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BrotherStynier wrote:And you're a Space Wolf?

Actually, the SW run a lot more like a Chapter than a Legion. Instead of merely having companies, we have GREAT COMPANIES but logical reflection (I'm thinking here of Gwar!'s brilliant post on the subject) leads to the conclusion that the over all strength is actually no greater than about 1000 SM at any given time. While it's true that the Wolves reject the codex overall it is also true that we have not contributed nearly as much to the survival and maintenance of SM overall, either. It seems clear that Russ gave into Guilliman at some level since there was no civil war. I would say that Russ had his priorities straight all through and after the Heresy. I'm not so sure about the Lion or even Rogal Dorn. Dorn seems to have been suffering from major post-traumatic stress. I think this weird side of him survives in the Black Templars.

@Rory: It's really not a matter of opinion whether the Codex works. Ten thousand years have proven that it does. Of course there has been give and take. The possible rigidity of Guilliman in that regard may have indeed been a flaw--but it did not in fact lead to heresy. I don't think that people understand the Horus Heresy very well. Let's put this into some numbers: say the Imperium is functioning at 100% efficiency and loyalty throughout the Great Crusade--that's when the Heresy erupts. Afterwards, the Imperium is bereft of its great leader and its greatest armies are in shambles. Let's say the Imperium is only at about 60% or less by then. Isn't it much more likely that a heresy would have arisen at that point? Especially, as you claim, given that Guilliman chose that point to introduce the Codex and demand adherence? And yet it dd not. Whether or not he was an ass about it (your imagination may be spot on, and is certainly vivid, but it hardly is canonical), Guilliman's idea worked and is still working.

Manchu wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:And you're a Space Wolf?

Actually, the SW run a lot more like a Chapter than a Legion. Instead of merely having companies, we have GREAT COMPANIES but logical reflection (I'm thinking here of Gwar!'s brilliant post on the subject) leads to the conclusion that the over all strength is actually no greater than about 1000 SM at any given time. While it's true that the Wolves reject the codex overall it is also true that we have not contributed nearly as much to the survival and maintenance of SM overall, either. It seems clear that Russ gave into Guilliman at some level since there was no civil war. I would say that Russ had his priorities straight all through and after the Heresy. I'm not so sure about the Lion or even Rogal Dorn. Dorn seems to have been suffering from major post-traumatic stress. I think this weird side of him survives in the Black Templars.

Despite what our friend Gwar may say GW has said that the Space Wolves are larger than your average chapter, far larger. At one point I believe it was said that Grimnar's Company had 3,000 Marines in it. Also Fenris is believed to be much larger than Earth with a population similar to modern Earth, albeit a much more nomadic population. So I would still have to believe that the Space Wolves are larger than the average Chapter and possibly the size of 4 other chapters but we won't know until October.

Russ avoided the Civil war by creating one Successor Chapter, the Wolf Brothers, that suffered from mutation and was ultimately disbanded.

Codex Astartes wasn't a bad idea.
Remember the Tyrant of Badab, that was ONE chapter (granted they allied with a few others) think of the problems if Huron managed to control a LEGION!

Well if GW continues on the path its going the Red Corsairs will be legion sized.

I thought there were only 100 or so left?

They are regrowing, at least thats what I can assume since they stole all of a loyalist chapter's geneseed.

BrotherStynier wrote:Despite what our friend Gwar may say GW has said that the Space Wolves are larger than your average chapter, far larger. At one point I believe it was said that Grimnar's Company had 3,000 Marines in it. Also Fenris is believed to be much larger than Earth with a population similar to modern Earth, albeit a much more nomadic population. So I would still have to believe that the Space Wolves are larger than the average Chapter and possibly the size of 4 other chapters but we won't know until October.

I'm not sure of its sources, but Lexicanum has the numbers varying from 150 to 1000 SM per Great Company. I think there is plenty of room for Gwar!'s speculation given that--but you're right: no hard facts yet and probably none in the new codex, either. I'm not sure where your ideas about Fenris come from, however.

Anyway, this is supposed to be a thread about Ultramarines. The Wolves did what was good for them but it turns out that the Codex worked better for 99% of all Space Marines over the last ten thousand years. Go Guilliman!

The Red Corsairs absolutely looted one Chapter the Marines Errant of their ENTIRE Geneseed stock thus adding 100 + capable recruits to their numbers add that to the numerous raids they have launched across the board and we have a VERY big problem

Also add the fact that they proberly attract every rogue and brigand for several light years and and they have a lot of candidates ready and capable to take the geneseed they could be a very big problem in the forseeable future (sorry bad spelling im not functioning at 100% feel rough hmmmm corruption of papa Nurgle)

Greetings,

I would also note that, to a certain degree, dislike of the Ultrasmurfs comes from a outside of fluff reason. For many older fans the role of the rigid, uber loyal, and highly tactical Marines was, and always had been, the role of the Crimson Fists, and those very nice Ultramarines were a 3rd founding chapter and we suppose they did okay in whatever wars they were fighting. Oh, by the way, Rogal Dorn is the uber tactician, he defended the Emperor's palace don't'cha'know.

Then we got a new pile of fluff that shoved the mighty blue superman (1st founding, thank you very much) Marines of perfection at us and oh so kindly told us that Rogal was lucky to be allowed to follow in Guilliman's scented footsteps, after all, Guilliman didn't have even a single one of his Marines die during the siege of Terra, and that's why he gets to write Ye Olde Book of Spassh Marines, you'betcha.

At an intrinsic fluff level I have no issue with the Ultramarines - but for what they did to the glorious Fists (both of them) within the context of non-fluff situations I'll always have a bit of a sore spot at them.

They do have, by far, one of the most attractive and simplistically stylish color schemes though.

I can sympathize with the point about the Crimson Fists. As I said earlier, this thread was the product of my deliberating over which Chapter to start: U-Marines or C-Fists . . . I have yet to make up my mind but along the way I reformed my own dislike of Guilliman and his sons.

Can we please list all he names mocking Robbie Girlyman. I want to put it in my sig.

TBH i was very very pissed off when the Ultrasmurfs were killed, i mean the nids were meant todestroy them according to the BRB number 4, but no they survive.

Can someone tell me how Macragge is still perfect after a HUGE nid invasion are there any civilians left?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we please list all he names mocking Robbie Girlyman. I want to put it in my sig.

TBH i was very very pissed off when the Ultrasmurfs were killed, i mean the nids were meant todestroy them according to the BRB number 4, but no they survive.

Can someone tell me how Macragge is still perfect after a HUGE nid invasion are there any civilians left?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we please list all he names mocking Robbie Girlyman. I want to put it in my sig.

TBH i was very very pissed off when the Ultrasmurfs were killed, i mean the nids were meant todestroy them according to the BRB number 4, but no they survive.

Can someone tell me how Macragge is still perfect after a HUGE nid invasion are there any civilians left?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we please list all he names mocking Robbie Girlyman. I want to put it in my sig.

TBH i was very very pissed off when the Ultrasmurfs were killed, i mean the nids were meant todestroy them according to the BRB number 4, but no they survive.

Can someone tell me how Macragge is still perfect after a HUGE nid invasion are there any civilians left?

In 10 thousand years all that has been proven about the codex is that it's an excuse for the inquisition to dislike certain space marine chapters. You can't say the Codex works because there is no control group, there are no non-codex legions to compare to. Wait, yes there are, and all of them are incredibly strong and more loyal to the emperor than 3 "chapters" combined. All Ghoulmon accomplished was the weakening of the space marines and the division of the Imperium, setting the stage for the next 9000 years of tyranny. The fact there wasn't a second heresy or civil war was because the other primarchs knew that it was conform or die. Even the SWs humored Ribbit (ok im running out of names) and made a successor chapter.

I love how GW claims the Smurfs are the best because they adhere to the codex best, when any of the legions could tear them apart.

@Xav:
Rowboat Girlyman
Robot Beguileman (cuz he's a robot in disguise)
Big Ray-Ray
Papa Smurf
Ribbit Gigglebutt
Rabbit

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, there are "goodies" in 40k apart from Ultrasmurffs. Like BA and sanguinius for example. (Also, Rowboat is often portrayed as arrogant or even a downright jackass at times)

I'm not sure I'd call the Blood Angels "Goodies", they are one of the more arrogant and distrustful chapters iirc and some of their successors are even worse! Many Imperial forces refuse to work with Blood Angel successors because they're almost as likely to be killed as the enemy or so they think anyway...

BrotherStynier wrote:As for the Smurfs, I just don't like how over the top they make Calgar I mean catching and stopping the Wailing Doom in his power fist...

That's because they are Daemon weapons, Calgar just doesn't realise it.

But as said, I do respect the Ultramarines for giving hope in the 40k universe, but I chose to play the chapter that most reflects my playing style.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The ultrasmurffs do have a nice crib. And they have decent enough fluff. But I will always thirst for something different. Too many people go for them, there is too much about them, too exploited and controlled for me to be attracted to them.

I will always go for some chapter with a little more mystery, a little less coverage. Pretty much ANY other race/chapter fits that description.

I will die or worse *shudder* collect Fantasy, before I am corrupted by the Ultrasmurfs.

Not alot of people go for them. I started a poll and last time I checked only one person played ultrasmurfs. But everyone is right. Their crib's tight yo!

@Canonness Rory

I think you're a bit off: there is no chapter that has not complied in some (at least minimal) way to the Codex. MOst are generally compliant. Few, other than the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, are strictly compliant. Of the very few that are least compliant, only Space Wolves are reliably concerned with the rest of the Imperium. Dark Angels are notoriously fickle and self-absorbed while the Black Templars are obsessive fanatics bent on their own agenda of "proving their loyalty." Despite these aberrations, the vast majority of Space Marines serve as proof that the Codex has worked.

Again, I have to stress that Dorn seemed to be on the edge of losing it after the Crusade. Even though Russ and Vulkan sided with Dorn, notice that only Dorn was fied upon. Also notice that it was Dorn's giving in that averted the civil war even when Russ only split his chapter in a token way. IMO, Dorn was only a few steps away from being the next Horus himself. I think that it's telling that it was the Codex issue that nearly pushed him over the edge. )It's also telling that the Imperial Fists are second only to the Ultramarines in their devotion to the Codex Astartes.) Giving in and letting go was probably the only thing that saved him from sharing his traitor brothers' fates. And yet that crazed mindset survived him, personified by the Black Templars.

Grim.Badger wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, there are "goodies" in 40k apart from Ultrasmurffs. Like BA and sanguinius for example. (Also, Rowboat is often portrayed as arrogant or even a downright jackass at times)

I'm not sure I'd call the Blood Angels "Goodies", they are one of the more arrogant and distrustful chapters iirc and some of their successors are even worse! Many Imperial forces refuse to work with Blood Angel successors because they're almost as likely to be killed as the enemy or so they think anyway...

I think you're confusing DA with BA. Dark Angels are arrogant becuase they were the first legion to be founded. BA are purported to be the noblest (not arrogant noble) of all the chapters. Yet they harbour a deep dark secret. The Black Rage. And they constantly search for a cure or try to steel themselves against it.

One of thier sucessor chapters aren't so great. The Flesh Tearers. They seem to have embraced thier thirst for blood or something.

Yeah I was thinking of the Flesh Tearers, they don't much care for anything other than the battle...

TBH i dont dislike the UM so much, more the fact that GW only uses the 2nd Company. I mean most (if not all) of the studios UM models for the last 10 years have been from the 2nd company.

Would be cool if some of the other 9 companies got their 15 min of fame

I noticed that someone metioned that the Ultramarines lost no Marines on Terra.The reason for that is because Horus had them sent as far away as possible.Horus knew Gulliman was the only one of his Brothers who could match him.Also the Ultramarines were the LARGEST legion by far and were what held the Imperium together after the heresy.All the other Legions were decimated or severely understrength after the Heresy.The Imperial Army had been shattered and the Titan Legions were busy figuring out who followed what.So make fun of Gulliman and the boys in Blue all you want without them the Imperium would have been destroyed by Xenos,and civil war.

I like the ultramarines, in fact i..um..kinda play them, but i am planing on playing some other chapters (top of the list is the space wolfs). But i can say that not many newbies in my area play them, most newbies ive seen play either the Home Depot spray paint marines or the "lets just take a big brush full of paint and out it on" marines.

Octavius Widowmaker wrote:So make fun of Gulliman and the boys in Blue all you want without them the Imperium would have been destroyed by Xenos,and civil war.

QFT.

trougedoor122 wrote:I like the ultramarines, in fact i..um..kinda play them, but i am planing on playing some other chapters (top of the list is the space wolfs). But i can say that not many newbies in my area play them, most newbies ive seen play either the Home Depot spray paint marines or the "lets just take a big brush full of paint and out it on" marines.

A man after my own heart! I also have not seen a great many people playing them although it is often claimed that legions of people do. It seems like the problem might be that they are "GW's own Chapter" and some people dump on them because they have (maybe legitimate) issues with GW.

I know at my local store four of the seven people who play 'vanilla' marines do so with either the Ultramarines or a subsequent founding chapter based off of them.

I suspect you're probably correct that a lot of the Ultra-over saturation helps lead to issues with the chapter. As I've said, looking at their fluff I've yet to find any particular reasons to dislike them (I read into the whole re-org situation differently, but I still don't hate the Ultras for it). Thus far I really feel this thread is showing that pretty much all Ultra-hatred is based on outside of fluff considerations.

Hope I dont sound to stupid here but what is QFT?

Move your cursor over the acronym.

Means "quoted for truth"--a lot of Dakka abbreviations are explained in a little caption that comes up when you hover over them with the mouse pointer.

OK I feel stupid now. thanks for the clarification.I thought it meant something similar but with Dakka I had to be sure.

No worries, man. It took me a while to notice that function, too, and you are certainly not the first person to ask for that kind of clarification.

Dorn was so depressed over the death of the emperor, not because he was close to falling to chaos. Had the codex not been put forth the imperium would be stronger. The fact that there are so many chapters that adhere to it is not proof that it works, it is proof that it exists, and if you dont conform to it you dont get to become a chapter. Girlyman put forth the codex because of his own pride, not because of his concern for the imperium. He wanted his will to be enforced. He chose the time that he did for a reason, because he knew the other chapters would be afraid of another civil war and more likely to comply. Rowboat did not have the imperium's interest at heart, he had only his own pride at heart. Dorn should have been put in charge, not rowboat. Not only was Dorn wiser, he was also stronger and more devoted. Dorn was on the complete opposite end of the spectrum from chaos, where girlyman was on the fence, putting his own pride above the Imperium. Dorn, on the other hand, put the Imperium over his own pride and adopted the Codex. It is indeed telling that the Imperial Fists adhere to the codex, because Dorn knew if he didn't Rowboat would start another civil war.

Well, we won't be convincing each other. I'll let things stand as they are and see what other people think of our contrasting viewpoints.

You mean dorn the Arrogant?Dorn who almost destroyed his Legion because of his pride?Some may not know this but let me inform you who do not.Dorn in all his supposed wisdom allowed himself to be lured into a trap by his brother Perturbo of the Iron Warriors.Perturbo told Dorn he would never take his homeworld from him.Now Dorn could not let this go so he took what was left of his Legion to the Iron Warriors homeworld.If he was so smart why did he not see the trap laid for him?It almost destroyed what was left of the Imperial Fists.Perturbo called it the Iron Cage for a reason.Dorn did not even know there were hardly any Iron Warriors there at all not even Perturbo.Now you say Gulliman was prideful and arrogant?I say look at Dorn and see what true arrogance can do.Gulliman did what was best for the Legions before they were destroyed in another civil war or the Imperium decided to destroy them just in case another heresy occured.