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Just a comment on Ultramarines being impersonal and concerned with humanity as a whole rather than humans themselves: In Nightbringer, Uriel, an Ultramarines captain, balks at declaring Exterminatus on an inhabited planet, even if it helps the rest of humanity in the galaxy (So the Nightbringer escapes).

In Warriors of Ultramar, Uriel and the admiral of a Strike Cruiser, Tiberius, once again show extreme hatred of simply declaring exterminatus, even if it does help humanity in the long run. Uriel also gives a purity seal to one of the normal soldiers who saves him during the fight against the Tyranids, personally showing thanks.

Now, those are just two of the Ultramarines (One of whom would be shortly excommunicated for an unrelated lapse of rules), but it still definitely shows that some marines in the chapter are willing to defend individuals. Does that mean all Ultramarines are like that? No, but it does mean that the Chapter is not completely without a touch of respect for individuals in warfare.

I'll shift gear a bit, from discussing Ultramarines to the Space Wolves. Your point sees them as only caring about humans if they're proven worthy. I would rather disagree... For all their near-barbaric habits, and their quick tempers, the Wolves are probably most in touch with the rest of humanity... the countless billions who do not become Astartes.

It's because they go off to get drunk to celebrate their latest success, and because they hit on the barmaid, and they punch each other senseless every now and then. For them, life is not as different from that of a mortal.

They know full well what regular humans expect from life, and they understand how much harder a man will fight for it, rather than out of duty, because they're living it.

I'm only bringing this up because it provides an interesting contrast to the Ultramarines. Ultramarines genuinely don't mean their subjects any harm, and they will actually go out of their way to protect them and keep them comfortable. The difference is, the Ultramarines have other views on life compared to those they rule over. For them, every minute not spent fighting is another minute they devote to fulfilling their duty in other ways: as teachers, as governors, as scholars, whatever... In a way, the Ultramarines look down on their people... not in a demeaning or arrogant way, rather like a parent or a teacher. The Wolves... they're the big brother who uses his ID to buy beer or teaches you to throw a punch...

Neither of these is the right answer, simply cause there isn't any. What's important is they're actually the really good guys in a galaxy of bad and worse...

Necroman wrote:Just a comment on Ultramarines being impersonal and concerned with humanity as a whole rather than humans themselves: In Nightbringer, Uriel, an Ultramarines captain, balks at declaring Exterminatus on an inhabited planet, even if it helps the rest of humanity in the galaxy (So the Nightbringer escapes).

In Warriors of Ultramar, Uriel and the admiral of a Strike Cruiser, Tiberius, once again show extreme hatred of simply declaring exterminatus, even if it does help humanity in the long run. Uriel also gives a purity seal to one of the normal soldiers who saves him during the fight against the Tyranids, personally showing thanks.

Now, those are just two of the Ultramarines (One of whom would be shortly excommunicated for an unrelated lapse of rules), but it still definitely shows that some marines in the chapter are willing to defend individuals. Does that mean all Ultramarines are like that? No, but it does mean that the Chapter is not completely without a touch of respect for individuals in warfare.

IIRC it's mentioned in one of the codices too, but in the Fire Warrior game and novel the Ultramarines are impressed with how the Tau fought Chaos and allow them to withdraw from the planet before declaring Exterminatus.


@Manchu Oh, I wasn't arguing that the Codex Astartes was bad, just pointing out the opposing viewpoint.

Though, I can think of a couple of major conflicts in the history of the Imperium where the turnout could have been interesting if, say Dante or Calgar, could have called upon the might of a full Legion of marines instead of a handful of chapters.

The battles for Macragge and Armageddon come to mind.

Well, a tyrant is someone who exercises authority illegitimately so I agree that the UM aren't tyrants. That doesn't mean, however, that they care about individuals. No, their perogative is the order of Ultramar--and ultimately of the Imperium at large. The SW don't have a sub-empire like the UM. This is not because they are incapable of carving one out but rather because they have no interest in being rulers. They are not the caretakers or protectors of Fenris. They are the sons of Fenris, wild and savage like their world. And they value the courage of "mortals" and acre for those who share their values of courage and honor. Humans who are cowardly or debased, however, must suffer the fate of all such cravens--5eath and damnation. For the UM, broadly speaking at least, it does not matter. Mortals are mortals: they all need to be ruled.

Lupe wrote:I'll shift gear a bit, from discussing Ultramarines to the Space Wolves. Your point sees them as only caring about humans if they're proven worthy. I would rather disagree... For all their near-barbaric habits, and their quick tempers, the Wolves are probably most in touch with the rest of humanity... the countless billions who do not become Astartes.

It's because they go off to get drunk to celebrate their latest success, and because they hit on the barmaid, and they punch each other senseless every now and then. For them, life is not as different from that of a mortal.

They know full well what regular humans expect from life, and they understand how much harder a man will fight for it, rather than out of duty, because they're living it.

I'm only bringing this up because it provides an interesting contrast to the Ultramarines. Ultramarines genuinely don't mean their subjects any harm, and they will actually go out of their way to protect them and keep them comfortable. The difference is, the Ultramarines have other views on life compared to those they rule over. For them, every minute not spent fighting is another minute they devote to fulfilling their duty in other ways: as teachers, as governors, as scholars, whatever... In a way, the Ultramarines look down on their people... not in a demeaning or arrogant way, rather like a parent or a teacher. The Wolves... they're the big brother who uses his ID to buy beer or teaches you to throw a punch...

Neither of these is the right answer, simply cause there isn't any. What's important is they're actually the really good guys in a galaxy of bad and worse...

Given the support the Ultras have amongst the worlds under their charge - and how much support they have from the Imperium at large- I think the goals of the Ultramarines and the common folk of the Imperium (continued and ever lasting supremacy of the Human race as a unified state, coupled with living conditions that allow you to actually enjoy life - particularly compared to what your average hive or forge world 'citizen' gets to live through) are largely the same. I mean, the Ultarmarines strive for perfection, mainly through the tenets of the codex astartes (and yet, have been shown to be able to change and adapt, as shown by the Tyranid wars) and its a perfection that's done to achieve what they were created to do: safe guard Humanity, by becoming the ultimate pinnacle of what is possible for a human to be - even if you have to 'enhance' a human via various surgeries and implants to do it. [As a note, I'm definitely one to view the Space Marines as still being fundamentally Human, in spite of everything that they've gone through to make them into Astartes.] I'd be willing to bet those PDF regiments on the Ultramarine governed planets probably would put any IG regiment from Cadia to Catachan, and from Mordia to Valhalla to shame.

I agree with the Ultramarines being something a parent or teacher - I mean, I think were the conversation has gone with pointing out that they are still essentially dictators (though rather enlightened and benevolent) so that is to be expected. Certainly it fits in with some of the character flaws Guilliman himself had of being a 'mini-emperor' in terms of a 'father knows best' attitude.

But I dont particularly view the wolves as being closer to humanity - in terms of gene seed they have the blessing/curse of being somewhat mutated; and certainly in the time of the heresy, they operated like a pack of wolves, ferocious and with out mercy - where the Ultramarines sought to make the best for humanity, the Luna Wolves sought to be the champions of humanity, the Thousand sons sought to make more out of humanity, The Blood Angels to embody what is good in humanity, The Iron Hands to 'build' a better version of humanity (in their own special way ), the Emperors Children to become the perfection of humanity (and the list can go out for all the Legions) the Space Wolves are the attack dogs of humanity. Which is incredibly noble - that is their purpose to be a noble embodiment of the wild and primitive nature of human, that part is isnt perhaps wholly human. And it's makes them some of the best Astartes.

But I'll personally take a pass on them if your trying to convince me they have my best interest at heart. I go to the bar, get drunk and hit on wenches too - but I'll pass on being the insular and xenophobic (and in this case, that term applies just as much to other groups of Humans and Astartes as it dose Aliens) tradition bound sons of Russ who know no mildness in their demeanor, existing in many ways with only an 'on' and 'off' switch. The Ultramarines may be dull and dour by comparison (though I'd be willing to bet just as many space bastards have been sired by the Ultras, and then some ) but I'd say they are significantly more likely to treat me like a worthwhile human being right off the bat, and should I prove myself worthy of higher honors they'd be more then willing to award them, and that a very good life can be earned under the stewardship of the Ultras - one that could indeed even have great ramifications beyond the Ultramarines realm.

The Spacewolves however arnt actively malicious, or anything close to that - its that they are insular, don't like change, don't particularly like strangers... and in other words are just as much wolf as man. The wolves function as being the ferocious attack dogs of the Human race is one that doesn't steer them purposefully to being 'closer' to Humanity; particularly compared to the Ultras, whom embody an ideal of Human society that -barring the whole no democracy; or at least no democratic bodies that have any authority over the Ultras- quite frankly, every one on the interwebz can identify with. (After all; you'll never have to worry about a corrupt government taking bribes of cash from corporations to do nasty things with the Ultras in charge. Bribery reeks of a good reason to break out the chain swords; and as all of Ultramar is geared first for providing for the Ultramarines, and making the realm of Ultramar self sufficient there arnt any particular ways I can think of bribing one.)

Space Wolves and Ultramarines arnt just different chapters, or approach things if different manners - they embody two different concepts; if the Ultramarines are view as the perfection of Space marine chapters, it cannot just be because of their record of martial prowess - because despite either being the equal or better of any other chapter, its the ideals the Ultramarines embody, and their connection to the rest of humanity as being the only real 'good [bolter and power sword armed] sheppards' that make them the greatest heroes of the Imperium.



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Manchu wrote:Well, a tyrant is someone who exercises authority illegitimately so I agree that the UM aren't tyrants. That doesn't mean, however, that they care about individuals. No, their perogative is the order of Ultramar--and ultimately of the Imperium at large. The SW don't have a sub-empire like the UM. This is not because they are incapable of carving one out but rather because they have no interest in being rulers. They are not the caretakers or protectors of Fenris. They are the sons of Fenris, wild and savage like their world. And they value the courage of "mortals" and acre for those who share their values of courage and honor. Humans who are cowardly or debased, however, must suffer the fate of all such cravens--5eath and damnation. For the UM, broadly speaking at least, it does not matter. Mortals are mortals: they all need to be ruled.

If the Guilliman and the Ultramarines truly had the ideal of 'Mortals are mortals: they all need to be ruled.' at heart, then I think 40k would largly be about rebel forces fighting to be free of the tyrannical Galactic Emperor Guilliman.

Rather, or at least its my argument that, the Ultramarines rule for the purpose of ensuring human supremacy - but a supremacy that dose not merely leave humanity as the sole dominant power in the galaxy, but allows us to enjoy the position of being on top to boot.

I'm only bringing this up because it provides an interesting contrast to the Ultramarines. Ultramarines genuinely don't mean their subjects any harm, and they will actually go out of their way to protect them and keep them comfortable. The difference is, the Ultramarines have other views on life compared to those they rule over. For them, every minute not spent fighting is another minute they devote to fulfilling their duty in other ways: as teachers, as governors, as scholars, whatever... In a way, the Ultramarines look down on their people... not in a demeaning or arrogant way, rather like a parent or a teacher. The Wolves... they're the big brother who uses his ID to buy beer or teaches you to throw a punch...

Lol I like it's very accurate.

My personal belief is that UMs protect humans because they believe it's their duty while SWs do it because they genuinly care. They are easily the most human chapter and they think very similar to normal fenrisians. It's this ability to connect with humans that makes them so popular. They have fought hard to survive on fenris so they can apreciate what the average IG goes through and it's there individuality from the rest of the imperium that lets them see when the imperium is mistreating it's people.

And yet beyond issuing formal complaints, curses and threats, they don't and cant do much of anything about it: at least the Ultramarines actually have crafted a small Empire where humanity can exist and live a life far better then a great deal of the rest of the world in the Imperium.

I just dont see any sustained evidence that the Wolves are what you say they are, beyond people wanting to believe that because they stuck up for a bunch of guys one time on Armageddon (which was indeed the right thing to do), and traditionally get drunk and brawl back on their Viking themed home world. I really dont see where the theme of the Space Wolves actually caring come from, unless those Humans already embody what the space wolves care about - which certainly isnt humanity as its own concept.

@Carl: You really need to read some BL books, my friend. You've really mischaracterized the Wolves--or maybe just bought into the Thousand Sons' viewpoint. Check out the SW story in Tales of Heresy and you will see how they really empathize with the mortals even when they can't be on the same side.


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Additionally, what could the UM have done at First Armageddon? We'll never know for sure. But at the very most, Calgar could not have accomplished more than the same furious but ultimately frustrated reaction as Grimnar. IMO, he might have even agreed with the Administratum. I wonder what happens to citizens of Ultramar unfortunate enough to stumble upon knowledge of Chaos . . .

Will do - I have access to that book, and I'll make use of it!
If I stand correctled, I'll hardly moan about it

However, yes - I have pretty much sided with the Thousand Sons depiction of the Wolves because:

A) I largely see the deception (that to be, was implied ot have been ordered by Russ) to infiltrate the Thousand Sons trust with one of the wolves own psykers one of the main reasons that lead to the destruction of Imperial access to the web way, and the damnation of the Thousand Sons (how might the trial at Nikaea if Ohthere Wyrdmake had not condemned the Thousand Sons? Its possible the trial may have had the same conclusion, but certainly if it hadn't been for Russ and Mortarion instigating the trial, the issue wouldn't have come to that head - and if so, its not unreasonable to assume that the Imperium would have web way access, which we all know the benefits of. Even if Magnus would eventually have had to have been condemned for sorcery, Russ' and Mortarions' fear and distrust would cost everyone.)

B) However, a more concrete point I have that has dissuaded me from looking at the wolves with an eye other then appraising them strictly for what the're worth would be their actions against the sub-human Avenians on Heliosa in the Ark Reach cluster. Not content to merely commit genocide, the Wolves add insult to injury by destroying everything no one will know what potential information that would have been useful to the Imperium had lain in what was destroyed the Wolves - and no one will ever know just what precious technologies or insights the wolves have burned and crushed when unleashed against the enemies of Mankind. (or course, Lorgar is probably to blame for there being a war on Heliosa at all...)

Otherise, we'll never know of what the UM would have done on Armegeddon - but it is very realistic to say that the only two chapters that one could realistically expect to have made the same impact as the wolves would be either the Ultramarines, or the Blood Angels. (No matter how much I'd like to insert the Iron Snakes into that statement ) and if at least a few Ultramarines speak of anti-exterminatus sentiments perhaps its a common view among Ultramarines. or maybe even Astartes in general, since the Celestial lions got in trouble for that point of view, and I dont see the Salamanders as being Exterminatus friendly either. (Though I can see the Dark Angels bringing weenies and marshmallows to the roast)

What about my point regarding those citizens of Ultramar who stumble upon knowledge of Chaos? Let's not delude ourselves as to how that paradise is maintained. And regarding Heliosa, I think you may be bringing an IRL moral perspective into 40k--either that or you're a heretic, lol.


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Also, regarding Nikaea, a lot of people seem to assume that Russ or Mortarion or Horus or all or some of them tricked the Emperor concerning Magnus. Makes far more sense to me--although I admit that it's speculation--that the Emperor was convinced (and correctly, too) that Magnus was corrupt and directed the Wolves' actions at Nikaea through Russ. I've had a very heated exchange on these topics elsewhere. I'll provide the link later as I am currently on my cell.

I can't see the Smurfs as being a moral compass in 40k when they commit genocide as readily as any other force

Carlovonsexron you should try to read the history part of the SW codex if you want more info on the way they treat others.

Another example of SW protecting individuals I found in the codex is Called the "Daemonbane war".

Space Wolf Codex Page 19
The radical Inquisitor Lord Querrian turns chaos against itself upon the daemon infested world of Yaogeddon. Sven Bloodhowl's Great Company, themselves battling the daemonic hordes at Yaogeddon's molten core are astonished when the legions of Khorne and Slaanesh turn on each other to the exclusion of all else. The astonished Sven orders his men to hold off and when the dust settles Sven and Querrian join forces to mop up the reamainder of the daemonic horde with ease.

Days later the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus arive to execute Querrian for his heretical and unorthodox methods. Sven intervenes, bristling with indignation at what he percieves as a gorss injustice. The Ordo Malleus do not back down and war is declared under a full moon. Though the Space wolves eventually desist is is not until Sven's actions have bought Querrian enough time to escape.

If the UM had just been saved by Querrian I doubt they would try and save him. They are more likely to arrest him, hand him over then claim they captured the a dangerous chaos cultist.

4M2A wrote:Carlovonsexron you should try to read the history part of the SW codex if you want more info on the way they treat others.

Another example of SW protecting individuals I found in the codex is Called the "Daemonbane war".

Space Wolf Codex Page 19
The radical Inquisitor Lord Querrian turns chaos against itself upon the daemon infested world of Yaogeddon. Sven Bloodhowl's Great Company, themselves battling the daemonic hordes at Yaogeddon's molten core are astonished when the legions of Khorne and Slaanesh turn on each other to the exclusion of all else. The astonished Sven orders his men to hold off and when the dust settles Sven and Querrian join forces to mop up the reamainder of the daemonic horde with ease.

Days later the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus arive to execute Querrian for his heretical and unorthodox methods. Sven intervenes, bristling with indignation at what he percieves as a gorss injustice. The Ordo Malleus do not back down and war is declared under a full moon. Though the Space wolves eventually desist is is not until Sven's actions have bought Querrian enough time to escape.

If the UM had just been saved by Querrian I doubt they would try and save him. They are more likely to arrest him, hand him over then claim they captured the a dangerous chaos cultist.

But why would you assume that? There is no proof. You are making your point with "I think they would..."
Well, you know what, I think that if the wolves were at the Battle for Macragge, the tyranids would have eaten them!

i dont like the UM cuz there isn't that 3D to their character which the other chapters have. if they had that, even if it was slight i think i would like them a lot more. the good moral code they hold brings me to like them, but the lack of any 3D bothers me and turns me away from them.

Manchu wrote:What about my point regarding those citizens of Ultramar who stumble upon knowledge of Chaos? Let's not delude ourselves as to how that paradise is maintained. And regarding Heliosa, I think you may be bringing an IRL moral perspective into 40k--either that or you're a heretic, lol.

In so far as the Citizens of Ultramar who discover chaos, its hard to say - probably interrogation, and then either execution or solitary institutionalization; but considering that in the 40k universe... chaos really is unequivocally bad, do any other options even exist?

Also, regarding Nikaea, a lot of people seem to assume that Russ or Mortarion or Horus or all or some of them tricked the Emperor concerning Magnus. Makes far more sense to me--although I admit that it's speculation--that the Emperor was convinced (and correctly, too) that Magnus was corrupt and directed the Wolves' actions at Nikaea through Russ. I've had a very heated exchange on these topics elsewhere. I'll provide the link later as I am currently on my cell.

They way I read the book, it seemed like the Emperor wasn't so much tricked into anything regarding his decision at Niaea, rather he was forced to deal with an issue he had by and large been willing to either ignore or overlook due to his own relationship with the warp, and his relationship with Magnus. The Astartes were coming into contact with Chaos and Warp Powers at the far flung borders of the still expanding Imperium, and the Emperor was now forced to deal with how the Astartes were going to deal with it - since Mortarion and Russ obviously feared and mistrusted the warp. (though the latter was perfectly willing to use is if you just dressed it up as being 'traditional Fenrisian activity' which smacks of hypocrisy, or extreme xenophobia.)

The bigger question is, with both Mortarion and Russ condemning Magnus, what would have happened after Nikaea if the Emperor had ruled in favor of Magnus?

Manchu wrote:But the Codex has stood the test of time. There have been no significant heresies among the Marines since the days of Horus.

Huron?

Omegus wrote:

Manchu wrote:But the Codex has stood the test of time. There have been no significant heresies among the Marines since the days of Horus.

Huron?

Leads a Renegade Chapter/Raider Warhost.

Not quite anything near half of the original Legions turning to Chaos.

Carlovonsexron wrote:In so far as the Citizens of Ultramar who discover chaos, its hard to say - probably interrogation, and then either execution or solitary institutionalization; but considering that in the 40k universe... chaos really is unequivocally bad, do any other options even exist?

That is indeed the question. And I think the implied answer of "no" adequately summarizes Calgar's hypothetical response to Grimnar's quandary at First Armageddon. Klawz points out above that there is no proof. That's true. But there is logic, which you have demonstrated admirably.

Another interesting situation is when the SW are defending a world from a tyranid invasion. After the tyranid attack reaches it's peak the Imperial Command gives the order to avacuate and leave the civilians of Thessiax to die, and then attack the nids in space. The SW leading the attack disagrees but can't leave the battle so sends 2 squads of Grey Hunters to defend the Space port while everyone else leaves.

The grey hunters defend the port for a few days, and as the tyranids get closer train the humans to defend the port the best they can. The Sw and humans manage to hold of the attack until the humans have escaped, but most of the SWs die protecting the humans. when the last 6 SW escape they are punished by the imperial command and command orders them to be stripped of their honours. Instead the SW commander promotes them to his personal wolfguard.

Here the SWs disobeyed imperial command and gave up there own lives to save a small number of humans.

Although there is no proof from the parts of their character we see I doubt that UM would disobey imperial command and I am certain they wouldn't die for them.

Manchu wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:In so far as the Citizens of Ultramar who discover chaos, its hard to say - probably interrogation, and then either execution or solitary institutionalization; but considering that in the 40k universe... chaos really is unequivocally bad, do any other options even exist?

That is indeed the question. And I think the implied answer of "no" adequately summarizes Calgar's hypothetical response to Grimnar's quandary at First Armageddon. Klawz points out above that there is no proof. That's true. But there is logic, which you have demonstrated admirably.

No so fast, I think- that same logic applies to the Space Wolves as well, in fact even more so, given their long standing distrust of sorcery, and longstanding hatred of Chaos. If the Space Wolves can manage to have surmounted these biases to stick up for potentially tainted soldiery, you certainly cant assume that the generally more level headed Ultramarines do not have the same chance.

But as someone mentioned earlier 'The Ultramarines will never have to face that type of moral dilemma' for simple virtue of fluff writing. And if they did, can you really see the fluff as being written in any other way then the Ultramarines again being the good guy saviors?

Actually, it's the Wolves who wouldn't have to face such a choice--given that they don't try and manage their own mini-Imperium. The UMs put themselves into just such a situation. That's why Grimnar could afford to be mad--while Marneus Calgar would most likely have gone right along with the Administratum. You can say it reflects poorly on the UM, I guess. But this thread is called "Defending the Ultramarines" and I say this kind of thing gives them character. They can and do make tough decisions. In fact, their Primarch made one of the toughest decisions in all of the fluff--imposing the Codex Astartes at the risk of civil war when the Imeprium was at its weakest. It was a gamble, sure, and people criticize Guilliman as arrogant for this reason. But, as I've always said, the Codex has kept the SM in check by and large. The SW might never go along with enslaving the brave souls who had the gumption to fight off the traitor and the daemon but they also could never pull together something like the Codex. For the same reason, really: they just don't have the UM discipline.

4M2A wrote:Here the SWs disobeyed imperial command and gave up there own lives to save a small number of humans.

Although there is no proof from the parts of their character we see I doubt that UM would disobey imperial command and I am certain they wouldn't die for them.

I would agree with this assessment. Not to inject D&D into the discussion, but SW would be chaotic good, while Ultras would be lawful good. Both have what's best for the hummies in mind, but the Ultras are more likely to be constrained by their rigid adherence to the rule of law and respect for chains of authority. I can very much picture the average Ultramarine as the uptight Paladin who arrests the roguish/Robin Hood-esque characters for criminal activity even though their actions are by and large benevolent.

Omegus thats exactly my problem with UM . SW will always do what they see as the morally right thing regards less of the rules, whereas UM do what is lawfully right regardless of the morals.

In my opinion thats what makes them boring and predictable.

Being seen as the perfect marines even when they are more interested in the rules than doing the right thing just makes me more anoyed by them. This treatment makes them appear very arrogant when the disagree with other chapters for doing what has to be done in the circumstance. I would much prefer SW were the example of perfect marines as thats my opinion of them.

Space Wolves are mutants and heretics.

What? no more than BA, and salamanders.

4M2A wrote:What? no more than BA, and salamanders.

Well, probably a bit more than Sallies. I'm right there with you on the BAs, however.

Manchu wrote:Actually, it's the Wolves who wouldn't have to face such a choice--given that they don't try and manage their own mini-Imperium. The UMs put themselves into just such a situation. That's why Grimnar could afford to be mad--while Marneus Calgar would most likely have gone right along with the Administratum. You can say it reflects poorly on the UM, I guess. But this thread is called "Defending the Ultramarines" and I say this kind of thing gives them character. They can and do make tough decisions. In fact, their Primarch made one of the toughest decisions in all of the fluff--imposing the Codex Astartes at the risk of civil war when the Imeprium was at its weakest. It was a gamble, sure, and people criticize Guilliman as arrogant for this reason. But, as I've always said, the Codex has kept the SM in check by and large. The SW might never go along with enslaving the brave souls who had the gumption to fight off the traitor and the daemon but they also could never pull together something like the Codex. For the same reason, really: they just don't have the UM discipline.

Perhaps - In this regard I will admit that your reasoning is quite good, but since the chapter tolerates amongst its members individual who disagree with exterminatus, you cannot take your argument as a solid conclusion by any means.

I suspect the Ultramarine book (I read around here on Dakka some where it is to be a trilogy) dealing with the Horus Heresy will shed some light for everyone on just what the true 'guiding light' of the Ultramarines is, and to what extent they follow that.

However, I'm still not totally convinced that in their reckless abandon, the Space Wolves can be considered 'good' - perhaps better then the average chapter (but not unique) in terms of how they might treat the average human - but I remain very unconvinced about the merits of how well the Wolves will treat an average human as compared to the Ultras.

Ha, I think you're more worred about how the SW treat a legion of arrogant, super-human psykers rather than the average human.

Not so much the treatment of the Thousand sons was worrying, in so much as the fact that they leave no knowledge in their wake. They destroy everything - which for an Imperium for whoms' basis of technology is from rediscovering STC tech, would be a cardinal sin of the greatest proportions - if chaos wasnt there to more clearly define the term

I doubt the Iron Priests would allow such sacrilege . . . except he would talk of it as a matter of weal and woe.