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I don't particularly enjoy the background of Ultramarines, or their goody-two-shoes style. Their color scheme is just a bit too blue for me, and I really can't stand their self-important primarch.

BUT.

That doesn't meant that I'll ever give people crap for playing them. I see them as another perfectly viable and interesting army to play against, and I particularly enjoy slaughtering them by the dozens at any opportunity that comes my way. While I find them uninspiring and just a bit too righteous and pure, I never pass up the chance to kill the good guy of the story. So in all honesty, I appreciate the element they bring to the game, if only to provide a little point of light for all the grimdarkness to eat alive.

I hope that made sense. I'm terribly tired.

I'm probably beating a dead horse here (not the best thing to do with my second post I'm sure) but I take exception to the idea that Rogal Dorn was about to turn traitor.

Out of all the primarchs, Dorn probably had the most genuine "love" for the Emperor. Horus may have been the favored one, but I don't think anyone else really saw the Emp as 'dad'. I mean, he was the only one to actively seek out the crusade fleets bearing a gift. What I'm getting at is that Dorn held a deep respect and love for the Imperium as he saw in its golden age. After finding his father's body he went out and chased Chaos with his legion for a while, when he came back and was presented with this Codex thing he was pretty much flabergasted. As stated in Index Astartes II he couldn't comprehend that people would no longer trust the primarchs/space marines. He wanted to continue the Emperor's legacy, not admit that everything had changed.

When the Navy fired on one of his ships, and he was sort of forced to see how Horus had tainted every single marine's honor and trustworthiness he went into the pain glove to figure out what to do. That's when he was given the vision of the Iron Cage. He didn't blunder into it blindly, he knew that he needed to 1)prove his legion's loyalty and 2)do something drastic since his marines didn't want to found new chapters anyway. Taking on Perturabo killed three birds with one stone really. It let the Fists vent themselves, kicked the Iron Warriors back to the EoT, and thinned the ranks a bit so that the zealots could go off as Black Templars and the newer recruits could be Crimson Fists.

As a final point, it's said that Dorn outlived most of his brothers and was greatly dismayed as he saw the imperium he cared for falling deeper into the past. Taking the opportunity to more or less single handedly stop a Black Crusade is one of the better ways to go really.


As far as hating the Ultramarines...I don't really. Sure I hate the Codex because the Legions were deep fried win with a side of awesome-sauce, but 10000 years is a little long to hold a grudge. The Ultramarines did'n't totally sit out the Heresy either. They spent their time kicking Word Bearer ass, and we all know they were the real bad guys anyway.

The Ultramarines are awesome in the fluff; but that doesn't stop them being the "default" faction; the most common one... the one I feel I am most likely to encounter on the tabletop: That diminishes their value significantly.

Throwback to old WoW arguement: Undead Rogues, some could find them an awesome class to play with and love their racial ability; it was a good config... But it became so typical that it really was the "default" state: And that made those that used them 'Noobs'...

And I will admit, despite being a huge noob myself; I'd probably look upon a UM player as more than likely a noob? Bah maybe that's an unfair statement as said noob would probably own my arse... But still, show some imagination; there are plenty of codex chapters out there... The one advantage to picking Ultramarines is the host of heroes you get access to and you don't have to convert them!

But can I talk? I picked the next most "typical" faction from my viewpoint: The Blood Ravens, the choice of all DoW-influenced newcomers heh...

Everywhere I go, all I hear is about the Ultramarines being the most common. I have only ever seen ONE Ultra army in my 6 years of 40k. Dark Angels and Black Templars seem more popular. And with the 5th edition codex blatently saying that you can take the characters and just rename them and use them as your own, theres no point in the Ultramarines other than as a "how-to" for building a codex chapter. They allow zero creativity, as the whole 2nd company is named down to individual squads, and they have exacting numbers on whats what, company and squad markings are premade, and the fact that they have the most powerful characters is overshadowed by the fact that if I met more then one person who played them, odds are the armies would be almost identical. Might as well play with Legos, boys and girls

Chaosgyro wrote:Out of all the primarchs, Dorn probably had the most genuine "love" for the Emperor. Horus may have been the favored one, but I don't think anyone else really saw the Emp as 'dad'. I mean, he was the only one to actively seek out the crusade fleets bearing a gift. What I'm getting at is that Dorn held a deep respect and love for the Imperium as he saw in its golden age. After finding his father's body he went out and chased Chaos with his legion for a while, when he came back and was presented with this Codex thing he was pretty much flabergasted. As stated in Index Astartes II he couldn't comprehend that people would no longer trust the primarchs/space marines. He wanted to continue the Emperor's legacy, not admit that everything had changed.

Denial ain't just a river, Chaosgyro. You're right about everything but your conclusion: Dorn probably did think of the Emperor as a father more than the other Primarchs. It was for that reason that the Emperor's being Golden Throne'd did such a number on him, driving him to vengeance-motivated recklessness. It stands to reason (from the "facts" of established fluff) that, if left to his own devices, he would have senselessly and counter-productively smashed his Legion to pieces against whatever traitors he might come across. The next step would be attacking fellow loyalists in a haze of holier-than-thou ("You never loved the Emperor like I did, Roboute!") paranoia. In other words, Dorn's psyche was gradually ripening for a classic descent into chaos. Roboute's stern insistence on the Codex pulled him back eventually. But Dorn's mania survives in the Black Templars. I think the Templars are a good contrast to the Ultramarines. While the Ultramarines are still pursuing the Emperor's original goal of establishing an Imperium dominated by a healthy, progressive humanity--i.e., ending the Grimdark or, more accurately, Old Night once and for all--the BT are trapped in a perpetual crusade that supposedly protects humanity but certainly doesn't advance it. To put a finer point on this, evn if the Imperium itself were to fall Ultramar would still stand and the wider Imperium could be rebuilt with fidelity to His Divine Majesty's vision from the gleaming redoubt of Roboute Gulliman.

The point of this thread was to cheer on the Ultramarines, who represent what is worth saving about humanity. But I have no doubt that this point will continue to be undermined especially now that a UM movie has been announced.

Dorn went crazy for a while after the Heresy. During the Scouring it was the Imperial Fists AND the Ultramarines who did all the work, the Space Wolves were the only other Chapter slightly intact.

I agree; Ultramarines take a lot of flak because they're not as grimdark but Humanity has a lot to learn from them. This admittedly causes GW to give them a little too much attention.

Manchu wrote:

Since Third Edition, the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium has grown ever darker. The forces of the Imperium, which we could take for granted as the good guys back in Rogue Trader, subscribe to a code of morality that we in the real world would have a hard time identifying as socially acceptable much less praiseworthy. And yet 40k fans love it. I personally think it’s primarily because we have so many other sci-fi franchise ramming conventional contemporary morals (noble though they may be) down our throats. It can therefore be refreshing exercise in imagination to immerse oneself into a world where love, tolerance, and openness are sure-fire ways to doom the species. I also think that we recognize a lot of our own flawed proclivities in the grim darkness and can healthily deal with them as imaginary, not letting ourselves become bigots and hatemongers in real life. In any case, the gothic horror of ignorance and constant war fueled by religious hate is part of what makes 40k a lot of fun.

I'd argue with you. The Imperium was actually -more- evil in RT. If Space Marines came into contact with Daemons, they were killed or mind wiped. Entire worlds were murdered if they were suspected of heretics. Space Marines open fire on innocents. Space Marines are serial killers, psychos with armor. They were probably actually the bad guys until Chaos reared its ugly head. Slaves to Darkness is still to date one of the darkest most fethed up pieces of background I have read.

If anything, since 3rd edition WH40k has become less grimdark. Space Marines are the good guys. Chaos is just "Space Marines gone bad".


The problem is, the Ultramarines really aren't interesting anymore. They used to be. To me, had their old background still be around, they would be a much loved chapter even if they were the most common. Why? Calgar was a pompous jerk. He thought that Space Marines were so powerful they could deflect any bombardment or attack. That's why the Tyranids got through so easily.

Now, the background on the battle for Macragge is "Tyranids attack, the Ultramarines win! Yay! And Marneus killed the Hive Queen! He is soooo cool! (x2)"

Had the Ultramarines had a dark side to them, they would be interesting. Nope. It's all gone, replaced by POWAH FISTS!!

Saying that UMs are "boring good guys" is a gross oversimplification. They had a primarch who organized one of the finest systems in the Imperium, bringing it up to a level unmatched almost anywhere through organizational efficiency and order. That's a tough struggle for any humans, even if it isn't very glamorous!

Roboute then meekly handed over his legion power in an attempt to save the space marines and persuade his brethren to restructure as the Imperium was very mistrustful towards them. Eventually, the loyalists all saw the wisdom in this, even if they didn't like it.

The ultramarines continue to be a chapter of honor and bravery, dedicated to protecting the people of the Imperium and the legacy of the Emperor. They don't have any dark secret, they don't wear dresses, and they aren't vikings. Just tireless defenders of humanity in a bleak future where war is everywhere and betrayal commonplace.

That may not mean much to everybody, but that is preference.

Personally, I respect the UMs self sacrificing nobility. They show a character and honor lacking in some chapters. Like the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, and Salamanders, they are resolute in protecting humanity and, along with the Sallies and Space Wolves, seem to actually be concerned with human well being. They are not concerned with being "special snowflakes".

They are god guys, plain and simple. And some people don't like that.



What is odd is how people moan about UMs (and SMs in general) instead of doing something constructive with their chosen army/faction. I guess that's easier. I have Slaanesh and Nurgle Chaos and Ultras and Space Wolves. I like aspects of all of them, but I can identify with the UMs.

Also:

@jmurph: Agree 100%, obviously.

Also, I'm tired of people arguing that the UM have a cheesy background. I just read over the character backgrounds for the BA termies in the new Space Hulk. Sergeant Lorenzo is 650 years old. He's fought valiantly for six centuries but is still looking for the opportunity to "redeem" himself after some (not even personal) defeat when he was fifty? That's cheesier than Kraft macaroni. The truth is that every chapter has something that's slightly ridiculous going on with their background. All SM are geared to be the "awesomest ((+2))!!!!1!" so why pick on the UM particularly? My guess is too look cynical (or, these days, to fit in) and therefore to seem knowledgeable.

I used to dislike the Ultramarines due to the fact that they were the ultimate in generic Marines, the template for how to do it so to speak. Not to mention they were everywhere.

Then I read Apologist's plog over on Warseer, and while I'd never play an army of them, I'm pretty much neutral to them now. Plus I'm intrigued as to how the power struggle within the Chapter will go once Calgar snuffs it.

Dragonlover

@Dragonlover: please post a link to this Apologist's plog.

The Alpha Legion is the true savior of humanity.

Gulliman would lead humanity into ruin with his pride and stubbornness.

Sorry, but I'm going to be getting busy elsewhere in a second so I'd drop the comment that Salamanders are also fairly morally correct, since they tend to fight for the people of the Imperium. One of the most obvious signs of this is when a minor SM Chapter fired Whirlwinds into a camp full of Orks and Imperium Citizens alike, the Captain was boasting about it until he turned around to face the Salamander's Chapter Master, and was promptly chewed the hell out.

@Orkeosaurus: The only thing more proud and stubborn than an Ultramarine is a UM hater, I'd say. (Also, love your sig multilasers.)

@Eversor-Jon: Riveting tale, chap (cool story, bro). Hadn't heard that one before. Do you have a source? I'd really like to know what chapter that captain was from.

Sallies and S-Pups are both compassionate in their ways. But do the populations of Nocturne or Fenris fare as well as those of Ultramar much less Macragge in particular?

Manchu wrote:@Dragonlover: please post a link to this Apologist's plog.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146205 is the link. Quick warning: it's 44 pages of awesome, and you may be filled with the uncontrollable urge to make a truescale Marine army.

Manchu wrote:Riveting tale, chap (cool story, bro). Hadn't heard that one before. Do you have a source? I'd really like to know what chapter that captain was from

Marines Malevolent during the 3rd War for Armageddon. Source is either the Codex: Armageddon or an Index Astartes article from the time.

Dragonlover

BrotherStynier wrote:

Manchu wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:And you're a Space Wolf?

Despite what our friend Gwar may say GW has said that the Space Wolves are larger than your average chapter, far larger. At one point I believe it was said that Grimnar's Company had 3,000 Marines in it. Also Fenris is believed to be much larger than Earth with a population similar to modern Earth, albeit a much more nomadic population. So I would still have to believe that the Space Wolves are larger than the average Chapter and possibly the size of 4 other chapters but we won't know until October.

No where does its state anyof this, There are no no's for any of the great companies Lexi does not count as most of the stuff their is wishfull fan fiction.

Russ avoided the Civil war by creating one Successor Chapter, the Wolf Brothers, that suffered from mutation and was ultimately disbanded.

Atleast thats what he wanted the imperiam to think

Grim.Badger wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, there are "goodies" in 40k apart from Ultrasmurffs. Like BA and sanguinius for example. (Also, Rowboat is often portrayed as arrogant or even a downright jackass at times)

No where does it state guillaman was arrogant, another misconception without backing.

BrotherStynier wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Codex was a wise choice. That way, there could never be another Horus (on such a scale).

Unless you look at the Dark Angels and their Unforgiven brethren. The other Unforgiven still answer to the Dark Angels Inner Circle essentially meaning that they are the size of their Legion prior to the Heresy, if not slightly larger.

Here we go again. Pre heresy the DA sent 50000 (or was it 5000) marines from caliban under luthor to the lion (hh series descent of angels (the second book) so i doubt the DA have that many succesors running around today

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damn I dont know how to use the multi quote or the colours properly, I must have been away for to long

jmurph wrote:Saying that UMs are "boring good guys" is a gross oversimplification. They had a primarch who organized one of the finest systems in the Imperium, bringing it up to a level unmatched almost anywhere through organizational efficiency and order. That's a tough struggle for any humans, even if it isn't very glamorous!
....
They are god guys, plain and simple. And some people don't like that.

Manchu wrote:@jmurph: Agree 100%, obviously.

Also, I'm tired of people arguing that the UM have a cheesy background. ...The truth is that every chapter has something that's slightly ridiculous going on with their background. All SM are geared to be the "awesomest ((+2))!!!!1!" so why pick on the UM particularly? My guess is too look cynical (or, these days, to fit in) and therefore to seem knowledgeable.

I would note that perhaps the "problem" here is that the other chapters are a bit more interesting in their "awesomest ((+2))!!!!1!". For instance - say I wanted to bash on the Space Wolves. Well, their primarch is hot headed and overly boisterous. Corax? Too convinced of his own brilliance and cleverness. Dorn? Probably pompous and depending on which fluff you believe vis'a'vi the Iron Warrior battle - an idiot too. Sanguinus? Has the sin of anger bubbling beneath his perfect exterior. Every single primarch has some sort of flaw or bad habit, or lack of skill in some aspect of their job that makes them slightly flawed and thus also slightly more human.

Roboute has...

Well, yeah. That's a pretty good reason as tof why people pick on his particular brand of "awesomest ((+2))!!!!1!" I suspect. Even Superman, of whom I am quite a fan over Batman for the record, has some flaws that he has to overcome. Yes, he overcomes them and yes he makes the right decisions constantly, but at least he has the flaws and/or the poor thoughts to begin with. Roboute and his Ultramarines have stopped showing even the slightest blemish to their record lately.

Vladsimpaler wrote:The problem is, the Ultramarines really aren't interesting anymore. They used to be. To me, had their old background still be around, they would be a much loved chapter even if they were the most common. Why? Calgar was a pompous jerk. He thought that Space Marines were so powerful they could deflect any bombardment or attack. That's why the Tyranids got through so easily.

Now, the background on the battle for Macragge is "Tyranids attack, the Ultramarines win! Yay! And Marneus killed the Hive Queen! He is soooo cool! (x2)"

Had the Ultramarines had a dark side to them, they would be interesting. Nope. It's all gone, replaced by POWAH FISTS!!

I quote this text in order to reaffirm the veracity of the thoughts stated within it.

Gulliman's flaw is his rigidity (some call it pride--but that's only half of the picture), which almost led to a civil war among the loyalists right after the Heresy. Everyone who hates him has pointed that out and I agree with them . . . to a point. The Codex is the embodiment of Gulliman's reliance on pre-established hierarchies and strategies, which is a generally sound but ultimately insufficient approach to war. The Ultramarines therefore easily deal with ninety percent of the problems they face but then run into something totally unexpected--like a Tyranid hive fleet bearing down on them--and for a while they are totally paralyzed, not with fear but with an inability to deal with novel situations.

The really interesting thing about the Ultramarines is that when they are forced into "thinking outside of the box" it's not merely a pragmatic but moreover a moral, quasi-theological issue. If we do what's going to work and win in this situation, they might say, are we turning away from the Codex? Given that they believe (quite correctly, in my estimation) that the Codex has preserved the stability of the Imperium since the Heresy, every little compromise is fraught with the danger of re-igniting past betrayals. (This is kind of discussed in Graham McNeill's "Chains of Command," albeit in less dramatic terms.) Ultramarines are like D&D-style paladins: unlike the fighters (IF), barbarians (SW), and rogues (Alpha Legion), they do not allow themselves the convenience of fighting in merely the most effective way. They have a Code to uphold and honor, which constitutes for them the principles that make humanity worthy of survival and dominance over all other forms of life.

And that staunch defense leads to the arrogance that others have accused them of showing in the face of threats that they are clearly unprepared to meet. UM walk a fine line, like all paladin archetypes, between honoring a set of worthy principles and honoring themselves as the manifestation of those principles. In other words, hubris is inherent to the UM in a manner that the other Chapters don't experience. Sallies are humble (as a result of having been thoroughly humbled), DA and BA are caught up in past and current shames respectively, Wolves are not self-conscious enough, Fists are too single-minded, Black Templars are insane, etc, etc, etc. The best example of this is that no other chapter has its own mini-Imperium and I'd argue (again) that no other Chapter homeworld is as nice to live on as Maccragge. Seriously, if you had to live in the 40k universe as a civilian, where would you rather be?

Manchu wrote:Gulliman's flaw is his rigidity (some call it pride--but that's only half of the picture), which almost led to a civil war among the loyalists right after the Heresy. Everyone who hates him has pointed that out and I agree with them . . . to a point.

I had thought that your contention was that a second civil war was coming based upon Dorn's actions and that the Codex and Guilliman stopped this. Do you separate that as a potential Heresy that the Codex stopped but that the Codex almost caused a civil war? For the record I do think the Codex is silly primarily in how Guilliman chose to implement it and I don't think Dorn was due a fall (but there's a couple widely divergent stories about this time and they are quite contradictory, so it does seem to come down to which you accept). But I had thought your contention was that the COdex was needed and that it stopped a second Heresy (which I translate as a second civil war) but I was curious where you drew the distinction.

The overt fluff purports the Codex as full of internets, dark elf boobies, and win.

As a civilian I wouldn't want to live anywhere in the 40k universe. I'd probably pick the Black Library if pressed - simply because the lure of truth would be too strong to resist methinks.

Thor, I'd bet reading the books in the BL makes you Lovecraft-style insane.

But good question, very good indeed. I think that the loyalists Primarchs were not themselves above falling to Chaos after the Heresy and that Dorn was the closest to that line out of the bunch. If he had continued, as I've detailed elsewhere in this thread, he would have been the next Horus and maybe even a worse one because he would claim to be for rather than against the Emperor (i.e., Inquisition's worst nightmare). Further, I think that Gulliman's imposition of the Codex prevented Dorn's fall (but that the seeds of it are still present in the BT) at the cost of almost provoking a non-heretical, purely political civil war. So, Heresy 2.0 on the one hand and near civil war on the other. Almost having the latter prevented the former.

I agree that it was silly to implement the Codex in such a fashion that you almost start a civil war right after (somewhat) averting the worst crisis in human history but that's what I mean by Gulliman's flaw being rigidity. "I'm right so feth all who disagree!" The most annoying part is that he was, in fact, right.

Well Manchu I'm glad you made this Thread. I was at the point were I wanted to make one myself. All of the "spess Marines suck" quips had become exasperating.
If you'll notice Ultramarine supporters have thoughtful multi-paragraph posts wereas the haters have "RowBoat Girlyman is a Smurf".

Anyways one thing that no one seems to bring up is that the Ultramarines are the only force whose name=their colour! That's awesome. Can you imagine if the Pinkos I mean Emperor's Children did that? (and no Black Legion doesn't count. To be equivilant they would simply be named "Black")

SInce this thread is already necroed, I'll chime in my appreciation for the defense of the Ultras. I dont play them, and dont model them (Though I do have an unpainted Sicarius that I plan to *one day* paint up all nice and wonderful) - but I do love 'em.

The points of discussion and conversation have been amny, and like Kami Canuck above me, I cant help but appreciate the disparity between Ultramarine haters - who, with some exceptions are more or less ranting- contrasting to the largely well reasoned and thought out defense of the Ultras. Such a thread, and such a defense is well warranted to be pushed to the top, IMO.

I am not a big fan of the Ultra's. I must say that the only reason that I would start Space Marines is for the Black Templar (I'm a medieval history junky) and Dark Angels (go Unforgiven and Cypher).

Manchu wrote:@Eversor-Jon: Riveting tale, chap (cool story, bro). Hadn't heard that one before. Do you have a source? I'd really like to know what chapter that captain was from.

Sallies and S-Pups are both compassionate in their ways. But do the populations of Nocturne or Fenris fare as well as those of Ultramar much less Macragge in particular?

IIRC, he didn't just chew out the commander, he knocked him out.

As far as how the population of Nocturne makes out, one of the recent short stories by Nick Kyne had one of the Salamanders companies assisting the nomads and other people from small villages migrate into a city that was hardened to deal with the regular volcanic upheavals that Nocturne goes through.

I don't like them because they in my opinion they lack depth. They have never had to make a hard decision, for the ultramarines there is always a good way and they always take it.

They aren't even the nicest SM, that goes to the SW or the Salamanders. When innocent humans are going to be killed it's the SW who protest. In my eyes that leaves them as jus sucking up to the imperium.

Agreed on the nicest part. Space Wolves seem to treat human beings almost as equals, if not in fact as actual equals.

well, except for that whole thing about using their home world as a giant blood fest filled with marauding barbarians committing every type of atrocity to one another to try to weed out the best after one or another binge of killing rape and plunder has reached its bloody climax...


The Space wolves are psychopaths in their own right; they show no mercy to some populations with little to no provocation, come in as protesting saviors for others, and above all, keep their home world as a horrific meat grinder for anyone not destined to become a space marine.

Kinda like... just about every other chapter?

Well, except the Salamanders - they seem like perfectly nice fellows, who just happen to have to live on Planet Hell. Which is probably why they are so nice, having been subjected to all that, I suppose the best way to deal with it would be a certain sense of pleasantness and even optimism.

And of course, the Ultras, who seem to have the up most regard for the well being of citizens who inhabit their realm. If that stretches to the rest of the Imperium beyond looking to protect the Imperium itself, I cant say - though I'd imagine that their civic responsibility ends outside the boarders of Ultramar, and beyond that the obligation of the Ultramarines, and the only authority they have- is to fight for the Emperor.

Which is perhaps the ultimate trait of the Ultramarines - Duty- knowledge of what that is, and what that entails, from taking on the well fare of the inhabitents of the worlds that comprise Ultramar (and in doing so higlight tyhat faileure of the Imperium itself to fulfill its own duty in regards to its citizens) to knowing what the boundaries of their authority are outside of their own realm.