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Lurker wrote:

Krootman wrote:
I couldn't have said it better, this is exactly the reason CSMS are still the best basic troop in the game.

Bah! I wouldn't go that far!

Massed csms rape massed orks

so csms>orks

Guard vets are really ace but if they get into combat they are dead, cant say the same about csms.

and well the rest really arn't worth brining up.... Maybe sisters but they can't have 2 melta guns!!!! (10 sisters with a book/flamer/heavy flamer sure is sexy though!)

SO BAM CSMS WIN!

Spellbound wrote:Hey, at least it gives some appearance that they're trying to balance stuff.

No, it gives the appearance that they're incompetent. Identical models in different armies should function identically.

Redbeard wrote:

Spellbound wrote:Hey, at least it gives some appearance that they're trying to balance stuff.

No, it gives the appearance that they're incompetent. Identical models in different armies should function identically.

No this time it actually looks like they tried to keep spacewolves in check. From a common sense standpoint it may seem stupid but from a games design perspective it looks like (as it has been for since the eldar codex) that gw is finally getting their sh*t together (with the exception of marines)

Krootman wrote:

Lurker wrote:As has been said, but I will put it more succinctly.

- 10 GH + 2 Specials + PF = Rhino but little assault power
- 10 GH + 2 Specials + 1WG + PF = No Rhino/Pod
- 9 GH + 1 Special + 1WG + PF = Assault power for loss of free special
- PF + Mark of Wolfen = Illegal
- Mark of Wolfen + anything else = More vulnerable in assault

You can't have your cake and eat it too. The transport dilemma is intentional and does make GH go from a 'WTF!?!' rating to a more realistic 'Good'.

I couldn't have said it better, this is exactly the reason CSMS are still the best basic troop in the game.

Um.... chaos suffers the exact same problem, but each individual model sucks. *note: By comparison to a grey hunter. Basic CSMs are actually quite good.

10 guys, 2 specials, no AC = rhino but little assault power. less than SW might I add [chased down, no counterattack]
10 guys, 2 specials, AC with some weapon = rhino but still little assault power. ACs suck and really don't add much for their cost [45-55 minimum including marine]
9 guys, 1 special, character = rhino but still little assault power, because sorcerors and chaos lords really blow. Undivided lord's decent, but they all have the STAB FACE penalty]

I'll take 2 meltaguns or flamers and a mark of the wulfen please. Good shooting, excellent close combat, for only 170 points.

Yes, I understand BA get screwed. But you can grab a SM codex, call yourselves BA, and still do fine. Yes, having your own codex is nice and it'd be better if it was good. But at least the fallback is still decent. Chaos has no fallback. Imagine burning your BA codex, never being able to use it at all, and the SM codex sucking. That's what we have right now.

The SW codex just brings back all the things chaos lost. It's a welcome addition. Now we can have the characterful, varied, interesting but still viable armies of old. Sure, we can have a 270 point monster character, backed up by tooled out aspiring champions that cost almost 100 points each. It might not be the best thing for a tournament, but it can still be workable and we can have fun doing it. This codex is a godsend, it just brings questions of balance, relative point costs, and wth was GW thinking with the world wolf power!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:
No, it gives the appearance that they're incompetent. Identical models in different armies should function identically.

I'll take my machine spirit, 12-model landraider for CSMs please

10 guys, 2 specials, no AC = rhino but little assault power. less than SW might I add [chased down, no counterattack]
10 guys, 2 specials, AC with some weapon = rhino but still little assault power. ACs suck and really don't add much for their cost [45-55 minimum including marine]
9 guys, 1 special, character = rhino but still little assault power, because sorcerors and chaos lords really blow. Undivided lord's decent, but they all have the STAB FACE penalty]

I dont see how the ac is bad.... hes the same as a vet sge and gives you access to a combi weapon. (which he can take and not lose an atk in cc) Those restrictions you listed are only if you chose to have them. Ill take my 2 flamers ac with combi flamer and p wep in a rhino with an icon anyday of the week.

Sure greyhunters are cheap but are limited. Chaos can be just as cheap as ghs but are not limited, and can get more upgrades if they chose.

I stand by my assumption that Chaos marines are better then grey hunters.

The aspiring champion is bad because he costs 30 points before you even purchase him anything.

A grey hunter costs 18 points for roughly the same ability as an AC.

I honestly see some competitive wolf lists running 5 man grey hunters with MoW, a cheapish Wolf Guard, and one special weapon in razorbacks.

willydstyle wrote:The aspiring champion is bad because he costs 30 points before you even purchase him anything.

A grey hunter costs 18 points for roughly the same ability as an AC.

I honestly see some competitive wolf lists running 5 man grey hunters with MoW, a cheapish Wolf Guard, and one special weapon in razorbacks.

Your forgetting the ld boost and the +1 atk he brings to the table as well.

Grey Hunters are 15 points. I meant Wolf Guard. A wolf guard has almost exactly the same abilities and function as an aspiring champion, yet is 12 points cheaper.

willydstyle wrote:Grey Hunters are 15 points. I meant Wolf Guard. A wolf guard has almost exactly the same abilities and function as an aspiring champion, yet is 12 points cheaper.

but you have to factor into that cost the lost special weapon, which just about evens them out imo.

Not when you consider my post which was talking about 5 grey hunters+ wolf guard in a razorback. No special weapon lost because you're not taking a full capacity unit.

willydstyle wrote:Not when you consider my post which was talking about 5 grey hunters+ wolf guard in a razorback. No special weapon lost because you're not taking a full capacity unit.

I was comparing the 2 units as a whole. I can't comment about your unit idea until I actually see the codex which will be tonight, so ill post my thoughts about it latter.

It really makes me wonder if there is a explanation in the Space Wolf codex on why exactly their drop pods are capacity of 10 and not 12.

There really isnt any logical reason are they using older Drop Pods or something.


I vote this will be errataed. Someone copy and pasted the wrong crap.


edit:

Okay I have not perused the codex but from my understanding you pay for the first special then the second special is free.


I agree though

5 Greyhunters ; Special Weapon + Wolfguard in Razorback is going to be annoying to face. Its cheap too.

I think the Drop Pod and Land Raider transport capacities will not be errata'ed. Even if they didn't mean for it to be, I don't think they'd fix it now, it goes against their usual response - ignore it. It may be a deliberate nerf since GHs get a free second special at 10 men. You can't stick 10 GHs with 2 specials and a plasma pistol, a WG with a combi-weapon, and a IC in a pod or Raider. Instead, you have to give up the second special to add the WG and/or the IC.

Its just arbitrary. It makes no sense fluff wise or otherwise.

You could still take a Redeemer Landraider, which carries 12 models.

At any rate the 2 flamer, AC w/ combi flamer power weapon CSM squad costs 200 points. Grey Hunters with 2 flamers, Mark of the Wulfen, and a rhino costs the same. Guess who's going to get to use their flamers, then charge?

Or drop the mark of the wulfen and take 2 plasmaguns, drive around and gun the CSM down while staying well protected.

Spellbound wrote:Guess who's going to get to use their flamers, then charge?

both?

Hollismason wrote:
Its just arbitrary. It makes no sense fluff wise or otherwise.

It was done because gw rightly thought that grey hunters with 2 power fists/ weps and 2-3 special mounted in a rhino would be a bit overpowered......

Krootman wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Its just arbitrary. It makes no sense fluff wise or otherwise.

It was done because gw rightly thought that grey hunters with 2 power fists/ weps and 2-3 special mounted in a rhino would be a bit overpowered......

It is simply a bad design decision. If they really were concerned that GH Squad w Specials+"Sergeant"+transport would be "too powerfull", they should have adjusted the point costs. We really ( seriously! ) do NOT need another Codex with errant wargear!

A-P wrote:

Krootman wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Its just arbitrary. It makes no sense fluff wise or otherwise.

It was done because gw rightly thought that grey hunters with 2 power fists/ weps and 2-3 special mounted in a rhino would be a bit overpowered......

It is simply a bad design decision. If they really were concerned that GH Squad w Specials+"Sergeant"+transport would be "too powerfull", they should have adjusted the point costs. We really ( seriously! ) do NOT need another Codex with errant wargear!

Even if they raised the points to bring it in line with csms it would have still be under coasted for what it can do. This was the right way to do it, they would have had to make wolf guard cost so much that they would be unplayable. I would much rather have different wargear if it helps balance armies.

The arbitrary, anti-fluff decision was making the SM pods hold 12 guys when the thing clearly only has seats for 10 people.

I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Grey Hunters are worse than Tactical Marines.

Fetterkey wrote:I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Grey Hunters are worse than Tactical Marines.

Because yet again a other Chaos player isn't on the top of the cheese board anymore.

A Chaos unit has several benefits over a Grey Hunter one. For example, it can take a Sergeant without using an Elites slot. It can also take a Mark, and can have both a Sergeant and two special weapons. That's without even getting into Plague Marines and the other "special troops" that Chaos can field.

Fetterkey wrote:A Chaos unit has several benefits over a Grey Hunter one. For example, it can take a Sergeant without using an Elites slot. It can also take a Mark, and can have both a Sergeant and two special weapons. That's without even getting into Plague Marines and the other "special troops" that Chaos can field.

Hey, so can Space Wolves!

Logan Grimnar = an extra troops slot provides sergeants to all your squads.

Sergeant and 2 special weapons.... so can grey hunters, you realize. You can have 2 special weapons, 1 guy with d6+1 rending attacks, and another guy with 2(3, counterattack) power weapon attacks.

Marks = IOCG, or just choose the appropriate cult squad instead.

Cult squad = I'm going to have so many more grey hunters than you, armed with FNP-ignoring weapons, that you'll just be bogged down by bodies if nothing else. Or heck, I'll just add a Lone wolf here or there, who rerolls his misses against your T5 guys and has wound-rerolling wolf claws!

I love lone wolves Not overpowered, just.... design-a-character, and loses you no kill points.

I don't think taking a 250+ point character in order to allow your Sergeants to use Troops slots is exactly ideal. Further, the Wulfen option seems unimpressive, and giving a special melee weapon to a model with 1 attack on profile also doesn't wow me. These weapons are barely worth their points on models with two attacks, after all!

Lone Wolves seem great in KP scenarios. Sadly, that means they are great only 1/3 of the time.

They are still a contesting unit that the opponent has to deal with.

My 7 Cents.

Dealing with a lone Marine is trivial.

But you still have to unless you give him free reign.
He's still taking some sort of fire away from the other squishies...the kind that score maybe.

/shrug.

Just looking at it at face value.
In addition you have to cause enough wounds to down him, I belive he has EW.

My 7 Cents.

I dont get why youd complain chaos marines get HUGE bonuses over wolves in other areas:

They have cheap cheap terminators that can all take combiweapons, a 2+/4++, chainfists, heavy flamers, etc. Mind you these upgrades cost points but you can get a really nastily effective CSM termy squad for under 200 points. can wolves do that? Can anyone else do that?

Chaos marines get more special weapons in their list than anyone else other than guard. All their troops can get two, their elites (chosen) get 5, their heavy support get 4, and their fast attack can get 3 I think (raptors used to?)

Chaos marines have troops that have a 3+ and fnp, like holy crap really? And can get 2 special weapons+pfist and not need 10 models to do it?

Lash+bash still works on grey hunters or any footslogger marine army

Defilers will ruin a grey hunter squad unless they pop it with melta fire, theres no way I'd rely on 1 pfist attack vs it.

I think when wolves fight CSM, optimal on optimal builds, CSM can still crush the puppies. Time will tell but thats my prediction.


It wont matter anyway guard is the master race of 5th ed!!!!!!

thanatos67 wrote:I dont get why youd complain chaos marines get HUGE bonuses over wolves in other areas:

They have cheap cheap terminators that can all take combiweapons, a 2+/4++, chainfists, heavy flamers, etc. Mind you these upgrades cost points but you can get a really nastily effective CSM termy squad for under 200 points. can wolves do that? Can anyone else do that?

Chaos marines get more special weapons in their list than anyone else other than guard. All their troops can get two, their elites (chosen) get 5, their heavy support get 4, and their fast attack can get 3 I think (raptors used to?)

Chaos marines have troops that have a 3+ and fnp, like holy crap really? And can get 2 special weapons+pfist and not need 10 models to do it?

Lash+bash still works on grey hunters or any footslogger marine army

Defilers will ruin a grey hunter squad unless they pop it with melta fire, theres no way I'd rely on 1 pfist attack vs it.

I think when wolves fight CSM, optimal on optimal builds, CSM can still crush the puppies. Time will tell but thats my prediction.


It wont matter anyway guard is the master race of 5th ed!!!!!!

Wow justin you kinda sounded like a nub for a 2nd, talking about defliers and chaos terms...who takes them lawl! but you saved yourself with your final statement.

Chem channons still kill them all the same!