-3 rounds later the game will end with an Ork massacre.

@:Uber: Thanks man! Have we played?

Yeah, as a daemon player, I actually don't like my match up against a multi-monolith army. Especially once you start using c'tan and then like.

If the necron player plays poorly with their positioning I can probably win, but a good necron player is dangerous.

Clay Williams wrote:You hear that player A? a good player will never let PBs strike in CC against BigD ....

Yeah, I'm a scrub :(

that actually still gets brought up from time to time. Player A has taken savage glee in utterly abusing every Nurgle Daemon list he's come across since, but its definitely one for the books. Its more or less my counterpoint to his pointing out that I was last in the invitational.

Our store in MN has always allowed Deffrollas. Sounds like a lot of others did/will for 'Ard Boyz. You certainly know what you're doing so I wouldn't worry about them too much. Just make sure to send a lot against the WarBoss, he's T5 so Str 9 won't insta kill him like Nob Bikers, and his PK is Str 10. With the exception of Lootas you'll outrange most ork shooting.

@40kE - A couple times in Gastonia. Most notably that "fun"mission where my IG deployed 24" from your Necrons and you got first turn. Hilarity ensued.

Guys srsly ignore the monoliths and just phase him out.


*laughing*


I don't fall onto the bandwagon of "oh noes, Necrons suck." I think that a multi-monolith army (deep striking in particular) is hell to deal with. Good to see another necron win.

So who here seriously thinks Necrons are a contender this year?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So who here seriously thinks Necrons are a contender this year?

Well you never know, alot of bad players got threw the first round im sure so if a good player playing necrons gets the right matchups they could make it to the finals.......and once at the finals all they have to do is convince the judge necrons get wbb twice and monos can move 24 inches and they got it! I mean if a daemon player can convince a judge that they all come down 1st turn then anything is possible!!!11111111

santanero wrote:

I think the math is easy to follow...

-Land Raiders lasscannons outrange Monoliths weapons and most of other available gauss weaponry...
-3 land raiders shooting will average a glance and a pen each turn... that's average...
-At range, only necron destroyers can retaliate, but then they are not firing at my GK or GKT... so the land raiders fulfill their "fire magnet" role and next turn al psicannon fire will concentrate on those destroyers
-It doesn't matter how much glances those destroyers made, Machine Spirit and cheap extra armor guarantee the land raider move (out of whip range) and shoot each turn

That is just considering 3 Land Raiders... (and a lot GK a GKT).... that could be multiplied at 2500 points using steelek daemon hunters land raider spam... If I remember correctly he used 7...

Hope my view is clearer now...

Actually, it's not easy to follow. I did the actual statistical math for having six land raiders each armed with 2 twin linked las-cannons firing each turn. You statistically should either immobilize or destroy one monolith with 6 land raiders firing a dozen twin linked las-cannons. A round of shooting by the necron list in this thread against 6 land raiders should, statistically reduce the next turn's firing to 6-8 twin linked las-cannons, which should do one effective thing to a monolith over the next two turns.

Once again, I'm not saying that Grey Knights can't win. I am saying that you're over-estimating the effect that those land raiders will have. Also consider the fact that you'd be dedicating approximately 60% of your army's points to address approximately 28% of your opponents, with a legitimate chance to actually eliminate 9% of that force.

You further go on to discuss dedicating all your psy-cannons towards eliminating the Deceiver. That would result in 100% (give or take) of your force dedicated to addressing approximately 40% of your opponent's force for the first 2-3 turns, minimum (assuming Monoliths never get a cover save, the Deceiver usually gets a cover save, and none of your las-cannons or psy-cannons are taken out of action during that time).

While that may work, I do not know for sure if that is the best approach. Like I said, while you may get luckier than average, you might also get unluckier than average...that's why it's called the average. My assumptions are all based on averages.

Krootman wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So who here seriously thinks Necrons are a contender this year?

Well you never know, alot of bad players got threw the first round im sure so if a good player playing necrons gets the right matchups they could make it to the finals.......and once at the finals all they have to do is convince the judge necrons get wbb twice and monos can move 24 inches and they got it! I mean if a daemon player can convince a judge that they all come down 1st turn then anything is possible!!!11111111

Well, you never know what's going to happen in a tournament setting. Last year I faced a Necron gun line (1 Monolith, Deceiver, and a whole lot of shooting) with an early rendition of my then incomplete Green Tide, final matchup of round 2. Dawn of war, capture and control, with kill points modifiers if I remember correctly. And of course we were put on a table with sparse terrain, and my opponent (a local) was backed up by the TO in that they had a house rule of scattering all terrain pieces, think it was 3d6", which of course all scattered back towards his table edge. Needless to say, the Tide didn't fare too well, although with him being unable to advance without giving himself up to close combat (Monolith came down earlier than he had hoped), he couldn't contest my objective, so he was held to a minor victory. This matchup sent neither of us on our way to the finals, but could have allowed either of us to place had we fared better against another opponent. Necrons are a beast to beat for several lists when the conditions are right, and with this many players spread around the nation, you can never be so sure that somebody won't just get that perfect set of matchups.

ubermosher wrote:By the way, a 2 monolith/Nightbringer list won the Greenville, SC event.

Must be something in the water down South. Well, that and 40kE and the Greenville winner are two of the best players I've faced. Which I guess helps.

Are you talking about the event at Borderlands? If so, who won? I probably know him.

Player-A wrote:

Clay Williams wrote:You hear that player A? a good player will never let PBs strike in CC against BigD ....

Yeah, I'm a scrub :(

You know that wasn't directed at you Brian. It was an in general statement. I'm guessing you don't let big D play with any more Plaguebearers right?






Clay

It wasnt a general statement and it was directed at Brian =)

I've known Brian and Walt for for a year or more now. But I have only had the pleasure of playing Brian once with my nyds in 4th edition.

So is anyone willing to make a bet Necrons will win it all with only two troop choices?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So is anyone willing to make a bet Necrons will win it all with only two troop choices?

Why would you think any one promoting this list would take that bet?

NO ONE, NOT *ONE* of us is saying that 'Crons are the best army.

We are saying that this is how you play 'Crons in 5th if you want any level of success.

There are so many other competitive lists being played by truely skilled gamers, compared to say, ONE skilled necron player that I know of using a good Min/Maxed 'Ard Boyz list, Even IF this list could go all the way, which I think it can, but don't think it will, it would be a bad bet to take.

The fact is there are stronger builds out there, and MANY more of them being played in 'Ard Boyz compared to the fraction of a percent of competitive 'Cron players.

Clay Williams wrote:It wasnt a general statement and it was directed at Brian =)

I've known Brian and Walt for for a year or more now. But I have only had the pleasure of playing Brian once with my nyds in 4th edition.

Yours may well have been, but mine, was certainly not. I have known Brian and Walt for more than a year or 2, and have still only played Brian once. To quote some unknown 40k player, out of obscurity;

"He keeps hiding from me on table 1 in all the tournaments, knowing he's safe from me there."




Clay

Man, a lot of blah-blah for a Battle Report. Thanks for the write-up. It seems like the multiple Monolith build really scales up well to the 'Ard-Boyz points value.

- Blackbone

By the way, a 2 monolith/Nightbringer list won the Greenville, SC event.

I also took first with above, and I live in MN. I find that while everybody seems to know and expect the deceiver, very few seem to have the same level of familiarity with the Nightbringer. Against all armies but SM hes a guaranteed gamewrecker if he gets to your lines.

EDIT:
Nvm he works on SM too.

Primarch wrote:

Clay Williams wrote:It wasnt a general statement and it was directed at Brian =)

I've known Brian and Walt for for a year or more now. But I have only had the pleasure of playing Brian once with my nyds in 4th edition.

Yours may well have been, but mine, was certainly not. I have known Brian and Walt for more than a year or 2, and have still only played Brian once. To quote some unknown 40k player, out of obscurity;

"He keeps hiding from me on table 1 in all the tournaments, knowing he's safe from me there."




Clay

I am kinda lost as to where you are going with this?