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Krootman said it best and first, so I'll just give him a thumbs up.

Question for CatPeeler though: I take it Ld8 is good enough for making most of the Grey Hunter's Counter-Attack leadership rolls. What happens when they fail?

This post made me laugh. Like, seriously laugh.

thanatos67 wrote:I dont get why youd complain chaos marines get HUGE bonuses over wolves in other areas:

They have cheap cheap terminators that can all take combiweapons, a 2+/4++, chainfists, heavy flamers, etc. Mind you these upgrades cost points but you can get a really nastily effective CSM termy squad for under 200 points. can wolves do that? Can anyone else do that?

Cheap Cheap terminators that can all take combi-weapons? How....how many points, exactly?

Let's go back in time a bit. Long ago, you could take chaos chosen terminators. They ended up costing around 30 points. Then you could buy them all a veteran skill, like I dunno, counterattack, for 3 points. And then combi-weapons for 5!

Now, chaos termies cost 30, and still get the 5 point combi weapons. Score! Wolf Guard terminators? .....33, with counter-attack. And....5 point combi-weapons? Holy crap! 2+ 4++ chainfists eh? Well it just so happens wolf guard terminators can take chainfist/storm shield for 2+/3++ chainfists! Wow! And can wolves get their squad for under 200 points? Why, you betcha! They can just take 3 or 4 if they want, just like CSM!

thanatos67 wrote:
Chaos marines get more special weapons in their list than anyone else other than guard. All their troops can get two, their elites (chosen) get 5, their heavy support get 4, and their fast attack can get 3 I think (raptors used to?)

Sorry, that was something they took away from raptors. Along with veteran skills [like, you know, counter-attack], hit and run, and daemonic visage. All their troops can get 2 special weapons - so can wolves! Their elites get 5? Ok fine. But their elites pay even more points for, meh, a leadership boost and infiltrate really. I'll give you the chosen. Heavy support get 4, good good. What good does all this do when the wolves are in combat with you?

But I'll concede this one. While the troops don't have anymore than the wolves do, chaos can 1-up them in overpriced elites slots, and non-scoring heavy support. More special weapons on basic guys, that's what chaos is known for now.

thanatos67 wrote:
Chaos marines have troops that have a 3+ and fnp, like holy crap really? And can get 2 special weapons+pfist and not need 10 models to do it?

Sure they can! And those squads are incredibly tiny and are praying the cheap space wolf units aren't carrying 2 plasmaguns themselves. Yeah, the wolves need 10 models to do it.....OK! I'll take AS MANY of those incredibly efficient models as I POSSIBLY can, and just spend the points I save elsewhere. 5 PM with champion, 2 plasma, powerfist is what? 185 points? 10 grey hunters with 2 plasma is 160, with a mark of the wulfen is 175. 10 points more, why don't I take an icon of the wolf, so if I ever go into close combat I've got good insurance that things won't go all too badly for me? I don't even need those other 7 models in the unit for anything other than ablative wounds. My plasma will kill your PM just as easily as you kill grey hunters, but I've got more. Even without the champion, 5 PM with 2 plasma is 145 points. Ridiculous.

thanatos67 wrote:
Lash+bash still works on grey hunters or any footslogger marine army

Ehhhhhh maybe. You forget they have a 4+ cancel psychic power rune weapon. Several actually. Or the special character that's 3+ cancel psychic power. Is there a rule in the rune weapon entry that says they don't stack? Because if there isn't, like there is for psychic hood, they'll get multiple rolls to cancel. And if you get through, the unit in question might have a character with a wolf tail talisman in there, which also resists psychic power effects on a 5+. They've got saves on saves against psychic powers.

thanatos67 wrote:
Defilers will ruin a grey hunter squad unless they pop it with melta fire, theres no way I'd rely on 1 pfist attack vs it.

Duh. Isn't that just like EVERY marine army? Yes, the defiler has a scary anti-marine gun and is fairly safe in close combat versus a squad of infantry. Regular CSM have the same problem. Plaguemarines have the same problem, but have the added advantage of more points for no more survivability against it. They'll depend on killing it before it gets into cc, lucky krak grenades, or their Mark of the Wulfen guy getting lucky on rending [which can happen]. Plus I fail to see why a guy with 1 pfist attack [2 on the first round of combat usually] is useless, but a champion with 2 is good insurance that people pay 40 points for "just in case". I'd leave them both at home and depend on shooting it down.

thanatos67 wrote:
I think when wolves fight CSM, optimal on optimal builds, CSM can still crush the puppies. Time will tell but thats my prediction.

Yes. Optimal on Optimal, CSM CAN crush wolves.


You know what? I bet they'll do fine. Wolves require a small amount of metagame changing for tyranids and orks and such, but otherwise are not game-breaking at all. I do not think the codex is BROKEN. I do not think the codex is unbeatable.

I think the codex has basic troops that are a STEAL compared to CSM, and that the book has way way way WAY more fluff, options, and characterful army design opportunities than the CSM codex. It has almost everything the old chaos codex lost in the transition to what we have now. Counter-attacking troops. Special cultists/scouts. Fluffy assault squads. Basic squads that really act like hardcore veterans. Characters with REAL customizability, not just what flavor of daemon weapon do you have. Cool, effective special characters. Independent characters you can really go to town with converting and gearing up with a variety of configs and have fun doing it.

The Wolf codex is just MORE FUN than the CSM codex, and still viable. It's not broken. It's chaos, after being FIXED.

Spellbound wrote:It's chaos, after being FIXED.

......wait, that isn't a pun is it?

On topic though, I agree. The wolves can be beat, the lack of teleports means that they can get outmaneuvered a little bit by more mechanized forces. They rely on crushing you in the assault....something they are VERY GOOD AT, but not AS GOOD as say, 20 storm boyz

Grey Hunters really aren't all that good. I prefer Tactical Marines, and am seriously considering not changing my army for that reason.

Tactical marines are nice. Combat squad option and Combat tactics are great abilities. When 30 shoota boyz kill 3 of my guys, I'd much rather fall back out of assault range and come back at them with a flamer than say "I totally count as charging when you come to bash my face in!"

Fetterkey wrote:Grey Hunters really aren't all that good. I prefer Tactical Marines, and am seriously considering not changing my army for that reason.

You say this as though changing your army is the default option...

My army is an Iron Hands successor that has some serious organizational improvements under Codex: Space Wolves, such as a Dreadnought HQ. However, the Grey Hunters burden may be too much to bear.

Yes, I can see how the burden of one of the most points-efficient troops ever could be too much to bear.

I think that in relation to particular armies. People will always cry and bicker... The book did receive a lot of love from GW... for sure. But as always its the helmsman that leads the army, not the list itself.

I rather like the way things differ between Space Marines, Space Wolves, and Chaos Space Marines.

Tactical Space Marines: Need 10 for special weapon and Heavy Weapon, though they're either inexpensive or free. You automatically pay for a Sergeant with a Veteran profile. You get Rhinos with a capacity of 12 - I guess if you take out the Chainsword racks you can only fit 10 in there! Also the option of Razorbacks and Drop Pods with a capacity of 12. Tactical Marines And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics, and Ld9 from the Sergeant, who also carries the squad's special close combat weapons.

Chaos Space Marines: Only need 5 for a special weapon, but 10 for either an additional special weapon or a Heavy Weapon, and pay retail for all of them. They come with close combat weapons and have the option of upgrading one to an Aspiring Champion for special close combat weapons and Ld10, but Ld9 otherwise. You also have the option of Icons, and 10 capacity Rhino with the option of a Havoc Launcher, Combi-Weapons, and Daemonic Possession.

Grey Hunters: Only need 5 for a discount special weapon, but need 10 for a free special weapon. However, the options for Rhinos and Drop Pods have capacity limits of 10, so you can't add a Wolfguard leader if you want the free special weapon. A Wolfguard is incredibly expensive. Grey Hunters get Acute Senses, Counter-Attack, And They Shall Know No Fear. Grey Hunters all have close combat weapons like Chaos Space Marines. That's not just close combat capacity, but also a limit to Ld8, which makes Counter-Attack less reliable. They have special close combat weapons among their squad, but less efficacy in using them as a result.

It's like they're all significantly different...

I like it: no more Blue Marines and Grey Marines and Spiky Marines but Space Marines and Space Wolves and Chaos Space Marines.

Nurglitch, that's a quite good analysis.
At least, GW made some thoughts about outfitting Grey Hunters.
One of their downsides is surely how expensive Wolfguard Marines are.

Yes, I can clearly see the unique and different advantages of the regular marines, the space wolves......

....did you expect me to say CSM? They need 10 to pay more points for the same combat ability as the others, with less tactical options. Ld 10 is fine and dandy but one failed check [when you're losing combat, this helps very little compared to something like ATSKNF] and you're gone. Chased down, or below half and unable to regroup. We get marks - MORE points for upgrades that make us less points-efficient. It's been discussed at length that cult troops are better than CSM with icons. Army-specific, both marines and wolves have options and chances to make their squads stubborn or fearless. Chaos does not, other than one single special character that, magic word - costs points above and beyond the crappy character in order to pay for these upgrades.

CSM suffer the same problem they do in fantasy - they pay high costs for extra stat boosts, while other armies pay less for lower stats, but get special rules. Being S7 T5 with 5 attacks and I8 with WS8 and a 0+ armor save doesn't help in WHFB when some S3, I3 scrub with re-rolling wounds, killing blow, and Always Strikes First comes along and makes a fool out of you for 1/3 your cost. SW may have lower leadership, and SM may not be able to be T5, but they can give themselves offensive punch in cc [more effective against a squad of charging orks than T5, in the first round of combat], or prevent the assault altogether, while the premium-costed T5 chaos boys take it on the chin.

Chaos Space Marines not only get the opportunity to become Fearless, they get a Strength bonus into the bargain. The extra Leadership, in the meantime, makes them more resistant to pinning. Icons not only give the squad a bonus, they act as teleport homers.

But let's consider a Mob of 30 Orks attacking a squad of 10 Grey Hunter or Tactical Marines or Chaos Space Marines.

In each case, the Marines attack first. Suppose the Grey Hunters get to Counter-Attack. That's 3 attacks each for 30 attacks, 15 hits, 8 wounds, 1 save, 7 dead Orks. If the Grey Hunters don't get the Counter-Attack, despite it being likely, then that's 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 save, 4 dead Orks.

Orks attacking back in the first case get, if they're Shoota Boyz, 3 attacks each, for 69 attacks, 35 hits, 18 wounds, 12 saves, 6 dead Grey Hunters. In the second case, on the charge the Orks get 78 attacks, 39 hits, 20 wounds, 13 saves, 7 dead Grey Hunters. That's either 7:6 or 4:7. Better hope those Grey Hunters get lucky eh?

Against Tactical Marines it gets worse. 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds, 0 saves, 3 dead Orks. 27 Orks attack with 81 attacks, 41 hits, 21 wounds, 14 saves, 7 dead Tactical Marines. 3:7 in favour of the Orks.

Against Chaos Space Marines (maybe with the Icon of Slaanesh or the Icon of Tzeentch) they'd have 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 save, 4 dead Orks. 26 Orks attack with 78 attacks, 39 hit, 20 wound, 13 saves, 7 dead Chaos Space Marines. 4:7.

Against Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Khorne, where there's no worries about it flaking out on you, you'd see 30 attacks, 15 hits, 8 wounds, 1 save, 7 dead Orks. Just as if the Grey Hunters had passed their Leadership test for Counter-Attack, except there's no Leadership test and the Chaos Space Marines charge like Blood Claws, except they have WS4.

Against Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Nurgle, you'd see 26 Orks attack with 78 attacks, 39 hit, 13 wound, 9 saves, 4 dead Chaos Space Marines. 4:4.

So Chaos Space Marines with the Icon of Khorne pay the premium and run the risk of losing the Icon, but they'll reliably beat the Orks into bean-paste.

If Grey Hunters charge the same unit of Orks, they'll get the same result as if they charge, 7 dead Orks on average, but the Orks will get 46 attacks, 23 hit, 8 wound, 5 save, and 3 dead Grey Hunters. 7:3 improves things in favour of charging, if only to deprive the Orks of their Furious Charge strength bonus and bonus charging attacks.

If the Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Khorne charge the Orks, they'll get 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 2 saves, for 8 dead Orks. Orks get 44 attacks, 22 hits, 7 wounds, 5 saves, and two dead Chaos Space Marines. That's 8:2. Again, advantage goes to the guys who paid the premium to the Chaos God of War.

Speaking of paying a premium, what would Berzerkers do?

Getting charged they'd go first, and have 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 2 saves, and 8 dead Orks. The Orks would get 66 attacks, 33 hits, 17 wounds, 11 saves, and 6 dead Berzerkers. 8:6 ain't bad.

In charging they'd have 40 attacks, 27 hits, 18 wounds, 3 saves, 15 dead Orks. The surviving 15 Orks would get 30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds, 3 saves, and 2 dead Berzerkers. That's 13:2

Tactical Marines
4:7, 3:7

Grey Hunters Charging/Counter-Attacking and just Receiving
7:6, 7:6 or 4:7

Chaos Space Marines
7:6, 4:7

Chaos Space Marines w/Icon Of Khorne
8:2, 7:6

Chaos Space Marines w/Icon of Nurgle
7:3, 4:4

Berzerkers
13:2, 8:6

Looking at this, Grey Hunters aren't as good as a unit of Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Khorne, or anywhere near as good as Berzerkers.

Against Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Khorne:

30 attacks, 15 hits, 8 wounds, 5 saves, 3 dead Chaos Space Marines. Or 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3 saves, 2 dead Chaos Space Marines.

Chaos Space Marines would get 30 attacks, 15 hits, 8 wounds, 5 saves, 3 dead Grey Hunters. So the Grey Hunters will tie if they pass a Ld8 test for Counter-Attack.

Berzerkers will get 40 attacks, 27 hits, 18 wounds, 12 saves, 6 wounds, at I5. So 4 Grey Hunters will attack back, either at 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves, for 1 dead Berzerker, or 8 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save, 1 dead Berzerker. So either was it's 6:1, with the Grey Hunters probably not passing on Ld3 and taking No Retreat! saves losing 3 more on average.

Really, paying the premium so you can wipe out Grey Hunter squads with near-impunity really makes Berzerkers worth it. The best part? They come to you...

While a straight unit-to-unit comparison can be helpful, you also can't discount differences in cost.

For every three Icons of Khorne in the army, you can have another squad of 5 grey hunters.

In a "typical" chaos squad of 10 marines, two melta guns, icon of khorne, and powerfist champion (something I typically run in my Black Legion army), you're looking at 240 points, not counting the cost of the rhino (that they've gotta have).

In my experience, though, running max-size troops units that simply don't do as much damage point-for-point as other FoC slots isn't very efficient, but we'll continue to discuss max-size units (well, for CSM that's 20, but nobody builds bigger than a rhino).

For your 10 grey hunters with two melta guns, and mark of the wulfen, you're looking at 170 points, for roughly the same battlefield effectiveness, only you're never, ever going to lose counter attack through wound allocation.

I'd say a 70 point discount is considerable. It means that you can almost have a 3:2 ratio of grey hunters vs. khorne marked marines. In fact: that's huge.

So yes, while chaos space marines have upgrades available to make their unit better than a grey hunters unit, it does not make the army better because you have to pay a significant cost to do so.

Also, in the way I've currently (successfully, I might add) been running min-size troops for better army efficiency, grey hunters come out on top.

I think that 5 grey hunters w/ 1 special, mark of the wulfen, attached to a wolf guard in a razorback is a more effective troops unit than what I've been doing with my chaos lately: 5 CSM 1 melta gun in a havoc launcher rhino.

@Nurglitch:
Wait what?
Just a small note:
Rhino's don't have a 12 man capacity in any codex so far.

Pods and Land Raiders have that 12 man capacity, or more in the case of the Crusader, but not the Rhino.

Razorbacks can only fit half a dozen.

Or were you just making a joke about it?

My 7 Cents.

willydstyle wrote:I think that 5 grey hunters w/ 1 special, mark of the wulfen, attached to a wolf guard in a razorback is a more effective troops unit than what I've been doing with my chaos lately: 5 CSM 1 melta gun in a havoc launcher rhino.

The issue is that you lose an Elite slot for doing this. Elite slots are very, very precious.

Sanctjud:

I made a mistake: got them mixed up with Drop Pods.

Fetterkey wrote:

willydstyle wrote:I think that 5 grey hunters w/ 1 special, mark of the wulfen, attached to a wolf guard in a razorback is a more effective troops unit than what I've been doing with my chaos lately: 5 CSM 1 melta gun in a havoc launcher rhino.

The issue is that you lose an Elite slot for doing this. Elite slots are very, very precious.

No you don't, you just have to take one model from an elite slot that has up to 10 models. You could easily do 5 wolf guard terminators, with 3 or 4 more to be unit champions, and there would be no kill point penalty, as the wolf guard attached to another unit count as an upgrade character in all respects.

The Wolfguard work like Warlocks, right?

I dont think comparing unit to unit directly can be considered fair. We should look at the armies as a whole and their synergy.

Well, vaguely like Warlocks. Only insofar as they can be a unit on their own, OR sargeants.

You take a unit of Wolfguard. This unit is where you take models from to have sargeants in your squads. This squad takes up an elite slot.

So, for example, you could take a unit of 10 WG. Of these WG, 4 become upgrade characters for other units. The last 6 WG are their own unit and run around wreckin stuff.

So...not like Warlocks? That's interesting. It seems to imply that Assault-Cannon toting Wolfguard can join units...

Something that occurred to me is that the Wolfguard/extra Melta Gun decision is irrelevant if you stick them in a Crusader or Redeemer.

Yeah, you can send out WG with other weapons to join other squads, not just 'vanilla' WG. See Gwar's list in the army forum where his Cyclone termi becomes a Long Fang sarge.

Orkestra:

So how would you characterize Wolfguard with Heavy Weapons? Mint? Chocolate? Perhaps Blue-berry?

Really, I'd say it depends on the weapon options. I don't have enough of an experience with the codex to have memorized all of their options, but I think that I used the wrong metaphor. Instead of flavours of ice cream I'll go with types of food.

Frostblade: Obviously ice cream
Wolf Claw: shish kebabs
Power Fist: Dessert (your choice, as long as it's after the 'main course')
Missile Launcher: Pizza pie (plates. I'm hil-freaking-arious)
Assault Cannon: Double Cheeseburger with ren- I mean bacon.
Power Weapon: White Rice.

I suppose, then, that - to extend the metaphor, that Terminator Armour is equivalent to upsizing your order (hence why the terminator armoured options are more of a 'full meal' thing) and the Pistol you choose (plasma or Bolt) is whether you're drinking wine or beer with your meal. (obviously 'gets hot' would be your wine not matching the meal (like chardonnay with your burger. *shudder*)

And I don't even have anything on topic to say to redeem myself. Oh well, it happens.

Spellbound wrote:Man, when CSM came out I thought I had it all. Not in the codex, mind you - heck no. But the basic CSM. 15 points for Ld 9 [nice, since we can be run down and when reduced below half will keep running], frag and krak [used to have to buy those!], bolter, bp, AND ccw for great versatility! I mean a 10-man squad with 2 meltaguns cost me 170 points, and every model was versatile in weapon options and capabilities. I'd just have to pay 15 points if I wanted 1 more leadership and 1 attack, and if I wanted a power weapon, I'd have to pay 15 more. No problem. I used to be able to get a S5 power weapon for that many points, but hey it's not so bad.

Then I saw this new SW codex, and I looked at the grey hunters. Let's take a look at them.

Looks like they've gone the route of 5th and come with frag and krak. Mmk. Leadership 8, same as SM have always been, but hey they have ATSKNF, so they can never be run down and one last guy can still come take an objective if you leave him be. That's pretty darn good!

But what's this? They've all got acute senses.....seemingly for free, because they've already got everything CSM have but still cost 15 points! And....what the....Counterattack? Everyone has counterattack too? For.....for free? Well at least they still have to pay the same cost for special weapons. A flamer is still 5....no wait it's free. Heck all the weapons seem to be 5 points cheaper than for CSM, that's odd. Ah, but at least they have the same restrictions CSM have, in that you need 10 to get the second special weapon, which you then have to pay for, equal to the cost you paid for the fir.....wait....no, they get it for free? Someone just.... trades a bolter, and gets any assault weapon for free?

So now.... where chaos paid 170 points for 10 guys with 2 meltas, these grey hunters now pay 155, and in addition get ATSKNF, Acute senses, and counterattack. Holy crap. Well, at least if they want someone kitted for close combat, they're going to have to pay 15 points for that extra attack, and then pay more to give them decent weapons. .....Wait what this wulfen thing? 15 points gets.... oh, not 1 more, but at least 1 more, replacing their attacks with d6+1 and giving them rending?


Let's check out the breakdown.

15 points gets either marine w/ Ld 9 and bp/ccw/bolter, or the same points gets the same guy, Ld 8 but ATSKNF, acute senses AND counterattack.

10 points gets a meltagun, 10 more gets a second - compared to 5, then 0?

And 30 points buys an extra attack and ld [can still get run down though] with a power weapon - or 15 for LOTS of extra attacks and rending, so now you can take down anything but a landraider without reducing your initiative, if lucky.


WOW. What a unit. I'd spam the HELL out of grey hunters for that kind of cheap, incredible versatility and reliability. Rapid-fire some orks, then count as charging when they come at me, striking first? Heck yeah!

Yeah, maybe I will start doing counts-as SW with my chaos from now on. At least now I can build a customized character with a backstory and character behind his equipment loadout.

Whats this another CSM player complaining surely not......

Get over it please for one thing BE HAPPY

It will mean when Chaos and all the other marines get done weapons will be cheaper and GW are obviously thinking about a lot more specials rules that affect armies ie counter attack space wolves ALWAYS charge in combat even if they are outnumbered or about to be overwhelmed. It's the armies fluff.

When chaos comes out again you may find that your weapons are cheaper and you have some new special rules

and yet i bet half of you will complain as usual....

Sorry if i offend you Chaos players out there but God all i ever see you do is rant which makes me want to rant speaking of this RANT OFF you may now flame my post

Fetterkey wrote:Grey Hunters really aren't all that good. I prefer Tactical Marines, and am seriously considering not changing my army for that reason.

^ This is epic fail.

I think Stelek from YTTH sums Grey Hunters up better than I can.

"Grey Hunters: The internet is all a gaga over these guys. What the %*$& for? So you pay 15 points for a Marine, and get the following:

Chaos Magic Sack (Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW).
Two specials when upgraded to 10 guys (which means nobody else can ride in your drop pod, dumb$*#).

You also get LD8. Hey, that means people can shoot you and you run like wimps. I sure hope you have your YTTH certified mech’d up card.

You also get no heavy weapon.

No combat tactics.

Wait, so I can spend 155 points + 35 points for a 10 man squad with LD8, that can drop in front of a enemy mech vehicle and probably kill it—then die horribly, or get shot away, or get assaulted by real assault troops (which you %*$&ing aren’t).

Tactical use: How about I pay 105 points for a meltagun guy in a 5 man squad mounted in a Rhino, and call it good? Or hell, a flamer and stop pretending like I’m stupid and going to throw my precious troops away killing your tanks. I’m not Chaos, why should I play like Chaos? Oh right, because I’m stupid.

"
And lets see if Luna can sum it all up....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:I dont think comparing unit to unit directly can be considered fair. We should look at the armies as a whole and their synergy.

AND THERE IT IS!

EzeKK:

Are you disagreeing with Fetterkey or agreeing with him? Because the analysis you present seems to agree with his assessment.

Ripister wrote:
Whats this another CSM player complaining surely not......

Get over it please for one thing BE HAPPY

It will mean when Chaos and all the other marines get done weapons will be cheaper and GW are obviously thinking about a lot more specials rules that affect armies ie counter attack space wolves ALWAYS charge in combat even if they are outnumbered or about to be overwhelmed. It's the armies fluff.

When chaos comes out again you may find that your weapons are cheaper and you have some new special rules

and yet i bet half of you will complain as usual....

Sorry if i offend you Chaos players out there but God all i ever see you do is rant which makes me want to rant speaking of this RANT OFF you may now flame my post

You know what, I'm starting to get a little bit vexed by you and your friends and all their Chaos hate. If you weren't so wrapped up in your own updated codex and MC spamming Tyranid lists you might take the time to start using your brain and look at our codex. Chaos has been the poor cousin to marines for a helluva long time now and some of us are more than a little annoyed at the fact that not only are we the weakest MEQ codex out, but all of the idiots like you take special time out of your day to deliberately attack us and our codex. We are totally justified in our anger and perhaps if you were in our position of having the best damned codex out ripped off you like us you would understand. We are now at the back of the list and will spend the next 5 years waithing for a new codex that will hopefully clear up all the glaring inconsistencies and lack of any fluff in our armies. I started playing Chaos for the fluff, as did many other people and we've even had any sense of coherency with that taken off us. So next time you come onto dakka for no reason other than to flame every Chaos player out, do the world a favour and hold your tongue.
I can't wait to here all you Nid players complain when your new codex comes out.....Wait that's right you won't 'cos GW is into breaking codexes now not nerfing them like they were with us.

The Chaos Codex is not the "weakest MEQ codex out." That (dis)honor belongs to the Dark Angels.