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Then there was much sacrilege on the world Heliosa; much of the Thousand Sons book can be expected to paint the T-Son in a sympathetic light, and the Wolves in an unfavorable one... but library burning is library burning, and thats just what the Wolves did.

Helios nothing. If you want to talk about library burning, let's not skirt Prospero itself. But burning libraries can be (and often is) "good" in the Grimdark.

I can actually 'accept' Prospero based on the fact that Horus changed the Emperors order to bring Magnus is into killing him outright - that kind of order, against a primarch and a legion- couldn't result in anything but the destruction of a world, as much of a shame as that is.

I haven't read the Horus Heresy but if Russ believed that Magnus and the thousand sons had been corrupted to the extent the Emporer order for them to be destroyed then burning all their books would have been seen as removing the taint. Leaving libraries of chaos knowledge isn't smart.

I just finished reading the "Legends of the Space Marines" compilation, and came across the story of Uriel's trial (the story even has a preface stating that it takes place before Dead Sky Black Sun).

Needless to say, it does not paint Sicarius or even Calgar in a favorable light.

4M2A wrote:I haven't read the Horus Heresy but if Russ believed that Magnus and the thousand sons had been corrupted to the extent the Emporer order for them to be destroyed then burning all their books would have been seen as removing the taint. Leaving libraries of chaos knowledge isn't smart.

the Emperor DIDNT order the Thousands son to be destroyed; he ordered Russ to Bring Magnus in for the Emperor to deal with himself - it was Horus, who had been corrupted by Chaos at that point who changed the orders into getting Russ to kill Magnus (which would result in Magnus falling to Chaos)

Yeah I know that I am saying from Russ' point of view the emperor said kill Magnus which means he did something pretty bad. Considering Russ already had the ideas that psyker = chaos it is very possible he thought he was destroying tainted materials.

That true; but again, my big issue isnt with the fall of Prospoero, its event before the fall that that showed the Wolves as not caring about what they destroyed, just the action of destroying.

In the middle of Battle for the Abyss and it makes SWs look like jerks. These guys are just impossible to work with fro other Space Marines. They try to turn everything into a bar room brawl.

Whose perspective is the book written from Kami?

Would I be correct in thinking that that would affect the impression portrayed in the book?

A third person....a Narrator.

I am not overly fond of the boys in blue but i won't just add a comment that is the equivalent of "smurfs suck". I think the reason they get so much flack is that they receive so much attention when some of the other founding legions receive the table scraps from GW. you could rename the 5th edition codex for marines, "ultramarines and friends" and not have to change a thing. I know that they are GW's poster boys but its getting a bit ridiculous. Lets go through the list shall we?

Special characters:

the vast majority are smurfs. they have: One of the galaxies best psykers: Tigurius, who can use every single power in the book and still mind fight the hive mind itself.

Calgar: is disgusting fluff wise, he can kill the living embodiment of a war god who bleeds lava in one on one combat

Cato sicaruis:is all ready mentioned in previous posts so ill ignore him

Sergent Telion and Chronus: because the ultras were clearly in desperate need of more characters, how else would we know that the ultras were masters of stealth and tank warfare now? sure the iron hand are probably better at mech warfare and haven't gotten any attention or a single model besides a tac squad, or that the raven guard are probably more sneaky the the blues.

and if I recall correctly, vulkcan didn't even have a model when he came out.

so if you played sallies or iron hands or raven guard wouldn't you be a little honked off that every new model GW makes only makes the smurfs even more awesome and read page after page of the smurfs winning every single battle they fight?

Carlovonsexron wrote:Not so much the treatment of the Thousand sons was worrying, in so much as the fact that they leave no knowledge in their wake. They destroy everything - which for an Imperium for whoms' basis of technology is from rediscovering STC tech, would be a cardinal sin of the greatest proportions - if chaos wasnt there to more clearly define the term

Be fair the SW aren't stupid and they could probably recognise an STC if they found one
But if the knowledge is considered heretical it's better to be safe than sorry, the fact that the SW like to blow up/burn stuff does bias them slightly but if it's important knowledge there is probably an inquisitor around looking for it.

Klawz wrote:

4M2A wrote:Carlovonsexron you should try to read the history part of the SW codex if you want more info on the way they treat others.

Another example of SW protecting individuals I found in the codex is Called the "Daemonbane war".

Space Wolf Codex Page 19
The radical Inquisitor Lord Querrian turns chaos against itself upon the daemon infested world of Yaogeddon. Sven Bloodhowl's Great Company, themselves battling the daemonic hordes at Yaogeddon's molten core are astonished when the legions of Khorne and Slaanesh turn on each other to the exclusion of all else. The astonished Sven orders his men to hold off and when the dust settles Sven and Querrian join forces to mop up the reamainder of the daemonic horde with ease.

Days later the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus arive to execute Querrian for his heretical and unorthodox methods. Sven intervenes, bristling with indignation at what he percieves as a gorss injustice. The Ordo Malleus do not back down and war is declared under a full moon. Though the Space wolves eventually desist is is not until Sven's actions have bought Querrian enough time to escape.

If the UM had just been saved by Querrian I doubt they would try and save him. They are more likely to arrest him, hand him over then claim they captured the a dangerous chaos cultist.

But why would you assume that? There is no proof. You are making your point with "I think they would..."
Well, you know what, I think that if the wolves were at the Battle for Macragge, the tyranids would have eaten them!

Because operating outside the rules and bounds of the codex is unthinkable to the ultramarines, regardless of how noble the act or cause. Thinking outside the box is difficult to the point of comical for the ultramarines. They would have handed Querrian over to the inquisition because:
a) its what the codex would suggest they do
b) by breaking from the static tradition and using radical methods to stop the demons, Querrian has now become a heretic in the eyes of the imperium and we all know the ultramarines have no compassion for heretics of any sort.

On the subject of the SW, I think the idea that they are little more than rabid wolves of humanity and they do not value human life is a rather ignorant and misinformed opinion and anyone who has read any background on the space wolves (and their codex in particular) would know this is not the case. The space wolves are the OPPOSITE of insular, they are much more personable and friendly to the rest of humanity and are beloved of the common people. The ultramarines on the other hand exemplify insular and aloof. They do not see humans as friends and equals, they see them as charges in need of direction and leadership.

As other have pointed out, the space wolves are the ones who stick up for the rights of humans. When the bravery of armageddons citizens were rewarded with slavery and death and all reccord of their struggle was purged, the SW were ready to attack imperial forces to avenge them. When the flesh tearers began an orgy of indescriminate killing and bloodshed on the citizens of Lucid Prime in order to 'purge all who have been tainted by chaos' the SW do not hesitate to attack the flesh tearers in order to defend them.
Would the ultramarines have done the same? I doubt it, their views on the matter would probably have been the same as the inquisition's: the citizens of armageddon and lucid prime both had been exposed to chaos and must be dealt with. The ultramarines would have stood by, no doubt believing that what was being done was for the good of humaity. They would never oppose the inquisition or the lords of terra. They are dogmatic and rigid to a fault. While the space wolves will do what they believe is right and fair in their hearts, the ultramarines will do whatever the codex would tell them in that situation. I summary, the Ultramarines are limited both tactically and morally by the codex astarates.

Being a SW fan, I still wouldn't go so far as to call the Ultramarines rigid and limited, but I would agree that their first instincts would turn towards the letter of the law.

However, I think they're just as prepared to turn a blind eye to Imperial laws being unfair. They're not going to overtly oppose the Imperium, though.

For instance, the Querrian affair. I'd rather think the Ultramarines would stall the Inquisition peacefully, in the purest bureaucratic style, rather than start a brawl.

Doing the right thing doesn't always require a dramatic gesture. The understated approach would fit the Ultramarines better, and I'm quite confident they'd be one of the few chapters who can and do sometimes disagree with the High Lords.

During the war with hive behemoth on the ultramarines were shocked that their traditional codex astarates tactics were ineffective against the tyranids and calgar had to meditate for a week without food or drink to finally realize their problem...they needed to adapt and *gasp* develop new strategies not covered in the codex. This is something that should have been clear right away to any competent commander and to his credit calgar did admit their pride had blinded them and perhaps the codex did not include all the answers. Still, it took 10, 000 years a crushing defeat against the tyranids for the ultramarines to realize that in order for them to survive they would have to adapt and move outside the shackles of tradition they had placed themselves in. If that wasn't limiting themselves I don't know what is.

I'm just saying... defensive tactics against an outnumbering invader are probably found somewhere within the Codex.

The proper procedure to dealing with an Inquisitor who helped you out but the Inqusition thinks is a traitor probably doesn't get mentioned... Must of skipped Guilliman's mind...

Hey Lupe just noticed your sig.
Surely SM's lightbulbs have a bayonet fitting?

Anyhoo swiftly back to the matter in hand.
Surely a codex can't legislate for everything?
Even if one ignores new problems arising over time, the complexities of battle in a vast and hostile universe makes for a rigid adherence to a prescribed code futile?

Or have I missed something as per?

If you want a chapter that gives it's all for Humanity then read Helsreach and dare to tell me that there is chapter that does it better than the Black Templars. They fight to save Human lives even when there is no hope of survival.

They where the Chapter that won the 3rd war of Armageddon. I've yet to find a war where the Ultrasmurfs have given as much. Even if you read the fluff in the 40K rule book time line. It's the BA or the DA or the Templars that are mentioned or some other chapter far far removed from the Ultras.

I don't hate them but I won't accept that they are the best just cause GW say so or because their fanboys shout the loudest. The Ultramarines are simiple just not that great.

I don't see Calgar threating an Emperor class Titans pilot that he will blow the Titan's head off while he's still in it!!! if the damn thing won't fight for him.

Grimaldus FTW!

Lupe wrote:I'm just saying... defensive tactics against an outnumbering invader are probably found somewhere within the Codex.

The proper procedure to dealing with an Inquisitor who helped you out but the Inqusition thinks is a traitor probably doesn't get mentioned... Must of skipped Guilliman's mind...

perhaps not, but it probably does mention something about loyalty to the imperium and its leaders. Refusing to hand over a rouge inquisitor would probably be labeled as heresy or treason in the ultramarines chapter. As far as I know, the space wolves are the only chapter to make a habit of routinely defying the imperiums authority for various moral and ethical reasons. Other instances with other chapters may occur but they are probably few and far between. Defying imperial authority for moral qualms does not seem to be a trait of the ultramarines.

Karvick wrote:If you want a chapter that gives it's all for Humanity then read Helsreach and dare to tell me that there is chapter that does it better than the Black Templars. They fight to save Human lives even when there is no hope of survival.

They where the Chapter that won the 3rd war of Armageddon. I've yet to find a war where the Ultrasmurfs have given as much. Even if you read the fluff in the 40K rule book time line. It's the BA or the DA or the Templars that are mentioned or some other chapter far far removed from the Ultras.

I don't hate them but I won't accept that they are the best just cause GW say so or because their fanboys shout the loudest. The Ultramarines are simiple just not that great.

I don't see Calgar threating an Emperor class Titans pilot that he will blow the Titan's head off while he's still in it!!! if the damn thing won't fight for him.

Grimaldus FTW!

The 3rd War for Armageddon hasn't been won, it's a grinding stalemate.

The Ultramarines alongside the Blood Angels and Salamanders were the only Chapters who fought in the 2nd War for Armageddon, and of the loyalist Legions in the Heresy and Scouring only 2 others gave more than the Ultramarines to save the Imperium, the Salamanders and Raven Guard, but even so all 3 Legions lost over 90% of their man power fighting against the rebellion.

Really Codex: Space Marines has simply gone back to it's 2nd Edition roots by making the archetypal Codex Chapter the main focus of the Codex, at least in 5th Edition it's called Codex: Space Marines rather than Codex: Ultramarines

Note: The Codex doesn't just contain the view points and teaching of Guilliman, he included the methods of scores of military commanders, even the Traitor Primarchs teachings were included (specifically Perturabo's views on siegecraft) and the only thing Guilliman enforced in regards to his Codex was the break up of the Legions- for which he was supported whole heartedly by Corax of the Raven Guard and Jaghatai Khan of the White Scars.

Not sure how you can say only 2 legions gave more than the Ultramarines during the Heresy. Of all the legions Ultramarines probably had the least Causalties.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not sure how you can say only 2 legions gave more than the Ultramarines during the Heresy. Of all the legions Ultramarines probably had the least Causalties.

During the actual Heresy they did lose the least amount of men, percentage wise anyway, but during the Scouring (which lasted significantly longer than the Heresy) they lost roughly 90% of the Legion holding the Imperium together, whilst the Imperial Fists swanned around on their vengeance crusade completely abandoning humanity.

Where are you getting the info on the Great Scouring for Ultramarine losses? Most of the other chapters were torn up in the Heresy and/or the battles afterward (certainly between the Terra siege and their crusade to beat back the traitor legions the Fists took substantial casualties).

I'm not familiar with numbers of how badly torn up the Ultras became in the wake of the Heresy - any source book/link you can point me to?

Thor665 wrote:Where are you getting the info on the Great Scouring for Ultramarine losses? Most of the other chapters were torn up in the Heresy and/or the battles afterward (certainly between the Terra siege and their crusade to beat back the traitor legions the Fists took substantial casualties).

I'm not familiar with numbers of how badly torn up the Ultras became in the wake of the Heresy - any source book/link you can point me to?

The Ultramarines Legion was 250,000 strong at it's peak (ref. Horus Heresy: Collected Visions) and whilst some authors have scaled down the Legion sizes others have stayed true to GW's original idea, Gav Thorpe and Aaron Dembski-Bowden being the first that come to mind, by the end of the Scouring the Ultramarines were down to ~24,000 Marines (re. Codex: Space Marines, the UM founded 23 second founding Chapters) now that's obviously a steep drop in numbers at aabout 90.4% of the Legion destroyed.

Of course some people believe the Ultramarines were at max only 100,000 strong, but even so by the end of the Scouring that would still have left the Ultramarines at only 24% of their original strength.

I can even give you the exact percentage of the Raven Guard Legion that was destroyed during the Drop Site Massacre- 99.625%, out of 80,000 RG Astartes only 300 escaped (ref. Raven's Flight), and by the end of the Scouring the Legion had managed to get back to ~5% of their pre-Heresy numbers (this was of course aftre Corax executed all the abominations he created, I have no idea how their numbers would have affected the percentage)

I think that there were more than 300 RG left after the Massacre though, as weren't some 8K or so stationed around Deliverance?

Additionally, the HH Collected Visions is a rather... meh book to begin with, and somewhat lame in terms of background.

I prefer the much better written and researched INDEX ASTARTES articles myself, though they don't cover everything...

Alpharius wrote:I think that there were more than 300 RG left after the Massacre though, as weren't some 8K or so stationed around Deliverance?

Additionally, the HH Collected Visions is a rather... meh book to begin with, and somewhat lame in terms of background.

I prefer the much better written and researched INDEX ASTARTES articles myself, though they don't cover everything...

Whilst I don't really agree on your opinion regarding Collected Visions I do with Index Astartes- superb source material, but none of it disputes the HH: CV stuff (and of course the HH: CV was partially written and overseen by one of the fathers of 40k- Alan Merret). In fact it's the IA stuff that provided me with the necessary info to conclude the Scouring could have lasted up to a century (so between the Siege of Terra and the breakup of the Legion a century might have passed).

Raven Guard- I'm not sure how many were left at Deliverance, even if 8,000 were left that would still place the RG at having lost 90% of the Legion rather than 99%.

baronspikey wrote:The Ultramarines Legion was 250,000 strong at it's peak (ref. Horus Heresy: Collected Visions) and whilst some authors have scaled down the Legion sizes others have stayed true to GW's original idea, Gav Thorpe and Aaron Dembski-Bowden being the first that come to mind, by the end of the Scouring the Ultramarines were down to ~24,000 Marines (re. Codex: Space Marines, the UM founded 23 second founding Chapters) now that's obviously a steep drop in numbers at aabout 90.4% of the Legion destroyed.

But wasn't it also specifically noted that they were the largest chapter at the time and that's why they were able to create so many second founding chapters? Do we know the size of other Pre-Heresy Legions as compared to Ultramarines? I only recall them being called the biggest after the Heresy, but not before or during which would tend to suggest that their casualties were less then other Legions.

We have the 250.000 figure explicitly stated in the Collected visions, true. But it seems that there are several indirect mentions that the Ultramarines were by far the largest legion, and only the Word Bearers came a distant second.

One example comes to mind: Horus Rising

Torgaddon is trying to resolve a dispute between Sigismund and Loken, and says something to this extent.

"The wolves of Fenris are the greatest legion, but they're all clinically insane. Of the sane legions, probably the Ultramarines, but there's so damn many of them"

That puts them at about 90% losses, like the rest of the Legions. Only that 90% means a lot more if the legion is by far the largest.

Alan Merret is someone I remain very unimpressed with.

Some of his recent additions are downright silly.

And he royally screwed up the whole psyker/sorcerer thing via the 'revised' Council of Nikaea.

The old background basically had it as (from the old Index Astartes article on the Thousand Sons):

"There were those amongst the Imperial court suspicious of the Thousand Sons' methods. Paramount amongst them was Mortarion, sepulchral lord of the Death Guard who knew too well from his own dark past that sorcerous power never came without a price. Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, for whom any battle fought through sleight of hand and clever deceit was by definition dishonourable also lent his voice to the critics of the Thousand Sons. The schism grew so great that it threatened the very foundations of the new order, and so the Emperor of Man himself decreed a council to resolve the issue for all time.

The mightiest proponents of both sides convened on the planet Nikaea to debate, with the Emperor himself enthroned above the dais as arbiter, in an ancient amphitheatre that seated tens of thousands. There, beneath the glittering starlight, the witch hunters presented their case. They recited a litany of human misery inflicted upon the Emperor's own subjects by sorcerers enslaved by Chaotic monstrosities; of mutants unable to control what they had become, and despots who turned their psychic gifts to dark and selfish purpose. To speak against these charges came Magnus himself. He climbed the dais in silence, his own visage seeming to confirm everything the witch hunters asserted.

But when he began to speak, it was clear none of his accusers could match the charisma or presence of a Space Marines Primarch and least of all this particular Primarch's certainty of conviction. Magnus told the assembled throng that no knowledge was tainted of itself, and no pursuit of knowledge ever wrong so long as the seeker of that truth was master of what he learned. And, Magnus decreed with finality, there were no secrets the Thousand Sons had not mastered, no ways too labyrinthine for them to know. When he stepped from the dais, the council was divided more sharply than ever: the witch hunters had made their case collectively with great impact, but with insufficient power to blunt the persuasiveness of the Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The assemblage openly wondered if even the Emperor could decide against one of his own sons.

The tension had reached the palpable knife-edge of violence when a contingent of Space Marine Librarians approached the dais. The Emperor acknowledged them with a nod and all fell silent, for visible amongst the librarians were the chiefs of some of the greatest Legions in the Imperium. These mystic warriors formed a semicircle about the podium to indicate they spoke with one voice, but it was a young Epistolary who stepped forward to deliver their words. Though his identity has been lost to history, he is said to have spoken with a passion that bordered on ferocity, and offered to the assembled council a third alternative. A psyker, he proposed, like an athlete, was a gifted individual whose native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other Librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve Mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind.

The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. The Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation. But it was not the decision favoured by Magnus. The Grimoire Hereticus records the fateful face-to-face confrontation between father and son when the Emperor himself barred Magnus's attempt to storm from the hall in protest. He bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic. It is said the cyclopean Primarch's face appeared brittle as aged stone as he received his father's command. Brittle enough to crack, but the Primarch of the Thousand Sons bent his shoulder and pledged himself and his Legion to obey. Neither Emperor nor Primarch knew that this moment would be the last time they would meet, and that events had been set in motion that would climax in treachery, bloodshed and pain."

Compare this to the new version, which makes... no sense.

In fact, they ALMOST 'fixed' it in the recent "THOUSAND SONS" book, but then chickened out and went Merret with it.

I think the new background now has it that the Council of Nikaea banned entirely the use of Librarians/Psykers...?

Makes no sense at all, and I am VERY interested to see how they're going to find a way out of this mess.