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I don't think that playing UM shows any lack of creativity. Also, I think that what passes for creativity among 40k players establishing their own chapter colors/fluff is often pretty absurd. Learning about the UM and trying to model them accurately or trying to put together a Soul Drinker army straight out of the books is more impressive to me than painting up a pack of hideous marines and then writing up some ridiculous background. There are a few good examples of homemade chapters, like Rory's Vigiliant (if she ever gets around to showing us more on them), but I don't think that even the good examples are any better than the established chapters. Personally, I prefer the chapters I can read about in in the Codices and BL's stuff--something that's bigger than my own personal imagination, something that many minds have worked on. And you don't get much more "established" than UM.

Manchu wrote:...Personally, I prefer the chapters I can read about in in the Codices and BL's stuff--something that's bigger than my own personal imagination, something that many minds have worked on. And you don't get much more "established" than UM.

You're right there, of course. Personally creating a Chapter that's original and awesome is no easy option. That's why the backgrounds are there - People don't want to think too much/spend time thinking about something to paint, and they can feel totally safe in what they're doing. Also, it can become slightly mis-leading when going for the D.I.Y. approach. Something that you may think is great may well turn out to be, in other's eyes, wrong or hilarious. That's why GW always has the upper-hand. An employee could say, "Hey, does this seem alright?" and they'll get a serious, constructive response. Just any old friend/family member would say, "Yeah, that's fine." however, they don't have a clue what it is you're looking for. Someone who's actually in the hobby would be much better at this.

I don't think it's just about keeping people who are too lazy or not creative enough to create their own chapters happy. Like I said, it's about playing a part in something that's bigger than your own imagination. I am not the only SW player, for example. And I can enjoy some kind of camaraderie with other SW players. We all know what the Pups have done because the fluff is out there for all of us. Doesn't keep us from being creative, but allows us to be creative together. I think the UM have some great background and I still haven't heard any convincing reasons why they deserve so much scorn heaped upon them. Sounds more like a lot of people just getting into line with preconceived notions about what's cool and what's not.

Manchu wrote:I still haven't heard any convincing reasons why they deserve so much scorn heaped upon them. Sounds more like a lot of people just getting into line with preconceived notions about what's cool and what's not.

You didn't find any of the points I and others made about outside of fluff reasons convincing for why we dislike them? (not that I was really trying to convince anyone, rather just explain my own reasoning)

Wel,l aside from the "everyone plays them" angle--which I find utterly unconvincing--there seem to be two arguments:

(1) Codex Astartes was a symptom of Guilliman's egomania and

(2) GW allowed UM to usurp CF.

It seems to me that the Codex Astartes has prevented another Heresy, so the first argument has no traction. As to the second argument, while valid for the older gamers, it really can't comprehensively explain the prejudices. Plus, CF and UM are not so different. To my knowledge, CF aren't appreciably less adherent to the Codex than UM. The only difference is that the CF are homeless. They haven't totally be usurped. In fact, they are making a fluff recovery in 5th edition. They've got Pedro on the books now and are given a lot of spot light in Planetstrike.

But if you're just looking for people to express their reasons for disliking the UMs (and I'll presume no one would bother to lie about their reasons) clearly some of those above stated reasons (whether acceptable to you or not) are indeed reasons that people dislike them.

I'll also add that, since lots of other players seem to dislike them probably a fair number of players decide to continue to dislike them simply because it appears to be the "in" thing to do.

I know when I make fun of Tau (who I dislike, albeit mildly, for other reasons) I refer to the as fish'eads of fishies or somesuch - not because I think they look like fishes but simply because others have adopted that as a term for expressing displeasure towards them and I glommed onto it. It might be that Ultramarine hate is simply an outgrowth of "others hate them so I will too" as well as, perhaps, some generalized Space Marine dislike that is targeted at the poster boys (because they are, I feel quite obviously, that)

Well, I anticipated some of this in the original post. And the thread was intended to be more of an argument that UM representing a silver lining to the Grimdark, not about whether or not a lot of twelve year olds want to play them. Remember, the topic is not "Why do you hate Ultramarines"? Of course, replies along those lines are to be expected but they are actually off-topic. That's why I only mentioned the two arguments that I did: first, that the Codex is not actually a silver lining at all and second, that the CF are the disinherited poster boys.

I don't understand the actual Ultramarine hate myself, actually. I understand the jokes - Rowboat being called 'Girlyman' for hardly doing anything to help fight the Heresy (Though mostly due to it's timing), 'Vanilla Marines' because they're on every piece of artwork and box cover in the range, etc...

But I don't understand where the dislike of them comes from. This has puzzled me from day one. Like Thor said, it's probably just a bandwagon thing. Personally I think the Ultramarines have some decent (albeight boring at times) fluff. There's nothing in the fluff to really hate about them, except for perhaps Marneus' insufferable ego and Sicarius' ability to win, or nearly win, every battle he's in. Perhaps it's just the fact that they're kind of the mold for the ideal chapter. I'm not sure.

The only thing I don't like about UM's is that they're splattered all over everything. They're the poster boys as others have said. It's not worth -hating- them over. I'd just like to see more variety.

metallifan wrote:
I don't understand the actual Ultramarine hate myself, actually...

But I don't understand where the dislike of them comes from. This has puzzled me from day one.

It's like hating the Yankees. Some people like the Yankees because they have a proud tradition of winning and excellence and all that. Some people hate them for the same reason.

Lore wise, I don't have much of a problem with the Ultramarines. I like the Roman and Spartan overtones of thier theme. The problem that I have is that they're the poster boys for Space Marines for anything GW puts out. There are so many other chapters with interesting lore, heraldry and styles but 90% of what is seen, outside of a new release for another chapter, is Ultramarines. I've had to explain why my Dark Angels aren't painted like Ultramarines to several people because when they think Space Marine they think of the boys in blue. We all get it. The Ultra Marines are the founders of the Codex Astartes. That fact alone shouldn't marginalize the other chapters in GW's marketing.
Note: I was really surprised and pleased with the DA and SW appearence inthe new Planetstrike book.

Considering that per the fluff, that Guilliman was so successful in managing the UM that they accounted for over half of all Space Marines after the Horus Heresy (pg13 of codex SM). So, just going off of basic demographics like that- it makes sense that the majority of the SM content out there is UM based, simply as they are the most common 1st founding.

And for the boneheads that keep saying the UM/Guilliman didnt do anything during the Horus Heresy: "Knowing of Guillimans lethal efficiency at war, Horus had masterfully planned his rebellion to begin while the Ultramarines were fighting in the far galactic south"

So, if Horus had the sense to plan his attack like that- because Guilliman was an excellent general/leader, and because the UM was the largest legion- it tells me Horus had the sense to be afraid of/respect them to the point he organized his entire rebellion around them being far away.

Mistress of minis wrote:And for the boneheads that keep saying the UM/Guilliman didnt do anything during the Horus Heresy: "Knowing of Guillimans lethal efficiency at war, Horus had masterfully planned his rebellion to begin while the Ultramarines were fighting in the far galactic south"

So, if Horus had the sense to plan his attack like that- because Guilliman was an excellent general/leader, and because the UM was the largest legion- it tells me Horus had the sense to be afraid of/respect them to the point he organized his entire rebellion around them being far away.

I would say that may be another reason for the hate, Largest Legion, Guilliman being ridiculously brilliant at waging war, his picking on Alpharius.

Me I don't hate UM, mainly just the ridiculousness of Calgar, and the Chief Librarian. Oh and how Cassius is like 500 years old and claimed to be one of the Oldest Living Space Marines. Last I checked Commander Dante has been around for over 1200 years and Logan has been Great Wolf for 500, thats just how long his been the Big Wolf not how long he's been alive.

BrotherStynier wrote:
Me I don't hate UM, mainly just the ridiculousness of Calgar, and the Chief Librarian. Oh and how Cassius is like 500 years old and claimed to be one of the Oldest Living Space Marines. Last I checked Commander Dante has been around for over 1200 years and Logan has been Great Wolf for 500, thats just how long his been the Big Wolf not how long he's been alive.

Well, they arent saying he IS the oldest....just one of the oldest. So it makes sense that some Chapter Masters are older. I mean, if 90% of space marines are 100 years old or less, being 500 years old would make him one of the oldest

Why do I hate the Ultramarines?

I dont hate them. I dislike them, however. I think that I dislike them for the same root reason that other players do. Gamers are used to marching to the beat of their own drum, or at least thinking that they do. Most gamers came into the hobby feeling slightly alienated (the vast majority of us are self-proclaimed 'geeks') and like many alienated people take pride in being different.

The positive side is that this makes many of us more self-reliant, more independent, and gives us a thicker skin. The downside is that it tends to make us dismissive of mainstream things, contemptuous of 'the sheeple' and all their mindless adherence to the current fads.

Following that, many gamers refuse to follow what they perceive as 'the norm'. They dislike what everyone else is doing simply because everyone else is doing it. This is what results in people hating Space Marines ("Everyone plays them!") and amongst Space Marine players, the Ultramarines.

You aren't going to like everything about any particular chapter. I play Salamanders, and I seriously wish that our Chapter symbol wasn't so hard to draw freehand, that Vulkan Hestan had a weapon that was smaller than a big ass polearm, etc. So the people who have already decided to dislike the Ultramarines pick the things that they dislike and label them as the reason they dont like the Ultramarines.

I dont think that they are making up their reasons, mind you. I think that most people's big problem with them is that they are perceived as the 'mainstream' choice.




And on a separate tangent, I think that the Codex absolutely prevented another Heresy. The Imperium is all about the idea that for mankind to survive, we must become a society of rigid xenophobia and ironclad, brutal discipline. This discipline and xenophobia must be enforced by the most disciplined and rigid group of all (the Ultramarines) so that their motives are above reproach. The Codex is a roadmap for other Chapters to 'go and do thou likewise'. It isn't the only option (the Space Wolves did just fine on their own) but since it works, it is a good foundation for other Chapters to operate under.

However, even though they are the most rigid, disciplined, and unreproachable Chapters of the Astartes, doesn't mean I want to play them. After all, everyone plays those guys!

Again, I'd say SW do fine without (more than less) the Codex because of the particular character of Russ. He's just not made of the stuff of traitors. I think the Codex most prominently prevented the fall of Rogal Dorn.

When I started with the ultramarines two years ago, everyone at another forum was like: Nooo, they are uverused! They sux! Blaaaaaaah gak!
And I say it here like I said on the other forum, it's not the ultramarines that are overused, it's the second company.
Really, ever seen a army of ultramarines with red/other company color shoulder pad ends and not gold? And a new codex?
Black reach: 2nd company with Sicarius.
Battle of macragge? Sure the story was about the 1st company, but the soldiers on the box was 2nd company with gold shoulder pads.
And the latest "The Spear of Sicarius"? 2nd company.
I hate that wannabe Sicarius Cato and his 2nd company.
I say it's they who gives the Ultramarines a bad name.

Cor, Im with ya on the 2nd Company. Ive seen more than a few 1,3 and 4th.

Which is why I picked the 7th, well, that and the purple trim

I like that theyre a reserve company, and they're all trained as speeder pilots, and as I like Speeders, it also works out well since I run 6-9 of them

Mistress, I would marry you for being so intellectual in this matter!

But um... I wont...

BTW: I collect the third company myself.

I saw a bumpersticker on the highway the other day that said "I drive this way just to piss you off".

Since reading that, I'm tempted to play Ultras

lol

There are 5 main reasons I dislike the Ultramarines.

1) The 'Ultra' part of their name. I'm sorry, how cheesy?
2)Marneus Calgar and Chaplain Cassius.
3)Being portrayed as the "Bestest best" by GW when all they've really done is marched around the parade grounds in their perfect little home system, and Being Gribbled by 'nids.
4) AOBR.
5)MARNEUS CALGAR AND CHAPLAIN CASSIUS!!!!!

Cpt. Obvious = me

Ultramarines are a little more bland compared to the other main chapters. They follow all the rules for their armies and as such don't have as many funky combinations to play with.

The name? Fine really. Marneus Calgar? I like him. Looks like an awesome boxer.

There's a pretty simple reason as to why they have a single chapter as the 'face' of Space Marines.

It's a shorthand way of identifying which models are 'universal' - if each box had a different chapter on the front, then there'd be all kinds of confusion. If it's consistent, you can walk up top the Wall o' Marines and know that you can use any of the boxes with the blue guys on them, and if you play BA for example, you know you can have the boxes in blue and red. It's a type of branding - that's why they're everywhere.

As for why choose U's? Well - they've spent a good deal of time telling people that they are the 'truest' chapter - so it would be daft to use anyone else for the visual identity of a 'basic' Space Marine because by their own definition, all other chapters are deviations.

Why do I play them? Because when I first started, I liked the colours. I still play them because it seems every other chapter is so dreadfully angst-ridden - they all seem to have a secret curse or a dreadful past or tragic founding, and each seems to be trying so hard to be the Grimdarkest of them all

Not at the level of Ultramarines but I am getting some flak for playing a Blood Ravens theme.

They have the mysterious chaos link and lots of skeletons in the closet. I usually have a librarian leading the group as the benefits are endless (and it adheres to fluff ;p).

The people that mess with me are the hardcore grognards who give me the, "Oh, you're one of those computer gaming nerds".

I dunno, been a while since I posted in this thread, but I still think that anyone hating the Ultramarines is kind of slowed.



1) "I hate them because they're GW poster boys!"

Basic rule of storytelling - your audience needs a sympathetic character to attach themselves to before they immerse themselves in your story. If they don't care about the characters, they don't care about your story. That's all you need to know as to why the Ultramarines are who they are, and rose to the PR prominence they rose to.

Where you see Ultramarines in advertising you see someplace that GW has made some sort of foothold. Be happy when you see the Ultramarines. It means you're home.



2) "I hate them because everyone plays them."

When I got into 40K, the first thing I bought after playing Dawn of War for months was the Battle for Macragge paint set. Three Marines, five pots of paint I think (maybe six), some transfers. No idea what I was doing beyond following directions as the only models I had ever assembled prior to that point were some Star Trek models when I was seven that were a disaster and thus led to disinterest for the rest of my childhood, and then some Gundam models a few years before I tried 40K.

Made three Ultramarines. Realized this was something I could do. Then I bought Battle for Macragge proper. Wanted the new Marines to match the existing Marines, so painted them in the same colors.

Why would I have chosen some other Space Marine Chapter so early? I didn't know one from the other, didn't know the fluff, was still learning the rules...I just wanted an army to play with, and as quickly as possible, and I'd already made inroads with a 2nd Company Ultramarine force.

Don't blame the Ultramarine players, blame GW for making the Ultramarines our starting point...and then give up hating GW for it because it's purile once you understand the "why" behind the marketing. See point #1.



3) "All Ultramarine players play 2nd Company."

For a while, probably. But then a lot of them "graduate." My new army is mostly 1st Company Terminators and Sternguard, with supporting elements from 2nd. It's just not worth painting over all the old shoulder-trim of my older Ultramarine models when there's work to be done on new stuff...though it is interesting that my Sternguard are all converted from my original Macragge Marines. There's a little less gold for people to have to look at.



4) "Anyone who plays a popular Chapter are "sheeple."

Blood Ravens players get this one as well, which is a particularly slowed argument. Dawn of War is one of the best things to happen to 40K in a long, long time. Exposed a whole new audience to the hobby. Be grateful for every new 40K player who enters our world through the portal of a Blood Ravens Space Marine army.

I generally find that anyone who hates the "sheeple" in one aspect of life are, themselves, part of the "sheeple" somewhere else. No one's entirely unique, get over yourself. You fit into a group somewhere whether you want to or not, and it doesn't make you a worse person for it. Everyone, in their own way, is normative somehow.



Last point - it's important, if you want to be mature and reasonable about this, to differentiate between new and established Ultramarine players. Take the "new to the hobby" Ultramarine players and toss them out of your consciousness. They are not really "Ultramarine players." It's the established Ultramarine players like myself who count as "Ultramarine players."

In my experience, Ultramarine players are people who are attracted to the Ultras fluff for a reason. Most of the ones I know are good sportsmen in tournaments. We pay a lot of attention to detail in our painting work, in particular squad markings and organization. We know the rules or know how to settle rules debates quickly and politely. I don't know any of us in the Ultramarines community on B&C who are power-gamers.

Learn to make the distinction between "40K noobs playing Ultras because that's all they know" and "Ultramarine players who are well-ensconced in the fluff, who may have multiple armies they play, but who have chosen to stick with the Ultramarines as well." These are entirely different animals.

In many ways, any thread complaining about the Ultramarines could remove the word "Ultramarines" from all the text and just be complaints about "40K noobs." That's really what you're kvetching about, not the Boys in Blue.

Ultramarines suck for a bunch of reasons..

Their name, Their colour scheme, Rowboat, Superman sydrome.

When I think of Ultras I think of this.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blightdron wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Ultramarines = Superman.

Sorry to have to bring this up again, but Ultramarines are clearly better than Superman.

Yes, they may wear blue suits. Yes, they may be super strong and Yes, they may be able to withstand lots of bullets.


BUT! You don't see Ultramarines crapping themselves when someone pulls out some cryptonite do you!?!

Cheers!

Jack.

Their kryptonite is following the codex to the letter.

EDIT Also cheese that was a great post.. haha

haha above image is nail in the coffin for thread.

1-I really get a chuckle out of "Gulliman is such a genius/master of strategy that Horus (and other people, later on) tricked him into having the Ultramarines where nothing was happening." Wow, way to go, genius.

2-A lot of 40K players dislike marines in general, for various reasons. Since the Ultramarines are pretty much the poster boys for Marines, all those players will automatically dislike the Ultras.

3-For Space Marine players, especially for those who don't get their own Codex, it can be frustrating to read all the Fluff about the Ultramarines while your own Chapter is mentioned twice. And even for those with their own Codex, they (obviously) don't get as much attention as the generic marine, so even that applies.

4-For me personally... Ultramar is the name of a MAJOR chain of gas stations in Quebec, where I'm from. And sorry, but I have a hard time taking seriously Marines who are based out of a gas station.

Barakia wrote:3-For Space Marine players, especially for those who don't get their own Codex, it can be frustrating to read all the Fluff about the Ultramarines while your own Chapter is mentioned twice. And even for those with their own Codex, they (obviously) don't get as much attention as the generic marine, so even that applies.

Well, to defend this point, I chose SW because I loved their viking fluff, and Ultras... well, I'm not that into the romanesque thing they have, of course, I have Codex SM and most of the "mentioned" chapters there are mere color schemes that one may play if they look cool, but nothing else.

4-For me personally... Ultramar is the name of a MAJOR chain of gas stations in Quebec, where I'm from. And sorry, but I have a hard time taking seriously Marines who are based out of a gas station.

I find it a pretentious name, since it's the spanish medieval name for the Holy Land back in the crusades (being Outremer in french, since they started it all).

Barakia wrote:1-I really get a chuckle out of "Gulliman is such a genius/master of strategy that Horus (and other people, later on) tricked him into having the Ultramarines where nothing was happening." Wow, way to go, genius.

My other favorite was his eventual fall to the bad arse of all bad arsedness - Fulgrim the Prince of Pleasure.

Yeah, Rowboat was caught by surprise that, as a demon prince, Fulgrim was apparently a little bit tougher then just as a primarch and thus when he charged into hand to hand combat with the primarch cum demon prince he was not able to overpower it and was mortally wounded. Good situational awareness there, buddy.

At least most of the others just had the common decency to *all* go jump into the Eye of Terror for various reasons.