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@JimSolo: I get the explanation. I just don't get how it applies to Ultramarines. The world of 40k is pretty far from the mainstream. I don't buy that Ultramarines stand in for Britney Spears and High School Musical. As I've said before, this is a matter of 12 year olds who love Ultramarines growing up to be 16 years olds who hate them. But 16 year olds usually get over themselves in a few years.

@IGLannister: Your post constitutes more evidence for KamikazeCanuck's observations two pages ago. And very likely my own above, as well.

To be honest, the fact that Roboute is a "jerkwad and a douchebag" makes the Ultramarines background far more interesting.

I'd actually like the fluff to play that tune more. Righteous, chivalrous, but annoying the rest of the Imperium by being just a bit too perfect.

As it stands now, they're righteous, chivalrous, and the rest of the Imperium would very much rather carve them statues.

Also, I do have some beef with the whole Codex: Space Marines = Codex: Ultramarines thing that's been going around. There are a lot of other interesting codex chapters out there, and I'll understand if the Ultramarines get some more air time than the others, with their old man writing the codex and all. But damn it... 6 out eleven special characters in the book are ultramarines... honestly... And neither of them actually seems to be a jerk... Isn't the whole chain of "highly-decorated-bastions-of-morality-capable-of-feats-an-Astartes-shouldn't-even-pull-off "getting just a bit repetitive for you guys?

I could actually like Calgar more if he was an arrogant bastard, for instance, simply because it would give his character some kind of depth...

Rowboat gets all pissy about his Codex Astartes. He doesn't care that these other Primarchs were actually defending Terra from Horus while Big Blue and his Douchemarines were picking their asses.

ID be mad too if that scumbag told me to split my troops cause they're too powerful. The moron wasn't even there, but he thinks he can dictate how to operate chapters of marines that held chaos at bay?

Like I said. Douchebag/jerkwad.

@Lupe: People always complain that the Ultramarines "perfection" makes them boring. Take a look at the world of 40k and you'll realize that's actually what makes them unique.

@IGLanniseter: Actually, Horus sent the largest portion of the Word Bearers in a feint against the Ultramarines. Although Guilliman ultimately triumphed over Lorgar, he had been drawn quite far from Terra. Would you criticize Leman Russ or Jagahti Kahn for not being at Terra when Horus finally made it there? Do I even need to bring up the Lion on this score?

Manchu wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:I really dont think the people on Fenris are all that happy about their lot in life, save the victorious warlords and their tribes, and those who get to be Space marines,

That's like saying "the only people that are happy are the happy people." Ridiculous. I suggest you read some William King before trying to make any more points about the Space Wolves or Fenris.

Well perhaps it was badly worded, though I think it still has salience to it. It hard to interpret the Space Wolves as being all that humanitarian when the primary reason they stick up for people is because they were good killers; perhaps I'm totally wrong about Fenris' ability to be terraformed (I'll more then accept that I could be - and perhaps even am) but its not like that, even baring actual physical reconstruction of the planted life couldnt be made more manageable - and that if the reason the population of Fenris are proud of their warrior traditions because it makes them great warriors and space marines, all the needs to be done is to look upon chapter like the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists to see that some of the finest chapters need no such life to be turned into the Emperors great champions.

And what Fenris amounts to is alot of unneeded death and bloodshed - but thats my take on it, and I hope it reads as more reasonable then some of my other posts.

Key word: feints. If myself and a bunch of my brothers died protecting Holy Terra from Horus, and Mr Big Shot comes along and says, "Hey, fellas, let's split everyone up so no one becomes too powerful. Yeah, I know you had this big war, and I was getting the run-around, my bad, but serious, we gotta split you all up.", yeah, ID be mad.

That's my issue with the smurfs. And the way im putting it, I def think ID have the support of a few primarchs behind me. Who is this fool that thinks all the sudden he gets to call the shots? While they were guarding the Capitol of the Imperium from wave after wave of chaos marines, demons, and god only knows what else, Smurfette and his Goons are playing tag in deep space? Come on.


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As for the Lion and old Leman, were not talking about them are we?

In the big picture Gulliman prevented himself from becoming Emperor himself; he had the power to do it if he had wanted to, and if the Primarchs had come to blows over the codex, no one was left in a position to stop Gulliman from stomping over the rest of the legions with his own - already larger then all the others before the heresy, and totally fresh from not fighting wave after wave of chaos marines, demons, and god only knows what else

He did a noble act - he ensured that he would never be able to become Emperor himself, along with no one else being able to claim that title either.

The Codex Astartes WAS a good idea.

Not only did it forever prevent a further Heresy, and the full might of one (or more) Space Marine legions from being at the whim of a single leader, but it also made cooperation between the chapters easier, because the differences would not be as great as between individual legions. Each commander could, of course, choose the approach he felt more comfortable with, but in the end all other chapters would be aware of what to expect from their allies.

It also represented a great innovation, one that no other primarch had dared or cared to attempt. It was a a refined and distilled military treatise, but in the bigger picture, it was supposed to be just a crude method to adapt to changing times, just the first step down an evolutionary path stretching across millennia.

It wasn't even restricted to Guilliman's own tactical opinions. It incorporated some of Perturabo's methods of siege warfare; Magnus' mastery over the Warp; Corax's guerilla doctrines, and more...

But, in the end, the Imperium saw it - in no part due to his own aggressive marketing campaign - as Guilliman's move to establish the superiority of his own ways. And when it was finally and grudgingly accepted, the Adeptus Astartes took it as gospel, rather than guidelines. Instead of evolving with it, they dragged it into stagnation, clinging to it to justify every decision. And, when times changed once again, and the dying Imperium was stabilized, they began to respect it to the letter rather than in spirit, resulting in an Imperium that was about as inflexible as before, but without the capacity for further expansion...

What the Chapters turned the Codex Astartes into can not be blamed on Guilliman, regardless of how much you hate the man, or how much a jerk he comes across as...




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Manchu wrote:@Lupe: People always complain that the Ultramarines "perfection" makes them boring. Take a look at the world of 40k and you'll realize that's actually what makes them unique.

It does, it really does. I just wished that perfection would annoy their contemporaries a bit... You know, a bit of envy... Heroes without flaws ran out of style at the end of the middle ages, and while a good chivalric story is something I can appreciate, it seems like poor penmanship to try and fit them into a setting so dark that it's no longer about shades of gray but shades of black and all-consuming-light-sucking-void.

More than any other Primarch, Guilliman is the anti-Horus. He should have been made Warmaster, as he himself knew. What he did not know--what none of us know--is what the Emperor truly intended with regards to what would eventually become the Heresy. Some people believe the Emperor was blind to Horus's faults. That sounds like heresy if I ever heard it. The truth, therefore, is likely more complicated. The fact that Ultramar is most like what the Emperor claimed to want for the galaxy at large speaks for itself.

The Codex was never an attempt to keep up with changing times. It was meant to be and has proven to be an extremely effective means of keeping Space Marines from turning and, in the event of their treachery, of limiting the damage. For many reasons, Dorn failed to see this. Russ rejected it for his own reasons (at least partly to do with the unstable nature of the Canis Helix, I'd guess). The Blood Angels follow it as closely as they can, considering their own special problems. It seems no one bothered to tell the Dark Angels about it. Everyone else got on board. The fact that the Imperial Fists became the staunchest supporters of its tenants after the Ultramarines themselves tells you something about how important the Codex really is. (The fact that the Black Templars totally rejected it, meanwhile, tells you something about Dorn IMO.)


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@Lupe: We might see that sort of thing once there is more Deathwatch material out there. You would do well to keep an eye on FFG's upcoming roleplaying game in this regard.


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IGLannister wrote:As for the Lion and old Leman, were not talking about them are we?

Well, you're criticizing Guilliman alone for things that both of them could be criticized about.

I really did see Guilliman as quite the perfectionist.

Perhaps even more so than Fulgrim, whose approach to perfection consisted of "learn everything you can in every field". Guilliman observed and pondered, then found methods that worked and refined them through successive and successful use. Had he lived, I'm quite confident the Codex would undergo massive revisions every now and then, as some things were no longer relevant, and some things just became relevant.

Certainly the proper use of a Land Raider Crusader would have prompted him to write an update, for instance...

@Carlovonsexron

Taking all the rocks and building a new continent would work for a couple of years but once Fenris reaches the stage of it's cycle when it is closest to the sun the continent would either be ripped apart by the pressure put on the planet or or just melted by the heat. Either way it ends up back in the sea.

Another huge factor is that the Fenrisians don't know about the imperium. By having contact with them you would effectively destroy their entire culture. They need to stay isolated to continue.

The only Death world humans whos opinions we know are Catachans and they are also happy to live on Catachan.

Manchu wrote:This line in the conversation might benefit from a hypothetical: At the end of First Armageddon, Logan Grimnar nearly went to war with the Administratum over its (Inquistion-backed) decision to sterilize and work to death any citizen of that planet who knew of the daemonic incursion there. Grimnar was furious that the Armgeddans' bravery was repayed with slavery and death but he ultimately backed down so as to avoid engulfing the already devastated planet in civil war.

If Lord Macragge had been there instead of Grimnar, what would he have done?

He would have sat everyone down at a table and served pure mineral water. He would have encouraged both parties to share their ideas and try to debate them in the hope that new and compelling points might be raised which could influence either party to augment or change their views. He would then try to probe for a consensus and, if one was found, hope that everyone gets along swimmingly.

Manchu wrote: Would you criticize Leman Russ or Jagahti Kahn for not being at Terra when Horus finally made it there? Do I even need to bring up the Lion on this score?

Why do you claim that Jagathai Khan wasn't there when he was?

Russ got distracted....
Lion had the right idea but didn't move...

The point stands.

This.... this right here is what makes me ok with the Ultra Marines this guy-

Lexicanum wrote:As one might expect from an embodiment of the Ultramarine's nobility, Calgar is immune to fear and is resolutely courageous under fire; where lesser men would dive for cover when being fired upon, Marneus Calgar takes quick stock of the situation, decides the best course of action, and only if he so decides to leap into cover, then he will do so.

28 volumes of records dedicated to the achievements and deeds of Calgar, surpassed only by Roboute Guilliman, are stored within a vault at the Macragge's Chapter Fortress. Amongst these achievements include: leading the breaching assault on the Tyranid Hive Ship Behemoth Primus, single-handedly holding the gate against an Ork Horde for a night and a day at the Siege of Zalathrax, defeating an bat, thus leading to the rout of Eldar forces at the Battle for Orar's Sepulchre, and recapturing the star fort Indomitable from the daemonic hordes of M'kar the Reborn.4 Eldar Avatar in single-handed com

Manchu wrote:@JimSolo: I get the explanation. I just don't get how it applies to Ultramarines. The world of 40k is pretty far from the mainstream. I don't buy that Ultramarines stand in for Britney Spears and High School Musical. As I've said before, this is a matter of 12 year olds who love Ultramarines growing up to be 16 years olds who hate them. But 16 year olds usually get over themselves in a few years.

@IGLannister: Your post constitutes more evidence for KamikazeCanuck's observations two pages ago. And very likely my own above, as well.

I was just about to say that.

4M2A wrote:@Carlovonsexron

Taking all the rocks and building a new continent would work for a couple of years but once Fenris reaches the stage of it's cycle when it is closest to the sun the continent would either be ripped apart by the pressure put on the planet or or just melted by the heat. Either way it ends up back in the sea.

It was just an example based on that fact that there is at least some stable landmass on Fenris, up by the poles, and the rational as to why here on Earth areas are more or less prone to flooding and shoreline rearrangement (because they are at or even below sea level - which really messes things up when ice ages start and end, like what happens on Fenris all the time, or so I've come to believe.) It was really just example of simple ways there might be an answer to the planets ailments - perhaps they might work, perhaps they wouldn't.

In any event the argument served me an ill purpose - it distracts from the topic at hand, and doesn't really help the point I wanted to make, which was that the Space Wolves cant exactly be viewed as the Imperiums great Humanitarians any more then the Ultramarines or Salamanders - who both actively do help out their human populations that they are the stewards of.

I get that the rational behind that is a strong and involved warrior ethos, and that the Space Wolves being such a tradition bound chapter are loath to change it; its just that I don't entirely buy into the view point that every one truly shares that ethos all the time, under any and all circumstances, and that it leads to alot of suffering that doesn't really need to be happening on Fenris at all - not when other chapters have track records just as (and for some debatably more glorious and manage their own recruiting worlds with out any eye towards having as sever a 'hands off policy' as the wolves seem to.

But I'm willing to admit that these are my thoughts - I havent read any of the Space Wolves books - and the one book that i've read that mentions them -Thousand Sons- portrays them as little better then Chaos itself, in many respects.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. But even if Fenris could be made safer The SWs would never allow it. They believe its what makes them strong.
That what you saying too?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

@Carl: I think it's your moralizing that made it unclear to KC. The SW and the people of Fenris are more alike culturally than the SW and the Ultramarines. To SW and "mortal" Fenrisians, a life of constant struggle against nature and battle with fellow warriors is totally proper. These guys aren't looking for any paradise other than Valhalla. Ultramarines, on the other hand, are rooted in the traditions of Macragge. For them, the fight is a means rather than an end. The end is the glorious reign of perfected Humanity--and war, while neither loathsome nor dignified inherently, must be pursued efficiently and in an orderly manner so as to prevent its noble prosecutors from ever enjoying it as if it were actually worthwhile of itself. For SW and UM alike, war is a way of life. But the SW embrace it with a wild abandon whereas the UM practice it like a fine art. You might even say that whereas war was the nature of Russ it was the talent of Guilliman.

I agree with you totally on that point - but it begs the question of which truly has the best interest of humanity at heart, which is where my own points came up - because while I'll never deny the Wolves their place as some of, and in many ways the total equals of the Ultras...

... that is largely limited to realm of warfare. The wolves may show respect to mortal humans, but its only, and exclusively on the wolves own terms. Terms which I'm not exactly convinced are really all that good, if ever taken out of the theater and context of war.

I think that this coincidences with your point about Guilliman being the anti-Horus, and the musings your post inspired about the Dune like vision of humanity - perhaps as lead by Guilliman, the only primarch to be able to leave a legacy of planets truly exposed to the glorious dawn that was the great crusade, crafted into beautiful, prosperous, peaceful worlds that never the less were stood protected by the stalwart might of both mortal and astarte armies without peer.

In this light, the wolves become a finely honed weapon - the sword of the Emperor - but a sword, by its nature, is not a tool of peace or humanitarianism. It can only know a peer when meeting another weapon, and that is in the field of combat.

And that sort of what I've been trying to point to - if the space wolves are ever 'champions' of the regular, mortal human, its not because the wolves have any greater care about the lives of mortals then any other marine chapter - they very likely value it either no more, or perhaps even less then other chapters. Which lay at the heart of their culture, and why they will never attempt to change it (The world and culture of Fenris) to make it easier.

But for acts of bravery and courage the wolves will bend over backwards - because it is the recognition of meeting another group that has the same function as the wolves - that of a honed weapon. But that recognition isnt something that should be confused with actually being compassion, care, or mercy.

The wolves are a weapon - no more, no less - this has both wonderful connotations, as well as bad ones.

The Ultramarines have a different purpose; perhaps the analogy of the Ultramarine is one of a hand that wields a weapon the same as a pen or a plow, or perhaps they are an ax, that can both cut enemies as well as harvest raw wood for use. Or perhaps they are supposed to be the mind that actually oversees it all, and Gulliman was all along supposed to be the lynch pin that would see the dawn of Mankinds Golden age as what is now the condition of the realm of Ultramar was supposed to be the condition of all humanity.

That might be too grand a vision for the Ultras; perhaps it isnt. But my point about the Space Wolves is about over. They are tools of war, heroes because they do what they were intended to do, and not because they really have compassion for the regular mortal human running around on any world you might happen to pass by, where as the Ultramarines actively take on the mantle of the good steward, at least to the worlds they are directly charged with providing those duties for.

This may have been said before as I only skimmed the previous 8 pages. If I am repeating something that has already been said then I apologize. First of all I think it is rather silly to tar the Ultramarines as non-interesting because screaming 12 year olds trend towards Ultramarines. I would say that this is because it is inevitably the first army you are exposed to and is, generally, the way that new players assume space marines are "supposed to be painted". I, myself, have seen very few nice looking Ultramarine armies but the good ones that I have seen have been exceptional.

I also submit to you that the Ultramarines are awesome simply because they really are the ultimate "good guys" of the universe. Consider this, nearly every other faction of the Imperium takes the easy way out when confronted with a problem. They burn people at the stake, rule with an iron fist and generally act like medieval despots. I will agree that the Space Wolves are generally "good guys" but they don't control a miniature empire where people live in peace, harmony, and prosperity. The Ultramarines, through Ultramar, represent everything that is good in humanity. That they do this in a "grimdark" future where people are all too willing to kill, maim, or oppress their fellows speaks volumes about their character. It takes far more courage, and dare I say character, to do the right thing in a difficult situation than to do the easy thing in the same situation. With all of the power that the Ultramarines wield they don't use it to enrich themselves; they use it to improve the lives of people they fight to protect. That sort of selfless heroism in a universe that doesn't have any moral standards is not something to malign as "goody two shoes" it is something to admire (as much as we can admire fictional characters in a fictional universe). If the rest of the Imperium functioned half as well as Ultramar then it might not be coming apart at the seams.

The only way I could look at the Ultramarines as anything other than the bland superman-clone chapter groomed by GW for the DBZ-watching 14 year old demographic, is if the stuff about the Ultramarines secretly being Alpha Legion turns out true. I mean, they'll never come out and say it, but all the stuff about Alpharius' alleged death coming from a dodgy Ultramarines report, and Omegon's naming similarities to the Ultramarine's Omega chapter symbol... I'd like more stuff like that please!

Yeah, I just don't like them as is because they're a good example of 'Telling, not Showing'. We're told they're tactical geniuses who contribute to the stability of the Imperium... but we're shown them getting easily fooled and out-maneuvered during the HH; freeing the Nightbringer thus allowing it to inflict untold destruction upon the Imperium; sending a single 'honour company' to major and important wars like the 13th Black Crusade; getting the crap kicked out of them during the Armageddon wars; and just generally never being shown them contributing in any meaningful way.

The only major battle we're shown them fighting and winning is the battle for Macragge, which was to save their own bacon anyway! Good going, Ultramarines!

IGLannister wrote:Key word: feints. If myself and a bunch of my brothers died protecting Holy Terra from Horus, and Mr Big Shot comes along and says, "Hey, fellas, let's split everyone up so no one becomes too powerful. Yeah, I know you had this big war, and I was getting the run-around, my bad, but serious, we gotta split you all up.", yeah, ID be mad.

That's my issue with the smurfs. And the way im putting it, I def think ID have the support of a few primarchs behind me. Who is this fool that thinks all the sudden he gets to call the shots? While they were guarding the Capitol of the Imperium from wave after wave of chaos marines, demons, and god only knows what else, Smurfette and his Goons are playing tag in deep space? Come on.


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As for the Lion and old Leman, were not talking about them are we?

I'm sorry but that's dumb logic. You're making an argument as if they had a choice. They were racing back to Terra as fast as they could seeing that keeping them away was part of Horus' plan. That's like blaming a firefighter in another state for not putting out the fire in your house.

tallshortguy wrote:

IGLannister wrote:Key word: feints. If myself and a bunch of my brothers died protecting Holy Terra from Horus, and Mr Big Shot comes along and says, "Hey, fellas, let's split everyone up so no one becomes too powerful. Yeah, I know you had this big war, and I was getting the run-around, my bad, but serious, we gotta split you all up.", yeah, ID be mad.

That's my issue with the smurfs. And the way im putting it, I def think ID have the support of a few primarchs behind me. Who is this fool that thinks all the sudden he gets to call the shots? While they were guarding the Capitol of the Imperium from wave after wave of chaos marines, demons, and god only knows what else, Smurfette and his Goons are playing tag in deep space? Come on.


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As for the Lion and old Leman, were not talking about them are we?

I'm sorry but that's dumb logic. You're making an argument as if they had a choice. They were racing back to Terra as fast as they could seeing that keeping them away was part of Horus' plan. That's like blaming a firefighter in another state for not putting out the fire in your house.

Your scenario is only half of what he described. In order to fully match it, the fireman in question has to come in after everybody else has finished putting out the fire and tell you that you have to split your family, or he'll beat you up.

@nobody: To really complete the metaphor, you'd have to mention that the family this fireman wanted to split up had a propensity to start fires and that the ones who died in that particular fire had actually started it. No matter how you look at it, Codex Astartes was a good idea.

Sorry, I only play doomed Chapters. The Ultramarines got off easy in the Heresy.

UMs are "good guys" by GrimDark standards, sure, but let's not go overboard. While Ultramar is a paradise materially-speaking, it's also a totalitarian military dictatorship. Anyone not drinking the proverbial blue koolaid would be utterly miserable and probably end up institutionalized (whether in a prison or asylum) or just plain euthanized. Fenris i


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Fenris is a cruel and savage world but it offers a kind of freedom. Carl is right to say that the SW don't carer about humanity at large. They only care about those who have shown courage and strength. They care, that is, about particular people. The UM don't--the UM care about Humanity not individual human "mortals." This is why I brought up First Armageddon.

Manchu is right and has said something I have been trying to explain. UMs are good for the imperium but you still have no rights at all there. The only reason it's better place to live than the rest of the imperium is because it's not being attacked. The UMs are good soldiers but they don't really care anout the humans. You still end up dead if you disagree with anything the UM so they aren't nice.

The Ultramarines look so much at the bigger picture that they loose all the humanity that they still have. The SW and Salamanders still care about the average human.

The UMs care about Humanity but the SWs care about humans (yes there is a subtle difference). I don't think the SW only care about the brave humans, more that killing their own soldiers seemed like betraying your own people and the SW are a very loyal chapter.

@Manchu - To a point, I'll agree; but the Ultramarines represent the concept of an 'Enlightened Despot' - to quote the wiki article on the subject:

In effect, the monarchs ruled with the intent of improving the lives of their subjects in order to strengthen or reinforce their authority. In the spirit of enlightened absolutism, Emperor Joseph II said, "Everything for the people, nothing by the people."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_absolutism

The Ultramarines rule is something of "∞" - Rule wisely and benevolently to safe guard humanity; safe guard humanity to rule wisely and benevolently.

Benevolence, in this case, being the standard state of human society on their worlds - the Ultramarines may be dictators, yes. But they arnt depicted as tyrants, and if their fluff is to be believed, the populations of their worlds genuinely love 'em.

@4M2A: I disagree