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I too am coming back! Mainly because of SPACE HULK, which got me into 40k back in 1989/90. After 3 yrs of not playing I'll go BLOOD ANGELS since those minis in SPACE HULK are BA and soooo freakin awsome!

It has been several years since my last game. But that is purely because I play Dark Eldar. On the table my army looks ridiculous compared to anything else I fight because the models are so shameful. I'm often told my paint job compensates, (http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-search.jsp?u=8815&utype=own) but I still just want more respectable looking models. GW gets no more money from me, nor will I play again until they stop dragging their feet with DE.

Out of everything in the new rulebook the one rule I miss the most is : Overwatch.

Overwatch needed to go. Melee armies never stood a chance otherwise. Could you imagine Tau with overwatch?

Overwatch made for a stifled game imo, it was made for space hulk and should have stayed there. Other than the inconsistencies due to codex creep etc, the overall ruleset 40k has now is pretty good for a good, clean and quick fight.

Archonate wrote:Overwatch needed to go. Melee armies never stood a chance otherwise. Could you imagine Tau with overwatch?

Meh. They'd auto-lose to Guard with overwatch.

Evilclown wrote:That being said, I can now move on to the 1st major issue I have with GW: Pricing. I understand they have to make a profit, have to adjust prices based on materials cost, and the popularity of the model. The issue I have is the seeming randomness of the prices. There are units that take much less metal or plastic to assemble, but cost almost twice as much as other units i.e. the terminator squad of 5 costs $50, while a tactical squad of marines costs only $35.

I don't think the cost of materials has anything to do with the price of a miniature, because raw materials are extremely cheap. The relevant cost factors are molds and design, both of which are not tied to number of minis sold. But you have to sell enough minis in order to make up for those costs. Therefore, minis which typically sell more (like troops) should be cheaper than those that sell less (like elite or HQ).
Now, I don't think GW's prices are based on cost at all. They're probably purely artificial and based only on what people are willing to pay.

The GWs here in Japan have hardly anyone under 25 in them. There was a teenager with his father who were playing 40K, but everyone else was of drinking/voting age. I say that because it is/was election day, and they were going drinking after gaming instead of voting. The big difference here is that GW is the sole engine for the hobby. There are no real 'independent' clubs or stores that sell their stuff.

On "the relevant cost factor" question, here it is the rent for the store that drives the prices to be astronomical. I dropped almost $40 US for the Ork Codex. But when you need you fix...

I bought Rogue Trader, but never really got into 40k until 2nd edition came out. I played pretty steadily all through 2nd, and then drifted away after 3rd came out-3rd changed the army I played (Eldar) enough that I lost interest despite the fact that it was a better game.

Getting back into it now, and it's a better game than it's ever been. The prices drive me a little crazy, though that's cushioned somewhat by playing Orks. I not only get the awesome AoBR deal, but Ork boxed sets seem to be a little friendlier than most armies in terms of bits.

I never played at a GW store-there wasn't one around for most of the time I played. I still play at the the FLGS I've played at for years, and the owner there doesn't care if we bust out Blood Bowl or whatever in the back room.

I will say this, though-the GW players are definitely older than they used to be. When I was playing 2nd ed, there were a bunch of teenagers playing and getting into it. I still play with a lot of those guys, but there don't seem to be many teenagers taking their place.

Well I've come back into it, the last time I truly played was Rogue Trader and then 2nd Edition, the prices for the models back then were a nice cheap price..imagine the heart attack I had when I walked into my local GW store almost 15-20yrs later... my wallet hurts

I've been back into the hobby for a few months now after a good 13-14 year break.

I first got into wargames at the age of 11 through a wargaming/RPG society my school had back then. We mostly played Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (I was an assassin. What more could an 11 year old boy want from life) but some of the older guys would play 40k. That was during the Rogue Trader days, and I absolutely loved the look of the miniatures. I didnt actually get my hands on a starter set until 4 years later. My brothers and I saved our cash together and purchased the 2nd Edition set. And from there we went a bit mad. But it was easier to save cash up when there's 3 of you! We got our hands on WHFB, Blood Bowl, and my favourite... Epic. The sad thing is, we only really played for about a year. Year and a half at the most. Simply because I discovered booze and erm... substances. And girls were starting to look a whole lot more interesting.

And now, all these years later, I find myself addicted to plastic armies yet again.

I do find myself trying not to venture into the GW store. Not only because things are cheaper got online, but also because I feel pretty out of place there. It really is 99% kids from what I've seen. I've no problem with the young guys getting to enjoy their hobby, more power to 'em, I just dont quite feel comfortable being the almost 30 year old man who plays soldiers with the kids in the shopping centre. And some of the guys who work there can be entirely patronising. I'm sure it just comes from normally dealing with teens and what not, but even so, I dont like being spoken to like a 5 year old.

But yeah, all in all I'm glad to be back! And to whatever-notion-you-have-of-an-underworld with it.... Tau are awesome.

I took about 2 years off while I got divorced and dealt with some family stuff. That said, I haven't actually played a single game yet, and I'm in no rush to do so. i enjoy painting, if I never actually play again I may not actually be bothered by it. The tournament howler monkey crowd just make me leave the room and loking through the books, alot of the rules just make me want to bang my head against the wall over how some of the people on the dev studio manage to exist in society.

But I'm enjoying painting and talking back story with some people at the local GW store.

Forgive me Chaplain for I have sinned, it had been five years since I dropped 40k...

It's funny reading through this thread (great idea BTW Matt, and welcome back). This is a pretty forgiving game to return to. The rules may be different, but usually for the better, or at least simpler (which, at my age, still counts as better).

I started with with Rogue Trader, scraping minis together whenever I'd go on holidays to try and complete a marine, eldar and ork army to get people to play in my small town. I finally gave up after 10 years of frustration and moved on to Real Life TM; marriage, kids etc.

I picked up painting again 8 years later when I moved my family to a new city to start a new job. We had no money, didn't know anyone, and with two young 'uns, I desperately needed a hobby to keepmy sanity. Fortunately Victoria had a couple of good hobby shops, and when I saw the new plastic marines for 3rd edition I fell in love. The detail was superior to the first batch of Teflon-coated dark green Rogue Trader era plastic marines, and miracle of miracles, they didn't repel paint! And instead of wielding planks with banana clips and triggers, the new guns looked like a gunsmith had a say in their design! This was real progress. They were so much fun to build and convert, and didn't even require a Dremel.



I painted again for a few years, but then got tired of new rule versions that didn't add anything to the gaming experience, but seemed more tied to profit schedules. So, I quit as 4th was released, and another five-year hiatus followed.

Three months ago I found my minis while looking for a cooler in my garage, and dusted off the cobwebs. I had built a Rhino before I quit, but never got around to painting it. I thought it would be a fun diversion to slap some paint on it before getting back to my other chores. But I realized how much fun it was, and decided it was time to jump back in. I've already played a few small games, and I'm playing in my first small tournament in three weeks. And having fun

I'm constantly amazed at the entitlement and contempt of players who bitch endlessly about The Evil Empire and it's unreasonable pursuit of Capitalism. If you don't like it, move on and support a company you do approve of, or pick a new hobby. If nothing else, taking a break gives you a chance to reflect on what the appeal of the hobby had in the first place. And if it doesn't, and you find you don't miss it, then it's an opportunity to put your energy towards something that gives back what you need. </esoteric dithering>

Ahhh a gathering of those like myself

I remember White Dwarf when it ran all kinds of roleplay and game stuff rather than just being the mouthpiece for GW.

I started playing with the original Rogue Trader, got myself a few Space Marines and played at a local gaming club for about 6 months before friends drifted away from the hobby and so did I.

About 19 years later and here I am collecting CSM, reading loads of articles on here, learning how to paint and model again and enjoying it all immensely. It is expensive, the stores are full of staff who just don't understand people of my age and assume I'm there to buy something for my kids but it's something I'm glad to have got back into again as it gives me a creative outlet, even if I do suck at the actual game.

for me its been a long gap. I was into WH40k when i was a teenager. I stopped playing when i was at uni and didnt restart roleplaying and tabletop gaming until about 4 years ago when some mates started me playing Magic the gathering. I returned to WH40 about a year or so ago when almost everyone was playing in my generic gaming group. For me having an abundance of spare cash has resulting in a very big unpainted and unassembled collection of armies. When i started again the first kit i bought was an ork stompa. I bought this as it looked like fun to build and paint. I do agree about being a 30year old and feeling like i just cant walk into a GW FLGS and play with a bunch of kids. For me i cant imagine a worse game against a load of kids. For example i went along to a learn the game clinic one sunday at my GW store. I ended up with 1 staff and lots bored 10 year old kids who didnt seem that interested in the rules.

/pauses to check his pocket watch and noting the time, passes out the cognac and cigars.

Gentlemen, this thread makes me happy. Let me propose a toast, To the two tome Realm of Chaos, to Specialist Army Lists in White Dwarf, to the Ambull, to a model without red on it and to a page of new miniatures in a white dwarf that each had an amusing name.

Saluté

Still props to the thread starter
So I went into my local GW store for the first time in 2 months and decide to play my High Elves, the army i'm starting and trying to learn. I have my typical chit chat with the employees, base coat a bit and found the one thing that bothers me about the shop now....

The "new" tournment gamers who think they are great. I was asked to help a guy learn warhammer fantasy, playing 1k of my High Elves vs 1k of his Empire. The new tournment gamers were telling me to flank charge with chariots, and destroy his army. I instead focus on teaching wheeling, combat res, hit modifers, and reading the charts. I was happy to meet someone eager to learn the game, and had fun.

After I attempt to talk to one of the guys who was asking me to smash the learning player. I mentioned that there's times to be competitive, and times to teach and educate on the game. He mentioned "i always smash my opponents." I ask how many events has he won: zero, who many has he placed: zero. I then go onto to mention because guys took time to teach me the game, I grew into someone whose won GT's, RTS's, and lost of events, but my pride in the game comes from teaching others, growing the hobby, and meeting people. He seemed lost in this conversation.

I think the main gap is just that. Newer gamers seem to miss this is a hobby, that you can really enjoy with other people, and its so much more than a "video game on a table." Newer gamers, the beardlings, can't tell you what Primarch was strangled by Horus, what a Squat is, or how cool it was when the original plastic "tan beakie" marines his the shelves!

I have periodic breaks from playing WH40k, but I've been building and painting the models pretty much continuously since Rogue Trader appeared. The longest break was during 2nd Edition, when I felt the game took a bad turn. There was a more cartoonish look to a lot of the models (although Jes Goodwin produced some great scuplts), emphasised by Mike McVey's day-glo painting style. And of course they were still experimenting with plastic minis, so you ended up with units of nearly identical models. The Orks went downhill badly, when Kev Adams left and the Perry twins took over. Their Orks were probably the worst minis they ever sculpted. Meanwhile, the 2nd Edition rules were, while beautifully presented, clunky and unbalanced, and I stopped playing.

I had largely stopped buying the models as well by the time 3rd Edition appeared. This version of the game was a bit of a golden age for me, at least for the first few years. While the codexes were brutally sparse on background, the rules were very dynamic, and the overall look was darker and grittier. Brian Nelson's wonderful plastic Orks appeared, redefining one of my favrourite races. And of course we got the multi-part plastic Marines that became the template for the 'plasticisation' of the WH40k range. I discovered tournament play, then very soon after that I discovered power gaming; at about the same time, I discovered Dakka. At that time Dakka was a fascinating mixture of a core group of New-England-based gamers who knew each other through the original store, a wider and diverse group of members from around the world, many of whom were very talented modellers/painters, and a contingent of competitive gamers who established Dakka's reputation as the best source of advice on playing and winning the game. This was a highly combustible combination of different approaches to the hobby, and the arguments were often fierce, but for a time it was a very inspiring place to visit.

For me, things began to tail off as 3rd Edition morphed into 4th, and it seemed as though GW's support for WH40k had waned. A lot of the WH40k models were getting tired, there were still big gaps in the range, and the Orks in particular seemed to have been all but forgotten. I think GW was going through some restructuring over this period, having (I think) over-committed itself to LotR. Interestingly, Dakka seemed to get tired as well, and it felt as though the anti-GW contingent had pretty much taken over. My interest in WH40k waned as well, and I stopped going to WH40k tournaments and started building Warhammer models (although that never went anywhere). But I sensed a new commitment to WH40k in the run-up to the release of 5th Edition, starting with the new Orks. Even WD seemed to improve, having become little more than a catalogue by then. I think that, in terms of the models, it's something of another golden age. Yes, they're quite expensive now, and in some cases it feels as though we're being gouged a bit. But when you look at what's produced now, the quality is generally such that you can generally be sure that you won't be disappointed with what you do buy. And there are models available which a few years ago were all but inconceivable. Not just massive kits like the Baneblade and the Stompa, but smaller, long-awaited sets like the plastic Grots, or plastic components like the Crusader/Redeemer sprue that have replaced clumsy and fragile metal parts. These new kits have certainly spurred my enthusiasm for the hobby, even if I am finding it hard to get any actual games in. I probably have more projects on the go now that ever before.

On the subject of great models, it's good to see Mastiff around again. I agree completely with this comment:

Mastiff wrote:I'm constantly amazed at the entitlement and contempt of players who bitch endlessly about The Evil Empire and it's unreasonable pursuit of Capitalism. If you don't like it, move on and support a company you do approve of, or pick a new hobby. If nothing else, taking a break gives you a chance to reflect on what the appeal of the hobby had in the first place. And if it doesn't, and you find you don't miss it, then it's an opportunity to put your energy towards something that gives back what you need. </esoteric dithering>

It's perplexing that some people seem to take no pleasure in the hobby, and to resent the company that is responsible for it, yet seem to have such a strong need to communicate that lack of enjoyment and resentment ad infinitum. Some Dakka members are still bitching as enthusiastically (and in virtually identical terms) as they were years ago (there is, for instance, a thread on this page full of moaning about GW's supposed pro-Marine bias that looks like it was copied and pasted from 5 years ago). I can only assume that attacking GW is necessary in order to maintain their online identity, in the absence of anything more concrete to offer.

Coming back to the topic, I must admit it's hard now to deal with the sales patter in GW stores. In most cases, the friendly person who comes up to ask me what armies I play wasn't born when Rogue Trader was released, and it's hard to resist the temptation to sabotage their sales pitch by pointing this out. I'm not sure whether the hobby really caters to players in their 40's, but it's reassuring to see that so many of the people who've posted in this thread are also old geezers.

Oh c'mon lads, it's bloody expensive for what it is.
I love the minis and the gaming afternoons with my mates, but the figures are bloody expensive, the character models are even higher in price. They stated the price of tin was the reason for skyrocketing the metal mini prices then have stated in their financial report that they will move the price of the plastics up to match. Their periodical magazine is nothing more than the plant catalogues you get with the tv guide yet they want to charge an arm and a leg for it. GW have ignored armies they have created and left them adrift (dark eldar, WH, DH, Necrons). As to moving on, I've invested many years custom with that company, I have the right to grumble when they raise prices and don't meet my expectations as a consumer.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Oh c'mon lads, it's bloody expensive for what it is.
I love the minis and the gaming afternoons with my mates, but the figures are bloody expensive, the character models are even higher in price. They stated the price of tin was the reason for skyrocketing the metal mini prices then have stated in their financial report that they will move the price of the plastics up to match. Their periodical magazine is nothing more than the plant catalogues you get with the tv guide yet they want to charge an arm and a leg for it. GW have ignored armies they have created and left them adrift (dark eldar, WH, DH, Necrons). As to moving on, I've invested many years custom with that company, I have the right to grumble when they raise prices and don't meet my expectations as a consumer.

You have a point, now a dad and with a mortgage it's difficult to buy stuff what with the hiked up prices!

MeanGreenStompa wrote:/pauses to check his pocket watch and noting the time, passes out the cognac and cigars.

Gentlemen, this thread makes me happy. Let me propose a toast, To the two tome Realm of Chaos, to Specialist Army Lists in White Dwarf, to the Ambull, to a model without red on it and to a page of new miniatures in a white dwarf that each had an amusing name.

Saluté

Slàinte!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Oh c'mon lads, it's bloody expensive for what it is.
I love the minis and the gaming afternoons with my mates, but the figures are bloody expensive, the character models are even higher in price. They stated the price of tin was the reason for skyrocketing the metal mini prices then have stated in their financial report that they will move the price of the plastics up to match. Their periodical magazine is nothing more than the plant catalogues you get with the tv guide yet they want to charge an arm and a leg for it. GW have ignored armies they have created and left them adrift (dark eldar, WH, DH, Necrons). As to moving on, I've invested many years custom with that company, I have the right to grumble when they raise prices and don't meet my expectations as a consumer.

The right to grumble? Dammit man, you have a patriotic DUTY to grumble if you wish to retain your status as a true wargamer.

But my comment is about people who don't seem to find any joy left in the hobby. Those who treat every piece of news with suspicion or contempt, and who need to derail every thread with their bitterness. Repeatedly. I understand venting, I appreciate the right to register a complaint. But some people seem terrified that a thread exists out there that doesn't have their personal mark on it, their battle cry of "repression!". Bloody peasants.

I was taking a gander through Rogue Trader the other day, probably looking some obtuse fact up, like the BS of a Major Hero Halfling or something, and re-read all the Psionic powers that were available. That was 40K. That and 100 inch diameter off-table Frag missle. Good times.

As for the price increases: Boo-urns! I remember when you got 5 metal guys for $8.99 CAD ( $6-7 US at the time). then they went to Pewter or Tin or something with the promise "It'll be cheaper in the longrun." 20 years later, one plastic guy is $5. Yeah, yeah its a business. Yeah, Yeah. Independent Tourneys that allow you to use non-GW figs are the way to go. Like seriously, who can play VC and field 100 GW zombies unless they are a millionaire?

I realise now that I sound like the Crack addict pontificating against my drug while typing on a Crack specialty forum. Sadness.

Seriously, 100 inch diameter frag missiles.

Yeah, the psionics were pretty creative, but just a wee bit broken. In one game, my opponent used Telekinesis to pick up my land raider and drop it on its side from 30m (or whatever the range limit was). It kinda killed the fun for me. Half my army dea on the first turn, and he didn't even need to roll a single die.

Mastiff wrote: In one game, my opponent used Telekinesis to pick up my land raider and drop it on its side from 30m (or whatever the range limit was). It kinda killed the fun for me. Half my army dea on the first turn, and he didn't even need to roll a single die.

It was probably me.

Cheers for the cigars and drink MeanGreen.

It's funny, last couple of days I've been thinking about that feeling I had when I first read the background in Rogue Trader and was just blown away by the utter misery they'd created. Damn good stuff.

fryxharry wrote:
I don't think the cost of materials has anything to do with the price of a miniature, because raw materials are extremely cheap.

I'd like to mention here that previous oil crisis in the '70s was poison to the model kit makers, for example it drove Airfix - who had almost GW like quasi-monopoly in the market - bankrupt. As costs increased they just had to keep hiking prices until their fanbase walked out.

Hilarious part is that when I started modeling in the '80s, I thought that those kits which previous generation had rejected as horribly overpriced, were really cheap.

These days they cost something like 3-4 times what they costed in my youth...

Geez... I can't believe it took me this long to find the old farts thread. Of course you move slower when you get old so that may explain it.

I started wargaming in my college days... 1982 or so. Wargames back then were mostly card counter and map based games like Advanced Squad Leader and the like. Liking the Sci-Fi stuff the games were a little harder to find... the first thing that really grabbed me was a little game that came in a ziploc baggie called OGRE. That grew into GEV and then some others.

About that time I also took a detour into another sort of game and started D&D and that's where my first foray into miniatures occurred. I was hooked, and hooked hard. Soon I had a whole tackle box (and a big one too) full of monsters and characters and since I had the minis I got to DM. That led to Gamma World and more scifi and more miniatures. Then Star Frontiers and my spaceship minis and all that. Then school ended and I had to go work for a living and my collection became stagnant.

Queue life, marriage, kids, etc. Fast forward about 15 years.

It's 2000-ish and I'm in a Hobby Store looking at plastic model airplanes. The store has a big open back room and I hear a lot of ruckus coming out of the back. It's walled off so I can't actually see, so I go to check out what's happening. There's lots of tables with models all over them and people pushing them around, rolling dice and having a good time. I mosey over to see what they are doing. Being a longtime static modeler it's a foreign concept to see models actually being played with. Oh sure, I took my fighter plane models and swooshed them through the air making "Brrrrrrrmmmmmm" noises, but only when I was alone. These guys were doing it out in the open albeit sans faux engine noises. Some of the models looked damn nice. I decided right then and there I'd buy one, just to build. A particularly swoopy looking tank/APC model caught my eye. It was a Tau Devilfish.

After that I started hanging out, eventually ended up with a Nid army, then some Eldar, then Chaos and the Iron Warriors. Been playing ever since with a slight hiatus when I discovered Track Days for the motorcycle. That's fun but damned expensive ($300+ for a set of tires that last a WEEKEND). I've decided 40K is cheaper and lasts longer, plus when I make a mistake I don't take a ride in an Ambulance.

Backfire wrote:
I'd like to mention here that previous oil crisis in the '70s was poison to the model kit makers, for example it drove Airfix - who had almost GW like quasi-monopoly in the market - bankrupt. As costs increased they just had to keep hiking prices until their fanbase walked out...

As someone who remembers that oil crisis, and had started modelling by that time, I do remember some panic about its effect on plastic kits. And I think the price of model kits rose steeply in the late 1970's (although I think that had a lot more to do with inflation and the strength of the Yen - by then I was buying Japanese kits). But Airfix (who were, as Backfire says, in a very similar position to GW at the time) actually reached their peak during the 1970's. Airfix didn't hit the skids until the beginning of the 80's, and it was due to changes in market trends and lack of focus - problems that periodically hit GW. That's not to say that things like oil price hikes don't hit their prices; while the economic experts on the internet would have otherwise, raw material price increases do affect product prices.

Tailgunner wrote:
As someone who remembers that oil crisis, and had started modelling by that time, I do remember some panic about its effect on plastic kits. And I think the price of model kits rose steeply in the late 1970's (although I think that had a lot more to do with inflation and the strength of the Yen - by then I was buying Japanese kits). But Airfix (who were, as Backfire says, in a very similar position to GW at the time) actually reached their peak during the 1970's. Airfix didn't hit the skids until the beginning of the 80's, and it was due to changes in market trends and lack of focus - problems that periodically hit GW. That's not to say that things like oil price hikes don't hit their prices; while the economic experts on the internet would have otherwise, raw material price increases do affect product prices.

I was somewhat imprecise, as there were in fact two oil crisis - Airfix bought it after the second one in 1979-81. Cost of material is of course only one factor, cost of transportation was probably as big or bigger. Inflation was of course quite high in '70s and '80s and undoubtely influenced the perception of price hikes. When I started building model kits, Japanese ones were not terribly popular amongst us as they were viewed as horribly overpriced...a Hasegawa Bf 109 costed twice what the Airfix one.

Airfix kits are made in China now...despite this, their cost is about threefold compared to that 20 years ago.

The worst thing is that Airfix is still selling the same kits that they did 30+ years ago.