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I don't think SW are "good" as they still follow the imperiums belief that you must kill everything non human, but out of all the SM they care most about the average human.

From our point of veiw living on Fenris would be horrible, but the SW love it. They are proud to have been brought up there and don't want to change it. They may recruit from it but they don't use it as a training ground, it's just a deathworld. Like all other chapters they take the best from their planet. The human fenrisians don't do it to get chosen and to them SW are just a myth.

Towards humans SW are the most caring chapter. You can't really compare how SM treat xenos as they almost always kill them on sight.

Unless they're blood ravens, in which case they might have sex with them.

Oh wait that's Goto fluff, nevermind, sorry.

Unless they're blood ravens, in which case they might have sex with them.

Oh wait that's Goto fluff, nevermind, sorry.

Sorry to go of topic here but what?

4M2A wrote:

Unless they're blood ravens, in which case they might have sex with them.

Oh wait that's Goto fluff, nevermind, sorry.

Sorry to go of topic here but what?

I don't know either, but the mental image I get means I'll never look at a multi-laser the same way again.

There were hints at a... relationship... in one of his books, between a far seer and some Marine or other.

4M2A wrote:

Unless they're blood ravens, in which case they might have sex with them.

Oh wait that's Goto fluff, nevermind, sorry.

Sorry to go of topic here but what?

eldar farseer macha.

My opinion of Goto's books just found a new low.

I think the next Goto book will feature the son of Macha growing up to be a fully-fledged Marseer, and the happy family life of the Angeloses. Something like the Osbournes, just in 40k

Personally I see the only canon for Blood Ravens are the DoW games and official Relic Entertainment fluff, seeing as they're Relic's personal chapter. So let's move on!

Melissia wrote:Kinda like... just about every other chapter?

Except the Ultramarines.


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4M2A wrote:My opinion of Goto's books just found a new low.

Indeed. SMs are sterile.

IIRC, the Ultramarines still have blood arenas where they make children kill eachother in order to determine which one is most worthy of becoming Marines.

Melissia wrote:IIRC, the Ultramarines still have blood arenas where they make children kill eachother in order to determine which one is most worthy of becoming Marines.

Probably, but where do you recall this from?

It was part of the Blood Ravens fluff... mind you, they aren't a perfectly codex chapter, but then they're about the only chapter that I've ended up following closely due to the games.

The Dawn of War Books? Are those by Mr. Goto?

No, it was mentioned in-game in one of the various fluff blurbs, it's the fluff behind the arena section of the Typhon maps.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Dawn of War Books? Are those by Mr. Goto?

This is the biggest picture I could find...

Ultramarines are just too.... nice... They dispel the illusion of grimdark with their insistence on moral options... And hugging the Tau...

This line in the conversation might benefit from a hypothetical: At the end of First Armageddon, Logan Grimnar nearly went to war with the Administratum over its (Inquistion-backed) decision to sterilize and work to death any citizen of that planet who knew of the daemonic incursion there. Grimnar was furious that the Armgeddans' bravery was repayed with slavery and death but he ultimately backed down so as to avoid engulfing the already devastated planet in civil war.

If Lord Macragge had been there instead of Grimnar, what would he have done?

Manchu wrote:This line in the conversation might benefit from a hypothetical: At the end of First Armageddon, Logan Grimnar nearly went to war with the Administratum over its (Inquistion-backed) decision to sterilize and work to death any citizen of that planet who knew of the daemonic incursion there. Grimnar was furious that the Armgeddans' bravery was repayed with slavery and death but he ultimately backed down so as to avoid engulfing the already devastated planet in civil war.

If Lord Macragge had been there instead of Grimnar, what would he have done?

Any record where the Ultramarines opposed the Inquisition?

Lord Macragge would maybe use his inbreed abilities and drown the Inquisition and the administratum in paperwork.
Several millenia later, war N°3 had a competent Imperial governor instead of this xenoslover.

Lord Macrage would sit down for the next 10 years and write a book about the fair treatment of victims of daemonic incursions, then try and force it onto the inquisition.

I really don't know that Calgar would have opposed the destruction of the "tainted" population. (If he would have, it certainly wouldn't have been through nearly going to war with the rest of the Imperium. And anything less than that would have resulted in their deaths anyway.) My point is that surely this is a situation in which the Ultramarines would not be "too boring," etc. Some will no doubt respond that this is the sort of hard decision that GW never has the Ultramarines face BUT that's ridiculous: Guilliam faced a far tougher situation at the close of the Heresy when it looked like Dorn was going to be the next Horus. Thankfully, it didn't come to war but it is clear that the Ultramarines would have pushed it that far.

LunaHound wrote:Ppl play what they can relate to.

Ppl that are grim goth and emo , will subconsciously pick armies which reflects that.

Im going to be burnt on a steak now arnt i >.>
Ppl dont like valiant heroes anymore , only emo ones like Batman , Prototype , etc etc

Why would you say people don't like a valiant hero? I love to see a hero that is courageous and honorable and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I love the fact that there is a chapter that presents some semblance of normalcy in an Imperium that is all gloom and doom.

Carlovonsexron wrote:The Space wolves are psychopaths in their own right... above all, keep their home world as a horrific meat grinder for anyone not destined to become a space marine.

Two thoughts - you might as well blame Cadia or Catachan for being a horrible place as well as blame Fenris. The nature of the planet is unstable and unpleasant.

Second - you're projecting your own ideals for what makes a good place/society to live onto Fenris. For the occupants of that world living a life of honor, violence, raiding, and constant war is thought of as a good life. Why would the Space Wolves want to take that away from them?

Manchu wrote:This line in the conversation might benefit from a hypothetical: At the end of First Armageddon, Logan Grimnar nearly went to war with the Administratum over its (Inquistion-backed) decision to sterilize and work to death any citizen of that planet who knew of the daemonic incursion there. Grimnar was furious that the Armgeddans' bravery was repayed with slavery and death but he ultimately backed down so as to avoid engulfing the already devastated planet in civil war.

If Lord Macragge had been there instead of Grimnar, what would he have done?

I'm not sure. I think he would have done pretty much the same thing. Be outraged, try to stop it but eventually back down.

Thor665 wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:The Space wolves are psychopaths in their own right... above all, keep their home world as a horrific meat grinder for anyone not destined to become a space marine.

Two thoughts - you might as well blame Cadia or Catachan for being a horrible place as well as blame Fenris. The nature of the planet is unstable and unpleasant.

Second - you're projecting your own ideals for what makes a good place/society to live onto Fenris. For the occupants of that world living a life of honor, violence, raiding, and constant war is thought of as a good life. Why would the Space Wolves want to take that away from them?

1)The Imperium is a place where in the span of four months you can flatten an entire continent to make way for a victory parade (Ullanor Crusade) if you really wanted to - making ANY planet in the Imperium a nice place to live is doable, but it seems no one really has the interest of doing just that at heart - save the Ultramarines. Admittedly, we dont know, and there certainly isn't any evidence of them doing such for the sake of a planet's population - but you certainly cant see anyone other then the Ultramarines doing it, except for maybe the Salamanders.

2)Because the 'good' of that life is only 'good' for the winners - the losers of those fights have no other options open to them save death, slavery, starvation and dishonor. How well of a place a place just happens to be isnt measured by the winners, by those who do best and are happy - its measured by just how happy the down trodden are.

There is a TV show called 'Anthony Bourdains No Reservations' a good show (at least at one point - I havent heard the best about over the last few years) about a glone trotting ex-Chef from New York. In one, he goes to a remote podunk little village on the Amazon, lives that life a bit - a life that many civilized westerners look on as being a refreshing simplicity of life and life style, a return to primitive roots that might make us more happy.

Of course, the reality of the villagers was just the opposite - they'd take any chance to get out of there, to be free of basically living like half savages in what amounts to a -albeit pretty- version of hell. Kind words offered by the host about the beauty of life in the village were returned with a 'if you want it, you can have it- I dont.' to paraphrase.

I really dont think the people on Fenris are all that happy about their lot in life, save the victorious warlords and their tribes, and those who get to be Space marines,

Bloodfrenzy187 Wrote:
Why would you say people don't like a valiant hero? I love to see a hero that is courageous and honorable and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I love the fact that there is a chapter that presents some semblance of normalcy in an Imperium that is all gloom and doom.

There are very few people in the world who are purely heroic. I hate to be pessimistic but negative emotions are much stronger and more common than positive ones, thats just human nature. It's a lot easier to relate to people if we can understand their position.

It also makes for an interesting story. The problem with UM isn't always that they are too good but that they also have it too easy. If Gw wants a SM chapter to win a battle you can be sure the Ultramarines were there. For a story to be worth reading there must be a strugle either the characters fighting their emotions or a good hero against impossible odds. Neither of these are in most ultramarine fluff. For example my custom chapter are very similar to UM in the way they think but to keep it interesting I had almost the entire chapter wipe out so they are hardly able to keep going.

Carlovonsexron Wrote
The Imperium is a place where in the span of four months you can flatten an entire continent to make way for a victory parade (Ullanor Crusade) if you really wanted to - making ANY planet in the Imperium a nice place to live is doable, but it seems no one really has the interest of doing just that at heart - save the Ultramarines. Admittedly, we dont know, and there certainly isn't any evidence of them doing such for the sake of a planet's population - but you certainly cant see anyone other then the Ultramarines doing it, except for maybe the Salamanders.

Thats incorrect you can't make Fenris a nice place. The reason it's like it is is the relation it has to it's sun. Without moving a planet there is no way to change this. Plus the ultramarines didn't make it a nice place, it's always been like that. Sure there has been ups and downs but it's one of the nicest places in the imperium and it was like that before Guilliman arrived.

As Thor said the SW have a completely different view of Fenris to you, they are proud to have lived there and they love it.

4M2A wrote:
Thats incorrect you can't make Fenris a nice place. The reason it's like it is is the relation it has to it's sun. Without moving a planet there is no way to change this. Plus the ultramarines didn't make it a nice place, it's always been like that. Sure there has been ups and downs but it's one of the nicest places in the imperium and it was like that before Guilliman arrived.

As Thor said the SW have a completely different view of Fenris to you, they are proud to have lived there and they love it.

For starters, I'll say thats just much of Deus ex Machina as the fluff say 'Ultramarines are the ultimate perfection of the Spacemarine, and no others will ever come close to thier shiny Blue-Gold perfection'

I'll secondly say that, in my opinion at least, of course you make Fenris a nice place - or at least a nicer place. Clean up those asteroids that keep striking the planet for starters, that should help, and since there is in fact one solid piece of land that isnt submerged by oceans, the logical implication is that most of the 'land' on Fenris lays below the sea level present in the summer months - so pile up stone, and make it higher. And given that its the home planet of a Space marine chapter, I'm willing to bet that they may just have enough leeway to import food to feed any starving fenrisian mouths during the long winters. Now, you'll probably say 'that isnt it' or 'its not that simple' - but in areas where we worry about sinking land masses here on Earth, thats been exactly the answer - where we have to worry about starvation, in regions where you cant grow food, thats the only answer. - and these serve as a few examples of potential solutions to Fenris' problems.

And my concern isnt what the Space Wolves think of Fenris- its what every one who isnt a spacemarine who lives on Fenris thinks of Fenris - and I remain unconvinced that all those folks caught on the pointy end of their enemies swords, the ones who villages burned, family killed and made slaves and the destruction of everything they no and love around them takes place while rather uncaring wolf-lords look from beyond for reasons wholly unconcerned with how much suffering they might be going through really enjoys Fenris all that much.

The Imperium is a dark and cruel place because so often, it never seeks to answer problems with any solution other then blood. That's why it's 'Grimdark', and that reasoning isnt lost on me - if the Space wolves actually cared for the population on fenris beyond just wanting it to be a meat grinder to churn out spacewolf recruits (which is totally unnecessary, given the success of the Ultramarines recruiting from civilized worlds) then it wouldnt be grimdark, and it wouldnt be 40k as we know it.

But understand that its that reason, and no other why Fenris is 'unchangeable' and the Spacewolves, as a matter of fitting into all that, arnt nearly the stoic praetorians of good that the Ultramarines serve as.

Carlovonsexron wrote:I really dont think the people on Fenris are all that happy about their lot in life, save the victorious warlords and their tribes, and those who get to be Space marines,

That's like saying "the only people that are happy are the happy people." Ridiculous. I suggest you read some William King before trying to make any more points about the Space Wolves or Fenris.

Manchu, I think you are primarily right.

I also think that there is another point to why people dislike the Ultramarines.

Gamers, as a general guideline, tend to consider themselves separated from others. Many were picked on in school, and don't feel that they fit in. Much like other people who feel this way, many of them tend to respond by viewing popular or mainstream things as being bad or wrong. They will come up with reasons to justify their refusal to 'line up with all of the sheeple'. And, no, I don't exclude myself from this. I don't like the majority of popular movies, music, television, or books. Often, I find that upon examination, I simply dislike these things because they are popular.

I think that this applies to the Ultramarines.

As far as their fluff goes, I like them. The only reason I don't play them is that I like the Salamanders color scheme better.

But, thanks for bringing this up Manchu. Good conversation topic.

I just don't like Rowboat. He's a jerkwad and a douchebag. The ultramarines can piss off too.

IG for life.