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Manchu wrote:

metallifan wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
History never repeats.

We're kidding here, right?

Tell me we're kidding. Please.

It's not history that gets repeated. It's the damned cliches.

No, I'm pretty sure its history.

I am not a huge fan of the Ultrasumrfs, but not because they lack character, its because they seem to be the Mary Sues of Space Marines. I mean, any other chapter that got their 1st company wiped out to a man by the 'nids would be the laughingstock of every chapter in the Imperium. But no, all other marines (except the spess pupz) still love them. All of this is still IMHO of course, and all they would need to fix that is some better fluff and to let the other chapters take the spotlight for awhile.

They're easy to hate because they're too perfrect IMO.

Samus_aran115 wrote:wow. Manchu has 5000 posts now...I loled.

???

This thread was my 800th post but that was over a year ago now.

TBH, I still don't think that anyone has posted a very convincing answer of why they don't like Ultramarines.

My conclusion is that a sizable portion of the set called "the kind of people that play 40k" have a deep-seated need to hate the "mainstream" wherever it occurs, even inside of 40k itself. Generally speaking, UM represent that hated mainstream. More specifically, you can find them hating whatever faction has the newest dex.

I still think my out of fluff reason presented around page 2 is quite valid and at the time I'm pretty sure you agreed. Within fluff I might agree with the above, but it since it's a generalization I tend to intrinsically distrust it.

I can see that some of the oldest 40k fans might see it from that perspective (hence, why I said I sympathized with your point BUT I have not myself been a fan of 40k since CF were first founding) but I'm not convinced that this explains the general dislike.

I think Manchu has certainly found a believable reason for most of the dislike - the whole 'anti-establishment/mainstream' angle.

Also, the latest SM Codex was, in my opinion, more than a little over the top with the "Everyone want to be an Ultramarine. Oh, and on top of that, a Tactical Squad Marine too" shtick.

That was misguided and, quite honestly, more than a little silly.

So, until C: SM 6th edition shows up...

The 5. edition Ultras are Marry Sues, even more than your average marine chapter. That is currently their one big fault.
They are the best at everything ( sniping, tank driving, leading, have the greatest psyker... ), Ultramar is a paradise, everyone wants to be like them.
Leaving some glory to the other codex adherent chapters would have improved the book by quite a bit.

Of course i am aware that the Ultramarines are depicted as the paragon of a codex adhering chapter. But one needs to keep in mind
that many of their second founding chapters, who are just as old and nearly as famous, would have really deserved some love.
One only needs to think of the poor Silverskulls, the Black/White Consuls and many others.

So yes, while some people dislike the Ultramarines because it is "stilish" many others simply do not like that they basically monopolize
the 5. edition spacemarine codex.

@Alpharius: I don't quite get where you're coming from. Wasn't the second from last SM dex just as Ultra-heavy?

I always thought that Mephiston was touted as a better psyker than Tigurius . . . also, there's a pretty good argument that all Ultramarine named characters are better for fluffy rather than competitive lists.

IMO, Chapters from the Third Founding on don't deserve any more Codex space than they have. Except Blood Ravens, who deserve less. I'd like to see more on the First Founding loyalists, sure, but the SM Codex is already pretty thick. It's nice to have named characters for Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Raven Guard, White Scars, and Salamanders. If you think about it, all that's missing is an Iron Hands guy and you can sub a Master of the Forge in for him nicely.

I don't really dislike Ultramarines.

I absolutely despise with every fibre of my being that an utter milksop fanwanker like Ward got to write the SM codex.

You've seen the pictures of his interview on the codex right? Through the whole damn thing he wouldn't shut up about how the Ultramarines are the best, he loved playing them, and everyone should.

You don't let the man who gushes about how amazing such and such is write an official rulebook on said such and such.

You wouldn't let a conspiracy theorist write a history textbook, you wouldn't let a Flat-Earther write a geology paper, and you shouldn't let Ward write a codex.

Manchu wrote:@Alpharius: I don't quite get where you're coming from. Wasn't the second from last SM dex just as Ultra-heavy?

Really?

While most of the Space Marine codices have been Ultramarine Recruitment Books, NOTHING comes close to the overall tone of the 5th edition version!

Wait till 6th edition, where they reveal that Custodes are the aspirants who were to become Ultramarines, but failed to join their blessed blue ranks.

Oh, and the Emperor will be retconned to have been the first Ultramarine too, and Chaos is evil because they are jealous of the musical stylings of Marneus Calgar.

Haddi wrote:Wait till 6th edition, where they reveal that Custodes are the aspirants who were to become Ultramarines, but failed to join their blessed blue ranks.

Oh, and the Emperor will be retconned to have been the first Ultramarine too, and Chaos is evil because they are jealous of the musical stylings of Marneus Calgar.

Heh heh!

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if that's where GW takes us next time around!

OK, it would, but still!

See immediately above for prime example of what I'm up against in this thread.

EDIT: And immediately below. :(

Alpharius wrote:

Haddi wrote:Wait till 6th edition, where they reveal that Custodes are the aspirants who were to become Ultramarines, but failed to join their blessed blue ranks.

Oh, and the Emperor will be retconned to have been the first Ultramarine too, and Chaos is evil because they are jealous of the musical stylings of Marneus Calgar.

Heh heh!

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if that's where GW takes us next time around!

OK, it would, but still!

6th Edition Space Marine Special Rule:

Is an Ultramarine

No matter what Chapter your marines say they belong to, they are in fact Ultramarines spreading the blue blessing by disguising their beautious armor with the drab colors of other chapters.

All Marines have WS 10 BS 10 S 10 T 10 W 10 I 10 A 10 LD 10 1+++ Save and Automatically Hit and Wound, ignore Armor and Invulnerable saves, and cost 1 point each. This represents all units in the game being awed by the sheer beauty and power of the proud Sons of Rouboute Guilleman.

Manchu wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:wow. Manchu has 5000 posts now...I loled.

???

This thread was my 800th post but that was over a year ago now.

TBH, I still don't think that anyone has posted a very convincing answer of why they don't like Ultramarines.

My conclusion is that a sizable portion of the set called "the kind of people that play 40k" have a deep-seated need to hate the "mainstream" wherever it occurs, even inside of 40k itself. Generally speaking, UM represent that hated mainstream. More specifically, you can find them hating whatever faction has the newest dex.

Alpharius wrote:I think Manchu has certainly found a believable reason for most of the dislike - the whole 'anti-establishment/mainstream' angle.

The Phenomenom is called "Haters gonna hate!"

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Phenomenom is called "Haters gonna hate!"

Manchu wrote:See immediately above for prime example of what I'm up against in this thread.

EDIT: And immediately below. :(

Nice examples.

Your best bet would be to stop M.W. before he writes another SM dex....
Ultras would have it easier without his "bestest marines" nonsense.