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Man, when CSM came out I thought I had it all. Not in the codex, mind you - heck no. But the basic CSM. 15 points for Ld 9 [nice, since we can be run down and when reduced below half will keep running], frag and krak [used to have to buy those!], bolter, bp, AND ccw for great versatility! I mean a 10-man squad with 2 meltaguns cost me 170 points, and every model was versatile in weapon options and capabilities. I'd just have to pay 15 points if I wanted 1 more leadership and 1 attack, and if I wanted a power weapon, I'd have to pay 15 more. No problem. I used to be able to get a S5 power weapon for that many points, but hey it's not so bad.

Then I saw this new SW codex, and I looked at the grey hunters. Let's take a look at them.

Looks like they've gone the route of 5th and come with frag and krak. Mmk. Leadership 8, same as SM have always been, but hey they have ATSKNF, so they can never be run down and one last guy can still come take an objective if you leave him be. That's pretty darn good!

But what's this? They've all got acute senses.....seemingly for free, because they've already got everything CSM have but still cost 15 points! And....what the....Counterattack? Everyone has counterattack too? For.....for free? Well at least they still have to pay the same cost for special weapons. A flamer is still 5....no wait it's free. Heck all the weapons seem to be 5 points cheaper than for CSM, that's odd. Ah, but at least they have the same restrictions CSM have, in that you need 10 to get the second special weapon, which you then have to pay for, equal to the cost you paid for the fir.....wait....no, they get it for free? Someone just.... trades a bolter, and gets any assault weapon for free?

So now.... where chaos paid 170 points for 10 guys with 2 meltas, these grey hunters now pay 155, and in addition get ATSKNF, Acute senses, and counterattack. Holy crap. Well, at least if they want someone kitted for close combat, they're going to have to pay 15 points for that extra attack, and then pay more to give them decent weapons. .....Wait what this wulfen thing? 15 points gets.... oh, not 1 more, but at least 1 more, replacing their attacks with d6+1 and giving them rending?


Let's check out the breakdown.

15 points gets either marine w/ Ld 9 and bp/ccw/bolter, or the same points gets the same guy, Ld 8 but ATSKNF, acute senses AND counterattack.

10 points gets a meltagun, 10 more gets a second - compared to 5, then 0?

And 30 points buys an extra attack and ld [can still get run down though] with a power weapon - or 15 for LOTS of extra attacks and rending, so now you can take down anything but a landraider without reducing your initiative, if lucky.


WOW. What a unit. I'd spam the HELL out of grey hunters for that kind of cheap, incredible versatility and reliability. Rapid-fire some orks, then count as charging when they come at me, striking first? Heck yeah!

Yeah, maybe I will start doing counts-as SW with my chaos from now on. At least now I can build a customized character with a backstory and character behind his equipment loadout.

Well, I'd love to jump onto the band wagon too, but how is this different than every new codex coming out.

We don't have enough exp. with it, but the 'codex creep' seems to be always the case.

I guess what I'm saying is..."What's New?"

Go with Cult troops like plague marines and be happy.

Or fall into GW's trap and go SW:codex count as CSM.........../shrug.

My 7 Cents.

Well, as is often said, it's wrong to compare two units (no matter that they're very similar) without looking at the context of the army.

I mean, Space Wolves are supposed to be a low model count army of expensive specialists. That's why they get more cool things and cost fewer points.

Wait... what?

When C:SM came out, it was fairly balanced. They got some stuff for free, but HAD to take 10 men to get it. And they actually cost a bit more than 15 points, which just pays for the seemingly free veteran sergeant. But they had bolter and pistol, lacking the ccw, so chaos had an advantage there. It was pretty much balanced.

This, though....

I don't want to complain about Grey Hunters and their relatively cheap equipment and upgrades.
This is what to expect when a new codex comes out.

Orkestra wrote:Well, as is often said, it's wrong to compare two units (no matter that they're very similar) without looking at the context of the army.

I mean, Space Wolves are supposed to be a low model count army of expensive specialists. That's why they get more cool things and cost fewer points.

Wait... what?

With their troops.

Grey Hunters are awesomesqauce, dirt cheap and a bargain no argument there.

But the rest of the list contains such goodies as 60pt terminators, 270pt spec chars you need to field in order to unlock the army you would like to, etc.

The core troops are so cheap because most of what the wolf player wants to use is so awesome but so expensive.

(although why long fangs went down in pts is a bit of a mystery to me)

Trust me, wolf forces will be small and outnumbered even with the cheap ass hunters.

And the free special weapon is irrelevant since most people will want to add a WG and still fit in a pod or rhino.

And acute senses is pretty much useless btw.

You are forgetting a few things here....

CSMS get icons which make them more customizable (most take icon of glory)

Wolf guard battle leaders have to join the squad if you want champion level cc which means you CANNOT take a special weapon and mount up in a rhino... pretty big deal imo.

Chaos can get a champ and 3 (2+ combi) special weapons..... grey hunters can get 1 and a wolf guard leader, or 1 and a combi, or 2 and a 3 atk p wep or a 1 atk fist with no ld boost...

Counter atk is pretty good no doubt but to say that grey hunters make csms look crappy makes you sound like one of those typical cry babies that spring up before the new codex is even out....

Acute Senses is basically crap. For how often it gets used it should be free.

After playing with the SW codex this past weekend (rednekgunner works at a flgs, so has access to the store copy), we came to some important conclusions:

1) If you actually put much (say, more than 5-10%) of the shiny-new-expensive-uber stuff in your army list, You're Doing It Wrong.

2) If you want to play an all-droppod MEQ force, and you're not playing SW, You're Doing It Wrong.

1230 points gets you 60 grey hunters in drop pods, alternating between 3 squads of twin-flamer/powerfist and 3 squads of twin-melta/power weapon. Every squad can kill a tank, every squad can decimate a uit of infantry, every squad can score, every squad is incredibly self-sufficient... and you've got 60 guys in power armor.

With that core in place (or 4 squads below 1000 pts/5 squads below 1500), it almost doesn't matter what you spend the rest of your points on. Squads in rhinos (or rhinos with a LRC or two) will cost a bit more, but you still have an incredibly strong foundation to build on.

If you've ever wanted to play drop-chaos, but don't want to use apocalypse/FW rules for dreadclaws, this is your huckleberry.

If I see a SW list that spends 200+ points on a character, or fields a lot of wolfguard, or does anything other than max out on grey hunters, I am absolutely unconcerned.

@CatPeeler:
You raise and smash my expectations of the SW codex.

Sounds like an interesting several months.

Troops are the back bone of the army, I'm glad GW is buffing them more and more.

My 7 Cents.

The codex should trigger a second orgy of pod-buying, if nothing else...

Sounds pretty... interesting. Can't wait to see what they do to nids now...

1 (2 for 1st round of combats) atk p fists sound like a bad idea to me. Not sure why you would give them p fists...

Krootman wrote:1 (2 for 1st round of combats) atk p fists sound like a bad idea to me. Not sure why you would give them p fists...

The fists are there so that the non-melta squad can still take out a tank, if need be.

The squad with dual meltas gets 1 power weapon, so that they can take a decent chunk out of an enemy squad. The squad with dual flamers should have *already* taken a decent chunk out of an enemy squad, so the fist may not even need to swing.

The drop pod can actually fairly easily be converted into what looks like a Dreadclaw drop pod [it lacks the Iris hatch on the bottom, but that's on the BOTTOM, so not much of an issue]. I plan on doing this.

@Krootman are you seriously saying I should pay 40 points for a single-shot combi weapon? That's how much an aspiring champion with one of those suckers costs. A squad with 2 meltas and the IoCG [to somewhat compare to ATSKNF] is 180 points, and if you add the champion JUST for the combi-weapon in there, that's 205.

Grey Hunters get 2 meltas and one guy toting d6+1 [+1 more when charging or charged] rending attacks for 170. The squad's already good to go at this point. A few dual-flamer squads with some dual-melta squads, all landing in pods and shooting you, waiting and ready for you to charge them so they can fight you in hth, is a scary idea.

As far as characters go, though, I'm pretty happy with Logan. He does a lot, he fights hard, he can take a lot, and he costs a lot. As it should be. Abaddon, though, just hits hard [when not stabbing himself in the face] and is tough. With not a single army-affecting special rule, he's not worth his price tag. Logan's ability to unlock the all-terminator army is again a huge boon for CSM counts-as dreamers. Since wolf guard terminators can take combi-weapons, CSM can even have their entire army stay WYSIWYG while using the wolf codex.

Its kind of a nitpick but I was disappointed they changed the Capacity of Drop Pods for Wolves just so you could not have 10 Greyhunters and a Wolfguard with a H. Weapon.

Meh its a minor nitpick

Hey, at least it gives some appearance that they're trying to balance stuff.

As stated, though - 10 wolfguard with special weapons and a wulfen mark in the unit is fairly self-sufficient.

Ah, for the IG then an allied inquisitor with a psychic hood and mystics is a must have then...stick them close to a basilisk or a LR or a demolisher....and watch the sparks fly...

I wonder - in the case of a drop pod, the marines themselves are not arriving via deepstrike - they disembark from the drop pod once it's landed.

So mystics can't really direct someone's fire at the marines, can they? Only the drop pod.

Interesting question and probably a case for YMDC.

no you can..it's in the FAQ, either the GW one or the INAT...you can direct the fire AFTER the transported unit disembarks, either at the pod or the unit...

Yeah the Greyhunters for their points are one of the best infantry units in the game.

found it...page 31 of the INAT FAQ 2.2....

INQUISITORIAL HENCHMEN (pages 13-15)
DH.15C.01 – Q: How does the Mystic’s ability function against a Space Marine unit that arrives via Drop Pod and then splits into combat squads?
A: After the units have disembarked and been split, the ‘free shots’ provided by the Mystic are taken at either the Drop Pod or at one of the two disembarked units [clarification].

Aye, the Daemohunters FAQ clarifies it, too. So...at least a possible way of dealing with drop-podding grey hunters early.

Oh lawdy,quit your bitching they're just marines with 1 extra attack,jesus christ.

@Krootman are you seriously saying I should pay 40 points for a single-shot combi weapon? That's how much an aspiring champion with one of those suckers costs. A squad with 2 meltas and the IoCG [to somewhat compare to ATSKNF] is 180 points, and if you add the champion JUST for the combi-weapon in there, that's 205.

Well normally you take the champ for the power wep/power fist to lend some combat power to your squad... I would not take the champ just for the combi weapon. Look at it as sort of a bonus. For 10 points its not all that bad.

Grey hunters are good, but their restrictive options prevent them from being the be all end all of troops that csms pretty much are right now.

Again though... why would you take a power fist and pay 25 (assuming the cost stays the same as the other books) points for 1 atk (2 in 1st round of combat).....seems like a huge waste.......

Will people ever stop moaning every 5 mins?

You pay 170 points for that right?
Lets see what us BA players get.

Special weapons - can take up to 2 plasma pistols at 15 each!
Thats it.

10 men - 250 points.
Weapons - bolt pistol + CCW
Wargear - frag + krak
Rules - ATSKNF, combat squads

Transport - free rhino or pod


So, look at this, stop moaning and live with it.

As has been said, but I will put it more succinctly.

- 10 GH + 2 Specials + PF = Rhino but little assault power
- 10 GH + 2 Specials + 1WG + PF = No Rhino/Pod
- 9 GH + 1 Special + 1WG + PF = Assault power for loss of free special
- PF + Mark of Wolfen = Illegal
- Mark of Wolfen + anything else = More vulnerable in assault

You can't have your cake and eat it too. The transport dilemma is intentional and does make GH go from a 'WTF!?!' rating to a more realistic 'Good'.

Lurker wrote:As has been said, but I will put it more succinctly.

- 10 GH + 2 Specials + PF = Rhino but little assault power
- 10 GH + 2 Specials + 1WG + PF = No Rhino/Pod
- 9 GH + 1 Special + 1WG + PF = Assault power for loss of free special
- PF + Mark of Wolfen = Illegal
- Mark of Wolfen + anything else = More vulnerable in assault

You can't have your cake and eat it too. The transport dilemma is intentional and does make GH go from a 'WTF!?!' rating to a more realistic 'Good'.

I couldn't have said it better, this is exactly the reason CSMS are still the best basic troop in the game.

Krootman wrote:
I couldn't have said it better, this is exactly the reason CSMS are still the best basic troop in the game.

Bah! I wouldn't go that far!