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Dorn made mistakes, and almost got his legion killed. Girlyman made mistakes, and almost got the Imperium killed. Guilliman did not do what was best for the legions, the codex's purpose was not to avoid a civil war, but it nearly created one.

I thought Dorn knew it was a trap? I mean he'd have to be stupid not to really. But he considered the Iron Warriors to be too great a threat to the impeium to be left to fortify the Chaos positions post heresy. Although the IF took heavy loses, they tied up the Iron Warriors and caused significant casualties to the legion stopping them from creating a foothold in Imperial space. You've got to remember that the story is largely told from the Chaos point of view and so ignores the contribution to the Imperium that the seige brought.
After the Iron Cage, the IF were increadibly hard trained veterans and re-organised to fit the Codex; the contribution they and the CF and BT made to the young Imperium was and still is invaluable.

Ultramarines were my first army. I think they're great.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Ultramarines were my first army. I think they're great.

Sarcasm? No offense intended. I'm glad to hear it if you're serious.

Ultramarines are for those that want to be the goody goody superhumans of 40K, now I don't see this as a bad thing as having the ability to be ultragood can be a good thing.

Other chapters like space wolves blood angels and custom made chapters can be used to be slightly more evil for those that want to and to enable players to show off an individual flare without having to go and be forced to be chaos.

Personally I like the varients that you can choose from GoodytooShoes to Renagades.

Octavius Widowmaker wrote:You mean dorn the Arrogant?Dorn who almost destroyed his Legion because of his pride?Some may not know this but let me inform you who do not.Dorn in all his supposed wisdom allowed himself to be lured into a trap by his brother Perturbo of the Iron Warriors.Perturbo told Dorn he would never take his homeworld from him.Now Dorn could not let this go so he took what was left of his Legion to the Iron Warriors homeworld.If he was so smart why did he not see the trap laid for him?It almost destroyed what was left of the Imperial Fists.Perturbo called it the Iron Cage for a reason.Dorn did not even know there were hardly any Iron Warriors there at all not even Perturbo.Now you say Gulliman was prideful and arrogant?I say look at Dorn and see what true arrogance can do.Gulliman did what was best for the Legions before they were destroyed in another civil war or the Imperium decided to destroy them just in case another heresy occured.

IIRC he only took 500 or so Marines with him

Personally, i think the UM are only hated so much because of how much more marketed the are than anyon one else. If the poter boys for SM and 40k in general were the IF or wolves or DA or BA or...or... the would probably be hated jst as much and the UM would be loved by all

I just dont like them because they are the 40k version of the indianappolis colts

Codex was a wise choice. That way, there could never be another Horus (on such a scale).

Does'nt mean I have to like Girlyman though. All he did was write a book. And he was a jerk to his little bro Alphurius.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Codex was a wise choice. That way, there could never be another Horus (on such a scale).

Unless you look at the Dark Angels and their Unforgiven brethren. The other Unforgiven still answer to the Dark Angels Inner Circle essentially meaning that they are the size of their Legion prior to the Heresy, if not slightly larger.

Weally?
meh, most are dead. (Space Rok, don`t help.)

DA can go *&%# themselves with an iron stick.

GOOD NIGHT! *little wave*

Another way of looking at it is to say that Rob managed to avoid the fighting at the assault on Terra. Then, with his legion being by far the strongest (especially since it was bigger to begin with) he was able to impose his vision on the Astartes. Not to mention that since then the majority of new chapters have used UM geneseed.

If his primary interest was in securing a grand legacy for himself then he certainly managed to do so.

Gulliman was the most 'succesful' of the Primarchs, it was his success that had him too far from Terra to help deal with the onset of the chaos uprising.

If any of the primarchs had the 'resume' to say 'This is how it has to be' Gulliman was the one.

He actually gave up more power than anyother primarch in doing so as Ultramarines and thier 2nd foundings are believed to account for over half of all the space marines that remained loyal. This means he also saw the potential for another Heresy, by dividing the Legions into smaller units they would be more manageable.

My nilla SM's are Ultramarines of the 7th reserve Company. And for some diversity Im adding units from other UM 2nd foundings, Hawk Lords, Doom Eagles, Consuls and so forth. Fluff wise I see it as a sort of training exchange program. Im also thinking of painting my IG as an Ultramar PDF rather than the blah Cadians everyone is doing these days.

I will chime in and say that my latest army is the UltraMarine 3rd company. I was drawn to the boys in blue because they are the good guys and I like the good guys. I'm not put off that they are the poster boy or that every mouth breather seems to have a few UM's. I don't care about the angst, secret motives, or dark secrets of other chapters.

As to whether Roboute Guilliman was nearly as bad as Horus for imposing his will upon the Astartes when it was at it's weakest? He did what he thought was needed to rebuild the empire safer than it was before. The loss of one chapter is easier to bear than the loss of a legion of marines. One charismatic leader can lead his group astray, and if his group is kept small, less the damage he can cause.

My space marines are also Ultramarines. I like them as the loyalist's loyalists. Go smurfs!

Manchu wrote:Even before Roboute Guilliman was found by the inhabitants of Macragge, that planet was not a particularly terrible place (unlike Fenris, Caliban, etc, etc) but actually an already civilized and quite peaceful planet.

Macragge is also more of a spartan society which is regarded as utopian by Imperial standards.

tl;dr Ultramarines maintain the moral order of the 40k universe

hellsguardian316 wrote:Ultramarines are for those that want to be the goody goody superhumans of 40K, now I don't see this as a bad thing as having the ability to be ultragood can be a good thing.

They have nothing on the Salamanders.

Canonness Rory wrote:Had the codex not been put forth the imperium would be stronger. The fact that there are so many chapters that adhere to it is not proof that it works, it is proof that it exists, and if you dont conform to it you dont get to become a chapter.

While some of the Primarchs did oppose the decree that required them to split their legions, that's not the same as opposing the entirety of the Codex Astartes. There's much more to it than the Chapter organisation (such as the improved creation and training methods of the Astartes which made them less prone to corruption).

Hmm, time for me to have my two shillings.

I personally disliked the Ultramarines when I was younger, mainly for all the reasons stated here ("baaaw, their too good at everything, their brighter than bright and twice as shiny!") but now being older and wiser I can come to appreciate the old boys in blue for several reasons.

1: They aren't morally good all the time. Good is a state of mine. What we have to remember is the system they defend. They fight for the good of the Imperium., and would willingly commit genocide to defend it. I don't care what you say, anything willing to unleash death on the scale that all SM chapters are willing to do are quite morally dark.

2: They fought of the Tyranids! Their chief Librarian told the Hive Mind to take a jump (in person...well as close as in person you can possibly get to the Hive Mind)

3: If you're looking for really, and I mean REALLY de-humanised goody-goodies, then look no further than Dakka favourites The Grey Knights. I like 'em to, but the Ultra-boys are literal party animals compared to the Grey Ones!

So their about as 'good' as 'good' can be in the spectrum of the Imperium (like Paul Atreidies was 'good' in the spectrum of Dune). If you want genuine good guys, then the Tau are more likely the ones you're looking for. Stop moaning, the Ultramarines are cool

I think i try harder to win when i fight Ultra Marine's I guess it's for the sake of beating up the poster boy.

I have to be honest i think the Dark Angel's are my fav out of the loyal chapter's

Dorn took alot more than 500 Marines with him.He was trying to take a world not go for a stroll in the park.Without the Codex the Legions would have been seen as a threat and had to go to war with the Imperium. He had to risk a second civil war by introducing the Codex Astartes.His brothers did not want to relinquish the power they held and Their arrogance and pride almost caused another split.If the Legions were not broken down the Imerium would fall apart.They needed Space Marines everwehere.Not a feew huge armys that could only deal with one conflict at a time.So I say again withoutthe Codex Astartes there would be no Imperium.

As much as I love the Ultramarines, I have to make this point with the timeline...

Circa M29: The Unification Wars. The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Robute Guilliman, is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy. Half of all Space Marine chapters betray the Emperor and turn to Chaos. Terra is sieged by the traitors, most Astartes legions suffer major losses, the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars are forced to make a stand on Terra, while the Dark Angels lose their homeworld,the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed,and the Emperor is crippled. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

546.M32: 'The Beheading': The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

843.M35: Distress call from Grendel's World investigated. Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

Early M36: The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin. Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor, into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros (Fire Hawks' world) thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

266.M36: Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar. He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completly destroyed by a warp storm, still existing today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins. Doombreed, a prince of Khorne declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades. Lord Solar Macharius sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

444.M41: First War for Armageddon. Chaos incursion led by Angron and World Eaters beaten back by Space Wolves and Grey Knights. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated.

745.M41: First Tyrannic War. Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines homeworld Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids.

901-912.M41 Badab War. The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

941-942.M41: Second War for Armageddon. The Ultramarines bump into an Ork Waaagh! while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels.

757998.M41 The Third War for Armageddon begins. Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate, and soon Ghazghkull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

5999.M41 Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade. The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of chaos. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

I love you cheese.

There sure is a lot of "convenience" going on around here.

But to be fair, they are only one chapter (never mind the sucessors), so they WILL miss out on some action.

I personally have no real problem with the Smurfs, but I personally like the Salamanders, just from the little fluff I can find. (If anybody has links to Salamanders fluff, please let me know.)
However, as for the Codex, I think that it can be viewed as both good and bad. You cut down the size of potential traitors since with Horus, it is proven anybody could succumb to Chaos. Also, it was probably good at the time. However, there could be a dark plan, considering SM have potentially long lives, thus making long term planning a plus IMO.

There's nothing "convenient" about it. The Realm of Ultramar is on the opposite side of the galaxy from the EoT. You can't blame them for not being there.

Bottom line is this: If the 40K Galaxy was real, and you were living in it, you'd want to be in Ultramar.

Well, aside from that Tyranid problem.

But other than that, there is NO better place for an 'ordinary' human to live!

The smurfs are all right apart from Marneus Calgar and the 1st and 2nd company. The other 8 companies get as much love as the other chapters. And the colour scheme is quite good.

I don't get the comment, that always arises in Ultramarine discussions, that "everyone" plays Ultramarines or that it's "screaming 12-year-olds" who play Ultramarines.

Is this a British thing?

I am the only member of my club of 30+ 40K players who plays Ultramarines. I am 35. I only do so because BfM was my entrypoint into the hobby and once I had painted up three Ultramarines I didn't want to start over again with a different color scheme because I am lazy.

Once, ONCE, maybe three years ago I saw one other Ultramarines player pop into the local GW branch for a game. Never saw him again. He must have been in his early 20's.

At a huge doubles tourney a year and a half ago I saw one half of a doubles pairing, 1,250 points' worth, of Ultramarines being fielded by someone my age or older.

Could these stories of Ultramarine popularity and average player age just be tales at this point, perhaps based on some sort of historical truth in the distant past but now just legends?


I like the Ultramarines precisely because they are "the good guys." 40K fluff wears on me sometimes...yes, yes, the galaxy is horrible, yes, yes, humans are techno-savages who like to set each other on fire out of superstitious nonsense, yes, yes, we're all doomed, blah blah blah.

Seriously, just go read "The Road" and be done with it already...

The Ultramarines are the only real bastion of hope in the 40K universe, you know, the idea that not all humans might suck, that it might be possible for SOME people to live decent lives even in this murk of garbage that the galaxy has descended into.

I suppose if I have to spend time in a game universe that has been locked in a narrative coma for 20 years that I may as well be spending that time with an army who actually protects its citizens and considers the maintenance of their welfare part of their charge, not just something they attend to when they feel like it or when it's convenient for them...the stupidity of humanity in the 40K universe is something that constantly galls me and gets rather boring rather quickly.

The Ultrmarines beat the Nids on Maccrage.The whole 1st Company was wiped out.Oh and the White Scars were with the Damocles Crusade in greater numbers than the Ultramarines.Quit beating on them because they are GWs poster child for Marines.

Ultramarines are certainly a plurality (by which I mean the most common, but not more common than the other types combined, I'm suddenly seized with doubt as to whether that's what that word means) of Marine armies I see. I attend a fair amount of the tournaments in Atlanta, probably like 10+ events a year, plus Adepticon and the Big Waaagh, for what that's worth considering my sample size.

I'll do you one better on the cynicism. I'm tired of people being tired of GW's narrative direction. Congrats, you are smarter than the fictional inhabitants of a universe created to jusity a wargame. That officially establishes your credentials as a clever post-ironic net dweller. Now why are you on a message board dedicated to this hobby? We are enthusiasts here, we like 40k. Its a big internet. If you don't share our enthusiasm, there's better pasttimes than trolling us.

Cheese Elemental wrote:As much as I love the Ultramarines, I have to make this point with the timeline...

Ouch, that hurt to read. I wish I could get away with that as a sig line.

Though, in all fairness to the Ultras, since they're a bit of a Johnny Come Lately 1st Founding they had, by then, already been somewhat excluded from most of the major engagements, and since GW barely advances the timeline they do end up spending a lot of time "on the other side of the galaxy".

Cairnius wrote:I don't get the comment, that always arises in Ultramarine discussions, that "everyone" plays Ultramarines or that it's "screaming 12-year-olds" who play Ultramarines....I am the only member of my club of 30+ 40K players who plays Ultramarines.

Just to note the prevalence of Ultramarines (though clearly your local club is an Ultra-less zone) go search through some battle reports on this site and others. If people play vanilla Marines then more then likely they're playing the boys in blue. This in no way is a message from me that the Ultrasmurfs are then somehow less worthy from a fluff level - I'm just pointing out that you happen to exist in a play area that is uncommonly free of them. To my mind this isn't surprising, their paint scheme is simple and looks very good, and if you have any GW material you're certainly looking at a lot of cool Marines done up in blue, white, and gold. I'm sure that helps lead a lot of players into painting their armies to be Ultras at that point.

At my shop, other than other Codex Marine players, if people are playing 'nilla, there are two Salamanders (me and one other guy) and about 5 Smurfs. Then there's one Templar, one SW and one DA.