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Is it a house rule that you count chronus as a extra kill point?he is an upgrade for a tank not an extra character

It should be noted that a predator with lascannon sponsons and an autocannon turret is a great tank, that still benefits from chronus.

and IMO Chronus is best placed on tanks with as many shots as possible, even if they are twin-linked, or a tank that really hurts when it doesn't hit stuff, like las preds.


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Octavius Widowmaker wrote:Is it a house rule that you count chronus as a extra kill point?he is an upgrade for a tank not an extra character

Read his rules.

To answer a previous poster who isn't just here to troll:

Sicarious is awesome. He's my standby character, the true center of my force in most games. He's got to be the most versatile character in the SM book, maybe in the entire game.

I can't wait to hear what negative comment Rory will come up with just for the heck of it, but before you listen to that droll diatribe, I urge you to check out some of my battle reports from a while back on this forum if you want to see Sicarious in action.

I actually made my Ultramarines Second Company with a home-made Captain Sicarious long before the rules came out for him. When I opened the new codex and read through everything in the pre-release copy at my FLGS, I had them put me down for a Sicarious model right away. I figured he would fly off the shelves because it seems like he's every single thing an SM player would want in an HQ and more. Suprisingly enough, he didn't catch on well in my area at first. I've played my Demi-Company a few times in the local area, and every time I've suprised someone with how this "mediocre" character performs.

Of course, I'm a sneaky tactician, too. I make the most out of his skill granting ability, and people have come to hate that instead of one trick, my army has a choice of four.

I started a thread here in the Tactics section to discuss Unit Synergy with Sicarious and his granted skill, but trolls inevitably brought it down with all the
"ZOMG WAI U LEIK SiCARIOUs, LAEIK, FO REALZ?"

I got tired of it and walked away for the time being. There were a couple neat tricks thrown out, my favorite being Outflanking a tactical squad in a Rhino with all-melta loadout for late-game armor breaking and base capturing. Counter-attack has also served me well against other Marine opponents, but not as well as Tank Hunters has done with my Lascannon/Meltagun/C-Melta/PF squad.

Needless to say, the internet criticism of him was completely unfounded, and had I listened to that drivel, I'd be having a lot less fun, and a have a lot fewer wins.

The problem with siccy is that he's everywhere in terms of gear and rules, and only really helps out a SM army heavy on infantry.

Which is not what everyone plays.

The skills he grants is lacklustre at most. His offense and defense are cool and on the above average side for HQ's, but a fist is still his bane even with a 4++, while his offense is really meh.

His shining point is that his Board Ld 10 doesn't replace combat tactics. In addition to RR seize, but I don't know about you, but I much rather go second.

That's how I see it, obviously everyone has different opinions and experiences.
It might be Siccy is awesome as hell, or it might be the rest of list performed well with him in it affecting the outcome or not.
They could be mutually exclusive, they may not be.

/Shrug, plus his cost...really...that much, that's like a 1850 or more like 2000 and beyond level games IMO.

My 7 Cents.

@:Sanctjud

Valid points but theres a good range of ways to play Sicarius

Drop pod heavy lists he's a dream. You go first and a remove several of the enemy units.

Combining a Tactical squad with infiltrate and a teleport homer and have your Terminators free from scatter

Combining a Tactical squad with Tank hunter, Meltagun, Combi-Melta and Multi-Melta. That''s effectively Str9+2D6

Combining a Tactical Squad with Scout and a Plasma Cannon. Move them up into a good spot and start dropping blasts turn 1



Sicarius him self isn't to shabby he got a 2+ armour save, 4+ inv and Feel No Pain (not for getting 3 attacks +1 2CCW and +1 on the charge)

@Tri:
With respect to an open list environment, who deploys their fragile units on the board when they are facing a pod list...

RR sieze is not a guarentee first turn...

Infiltratin/Homer termies: well you could have easily podded them in, or just drive there.
Terminators are elidgable to enter starting turn 2 not 1.
Hell, get scouts with a locator beacon.

Tank hunting tacs: that's the only 'great' skill, and even the it's lacklustre, you are in 2D6 range of 2 melta weapons when podding in (combi and normal melta) it's most likely dead anyway.

Scouting Plasma cannon: who doesn't use area terrain, if you are in area terrain then it doesn't matter which direction plasma comes from.
If it's a rhino wall, it doesn't matter where the plasma cannon hits

To his defesive stats: they are great at absorbing small arms, but he's no different than normal SM HQ's with only a 4++ vs. fists.

And his offensive is not that much different from normal captains, sure he gets on str 6 attack, but it's only one.

My 7 Cents.

i run two librarians to protect my stern...

although i have been considering fielding one Libbi and He'stan; I hate missing with melta/flamer

No, not really. I never would in a competitive environment.
I prefer a Librarian with nullzone as there are many psykers out there in the 40k universe.

GeneralRetreat wrote:To answer a previous poster who isn't just here to troll:



If this is in refrence to me then by all means say your piece otherwise be more specific when you call someone a troll. I have not used Tigurius yet but am about to start experimenting with him to see what kind of uses i can get out of him.

No, he was calling me the troll, don't worry octavius.

Chronus seems like a superexpensive upgrade to me.

Putting him on something with few shots that are twinlinked is ugh.

LRC is the only LR id consider putting him on, but LRCs are supposed to be driving up the board, and then start shooting.

Plus 2 Hurricanes get you 12 shots at most, so youll prolly be missing 1-2 shots a turn. Not something id buy such a huge model for. Only if the game is so big, all troop choices have been maxxed. For his points youre already close to the 80 needed for 5 tac marines. Those easily give me the extra hits per turn, provide the same killpoints, and give me 5 extra wounds, and an extra troop to grab an objective.

Dakka Preds are alll good for him though.

IMO even at BS5 dakka preds are lackluster, las + autocannon preds are better for him.

Noting that no one has talked about Telion, I'd like to bring him up, as even though he is fairly expensive, the ability to take a Krak missile with a BS of 6 is just too good an opportunity to pass up. I haven't bought one, but I'm definitely going to have one, as his rules are kick- . He can also pick out individual targets. Goodbye farseers!

MC

Good bye farseers?
I think you are overestimating his gun.

Though it can rend, you still have to get through 3 wounds, 4++, which most likely be fortuned... or a 3+ armor on a jetbike.

Telion is nifty, his gun/ability is better off.... offing squad sargeants, basically one wound models that rending can kill, avoiding cover and stuff.

Even then he's really expensive for what you get, and you need a scout squad, which are questionable in a highly competitive environment.

For fun and kicks, sure.

My 7 Cents.

Or heavy weapons or assault weapons bearers.

Sanctjud wrote:Well, lets just say jump pack then.
It makes the reg. chappy close to Cassius, but it allows him to keep up with assault marines.... sort of the bread and better for some lists.

You lost me right there. Assault marines are fail.

Sanctjud wrote:Cassius can't do that. He's nice, but limited is all I'm saying.

Which is what you are saying at the same time. You are more positive, while I'm more of a downer I guess.

My 7 Cents.

You mean you would rather take a regular chappy, give him a jump pack just so you could waste more points on assault marines?

And you think 25pts for cassius for t6, fnp and combi-flamer is a waste of points?

Wow.


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Canonness Rory wrote:

GeneralRetreat wrote:/facepalm

Simple math here, guys.

[deleted for length]

Very simple math there guys. Increasing the BS of a non-TL shot is a greater benefit than increasing the BS of a TL shot.

When you look at what Chronus does, you need to look at how much he _improves_ the unit if you want a real measure of efficiency to investment.

Congrats, you can do math, but you don't understand basic logic.

Where the logic fails, outside of the math, is that it's a 70pt upgrade. Combine that with the limited bonus that he would grant and logic says chronus is not worth it.

@Imweasel:

Sure, assault marines are not ‘all that’. They are cheaper than Chaos Raptors and do their job decently.
The topic is: does anyone use those named characters, and I say I don’t, and offer some alternatives.

You can explain why you don’t like them as I’ve explained why I don’t think the 25 point increase on Cassius is worth it---TO ME---.
Just read and comment about my rationale, you don’t add much when all you address is:

“Assault marines are fail.” They could be, but that doesn’t stop people from using them, maybe to good effect even.

”You mean you would rather take a regular chappy, give him a jump pack just so you could waste more points on assault marines? “
It didn’t occur to you that some people are making the most of what they have?

Another issue for me with Cassius is that you almost have to have some sort of transport to deliver him, but some lists don’t have room for him.
10 man squads in rhino’s are supposed to be flexible, but if you ‘must’ combat squad just to get the space to throw cassius in, you lose a bit of that flexibility.

But hell he should be chilling with a squad geared for combat….soooooo what?
Assault termines in a LR, prob. the best place for him to be.

Lets look at his pros over a normal chappy:
-Combi-flamer: cool, but you won’t shoot that prior to assault really, for fear of losing charge range or enemy falling back.
-Hellfire rounds: well…. You won’t be rapid firing before a charge now would you…
-T6: is blunted for the purposes of wound the whole squad until you are left with one terminator. You CAN absorb any str weapon that’s ap 3,4,5,6, - but he only has 2 wounds.
-FNP: is cool as well, but it’s the mediocre number of wounds that really blunts the shineyness of this rule, T6 meshes nicely with FNP.

So what does he offer an assault oriented squad?
RR to hit and fearless (which a normal Chappy can do), then he adds 2 wounds to the squad, ONE of which will be used to absorb wounds for the squad in shooting. It is effectively T4 for wounding, but can take any str hit without instant dying, and gets FNP unless it’s AP1/2/ignoring armor.

So he himself offers a REALLY durable single wound to the squad.

Now, some think the extra 25 points makes him worth it, others don’t. I prefer to have the extra 25 points on hand, as I usually have more points to play with.
That 25 points can be thrown onto a LRC (multi-melta and extra armor)….makes the assault boat ignore shaken to continue moving forward, and has the option of tank busting with the MM using machine spirit.

/Shrug, I don’t think Cassius’s special stuff is useless, it’s just not effective in the big picture. He’s a flashy choice, no doubt, but I find that the 2 wounds is such a turn-off for a dude that looks so durable on paper.

My 7 Cents.

I think the thing to remember with Cassius is that in melee he is nearly unkillable short fists (and even then).
Since he is an IC he can avoid fists by not being in base with them when coming out of a LR. All those swinging at him will need to get past his high WS (needing a 4+ probably) his really high T (5-6+ unless they are MCs or fists) and then his armor/invulnerable and FNP. He even rocks enemy ICs with power weapons, since they still need 5-6+ to wound him and then have to get around the Inv save.
If you have an assaulting squad without jump packs (terminators, assalt/vanguard vets without packs, command squads) that are scooting about in a LR of some sort, he is a really powerful addition for just a tiny increase in the cost of a chaplain.

Wehrkind wrote:I think the thing to remember with Cassius is that in melee he is nearly unkillable short fists (and even then).
Since he is an IC he can avoid fists by not being in base with them when coming out of a LR. All those swinging at him will need to get past his high WS (needing a 4+ probably) his really high T (5-6+ unless they are MCs or fists) and then his armor/invulnerable and FNP. He even rocks enemy ICs with power weapons, since they still need 5-6+ to wound him and then have to get around the Inv save.
If you have an assaulting squad without jump packs (terminators, assalt/vanguard vets without packs, command squads) that are scooting about in a LR of some sort, he is a really powerful addition for just a tiny increase in the cost of a chaplain.

QFT

People often forget how ridiculous toughness 6 can be, especially when marines don't have ready access to it like some other armies do. The fact that he either wrecks opposing units (if the enemy directs attacks at his accompanying unit instead of him) or soaks an absurd number of attacks in close combat can't be overstated.

Can you mix him with Shrike for some Fleet lovin' goodness?

Probably... I don't think he lacks for combat tactics, but I don't know off the top of my head.

whitedragon wrote:Can you mix him with Shrike for some Fleet lovin' goodness?

Yep. He doesn't have any special rules that replace combat tactics. So...yannow, enjoy.

You can mix both, Shrike for fleet and Cassius with a squad.
Pricey, you might have to watch it low points games.

I'm not saying the defensive qualities of Cassius are bad, I'm saying it's limited by the low wounds he has.

It's only two wounds, granted they are tough 2 wounds, but just two.
He can only absorb one fist wound (which is great itself, but that's really it before he dies).

I see it as this:
Many overweight the T6 and FNP.
At least I overweight the low number of wounds.

My 7 Cents.

Can't Librarians get a psychic hood? Those are beast against psyker armies.

They come with hoods standard.

Canonness Rory wrote:IMO even at BS5 dakka preds are lackluster, las + autocannon preds are better for him.

Youre right, forgot to include that. Thats what you get for writing a post and drifting off halfway in the middle of it.


Cassius has to stick in close combat, where T6 starts to matter. But thats where all cahppies are supposed to be. Actually id play Cassius with an honor guard squad with cahpter banner. in LRC.

All eggs in one basket, but hits like a freight train. Question is, when is it NOT overkill? High invul saves squads dont count ^^.

Honor guard = exensive wanna be terminators
Mandatory Master = overpriced for OB that never hits
Cassius = tougher chappy.
LRC= more points...
Blowing up the LRC and making them huff it, Priceless.

For everything else, there's Assault Terminators.

My 7 Cents.

Making the enemy expend 75% of his army to kill a single LRC. Perfect for the other 1500k my army actually is made of.

Honor guard, no 5+ invul, but 5 points cheaper, gets 5 attacks on the charge due to chapter banner. so more attack make up for the fact of no rerolls on the to wound. extra bolters and bolt pistol for shooty.

Squad of 9 with chapter banner comes in at 30 points more expensive than a 8 Termie squad, actually fits inside a Rhino instead of only the LRC, so can jump the next transport no probs.

So since LR are nice and useful now, id consider them not too bad a choice, especially for the reason above.

The mandatory Chapter master isnt too good, but its 25 points for something fun, that you can use in a pinch. Use Pedro Cantor or Calgar if you want to have a good Chapter Master with all the tricks.

So all i can say, is repeat myself its the all eggs in one basket approach.

And assault termies walking are perfect fodder for any Plasma army. TH/SS is a different story, but they do not form a comparison against the Honor guard. Since they practically die against it.

Chaplains for assaults and vets. It works.

Sanctjud wrote: @Imweasel:

Sure, assault marines are not ‘all that’. They are cheaper than Chaos Raptors and do their job decently.
The topic is: does anyone use those named characters, and I say I don’t, and offer some alternatives.

I am striclty speaking in the context of cassius being a waste of 25pts over a regular chappy.

Sanctjud wrote:You can explain why you don’t like them as I’ve explained why I don’t think the 25 point increase on Cassius is worth it---TO ME---.
Just read and comment about my rationale, you don’t add much when all you address is:

“Assault marines are fail.” They could be, but that doesn’t stop people from using them, maybe to good effect even.

Good effect vs inferior opponents perhaps. All things being equal, spending points on assault marines rather than other much more effective units is a far more waste of points than a 25pt upgrade by taking cassius over a regular chappy. Which is my point.

Sanctjud wrote:”You mean you would rather take a regular chappy, give him a jump pack just so you could waste more points on assault marines? “
It didn’t occur to you that some people are making the most of what they have?

Another issue for me with Cassius is that you almost have to have some sort of transport to deliver him, but some lists don’t have room for him.
10 man squads in rhino’s are supposed to be flexible, but if you ‘must’ combat squad just to get the space to throw cassius in, you lose a bit of that flexibility.

Throwing any chappy, cassius or otherwise, in a tac squad just...doesn't...make...sense. This is so nonsensical that it should not even be a consideration.

Sanctjud wrote:But hell he should be chilling with a squad geared for combat….soooooo what?

Just like any other chappy. Another non-point?

Sanctjud wrote:Assault termines in a LR, prob. the best place for him to be.

Like any other chappy.

Sanctjud wrote:Lets look at his pros over a normal chappy:
-Combi-flamer: cool, but you won’t shoot that prior to assault really, for fear of losing charge range or enemy falling back.
-Hellfire rounds: well…. You won’t be rapid firing before a charge now would you…
-T6: is blunted for the purposes of wound the whole squad until you are left with one terminator. You CAN absorb any str weapon that’s ap 3,4,5,6, - but he only has 2 wounds.
-FNP: is cool as well, but it’s the mediocre number of wounds that really blunts the shineyness of this rule, T6 meshes nicely with FNP.

He avoids double toughness instant death. He should be walking into fights where angels fear to tread. All chappys have 2 wounds, so continuing to use that argument should lead you to believe that chappies just shouldn't be used. You forget that the T6 in close combat is really good. It prevents instant death by double toughness and makes <str6 power weapons pretty damn useless.

Sanctjud wrote:So what does he offer an assault oriented squad?
RR to hit and fearless (which a normal Chappy can do), then he adds 2 wounds to the squad, ONE of which will be used to absorb wounds for the squad in shooting. It is effectively T4 for wounding, but can take any str hit without instant dying, and gets FNP unless it’s AP1/2/ignoring armor.

And this is quite huge, which means you are underplaying it quite well to show your point.

Sanctjud wrote:So he himself offers a REALLY durable single wound to the squad.

As opposed to a REALLY crappy single wound to the squad?

Sanctjud wrote:Now, some think the extra 25 points makes him worth it, others don’t. I prefer to have the extra 25 points on hand, as I usually have more points to play with.
That 25 points can be thrown onto a LRC (multi-melta and extra armor)….makes the assault boat ignore shaken to continue moving forward, and has the option of tank busting with the MM using machine spirit.

Every sm land raider should have a mm. Period. I would suggest finding the 15pts for extra armor someplace else or simply forego the extra armor.

Sanctjud wrote:/Shrug, I don’t think Cassius’s special stuff is useless, it’s just not effective in the big picture. He’s a flashy choice, no doubt, but I find that the 2 wounds is such a turn-off for a dude that looks so durable on paper.

It's far more than 'on paper' and 'the big picture'.

Sanctjud wrote:My 7 Cents.

Judging from the arguments you presented, I would say it's barely 2 cents, but whatever...

All I can say is if you want to take assault marines for whatever reason (fluff, something different, etc.) then the regular chappy is where you should be.

All other things considered, Cassius is no doubt worth the 25pts over most other upgrades in the codex.>