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I dunno.....they do get Ravenwing, Deathwing and some awesome stuff (AV 14 Speeders) and Chaos get none of that "character" stuff really bar some SCs.

This debate is getting pretty interesting, but its turning into a chaos vs puppy comparison. I think you guys are looking at this all wrong. If we are really going to determine which troop (and which army) is better we should see how they stack up vs other armies. (this is a quick analysis off the top of my head feel free to debate or improve this)

Vs marines: well tac squads blow so both puppys and chaos shouldn't have a problem with most marines builds (maybe the vulkin builds) but grey hunters are so many and so cheap they can swarm and overwhelm marines. Chaos can pop the transports with oblits and lash the crap out of the rest of the army and use the csms to press in the same way as the puppys. However I have to give the advantage of puppies cause they can play a rock paper scissors game with marines and trade unit for unit and still have 2-3 squads left.

Vs dark angles im not going to bother just a worse version of mairnes.

Vs blood angels If the Ba player is taking dante+ corb+ terms and death co then im going to have to give the advantage to chaos, they have more long range firepower and can get 2 good combat hqs for the price of 1 puppy special character so im going to have to give the advantage to chaos.

Vs Eldar The only big worry is the seer biker squad and eldraid, and when it comes to Psi defense chaos have none, so im going to have to give the advantage to puppies. Chaos might have the advantage of range but when you can take 6 rhino squads and have room for rune priests you have a list that can really hurt eldar if you get a few lucky rolls. Power weapons dont matter vs seer bikers so gery hunters lack of them is not going to be a problem here. Advantage to Pupppies

Vs dark eldar If you still know people who play them then you know they own any army that is lacking long range fire power. Advantage chaos

Daemonhunters/ necrons/ tau no offensive to you guys but necrons really really need a new book, and any chance of making a solid competitive daemonhunter list died with the new guard faq. I just feel bad for tau anymore, they can do some cute tricks with a positional relay and kroot but thats about all they have going for them. So advantage here: none, both will crush these armies.

Sisters of battle Puppies have the numbers to compete with these guys, but chaos has (IMO and only time will tell) better cc units that can hose sisters in 1-2 rounds of combat. The lack of power weapon/ fists atks hunters have could hurt them here. Both armies http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jspwill struggle poping the exorcists but this is the one case where long fangs might be better then oblits assuming the exorcists roll poorly for their missile shots. Advantage here: none both should be able to beat this army a majority of the time.

Vs nids Puppies have the fex killer and the ability to take a crap ton of special weps is a big deal. However chaos can still handle nids, oblits are great fex poppers, and can get their own mcs and lash is nice. However both sets of super powers can still be stoped by mr tyrant...but the fex killer is going to hurt a whole lot more then lash if it goes off. Also don't underestimate a zerker champ with a p fist..they hurt ALOT. Im going to have to call it a draw here. I think most people will disagree with me on this one but I really feel both armies are great vs nids. Advantage: draw

Orks Well counter atk is nice, but as everyone has pointed out, ld 8 is not and vs orks id rather have 2 flamers over a p fist/ wep. Long fangs will not be enough to stop a mech ork list. 6 man squads mean you could actually fire some lootas at them and have an average chance at taking out some long range guns. Better then that a few outflanking komandows will ruin their day. Also lets not forget chaos has zerkers which rape orks like no other. As an ork player I am really not concerned about the new puppy dex. Sure ragner could give a squad up too 70 atks but thats only 1 unit and it can be delt with. But what do you do vs 4 zerker units 2 lash sorcs and some oblits, its not easy ill tell you that much. Advantage chaos

Vs guard Well vs guard im going to say it as simply as I can.... mech marine players (no matter what chapter or legion) are Franked, vets pop transports, chem cannons finish off the guys inside. Your outnumbered in transports 2-1..... Guardsmen marbo will ruin a long fang squad, and could even kill an oblit squad if hes lucky tho thats much harder. Hydras will harry long range units enough that you might fail some saves. -1 to reserves means its harder to ds oblits, while the puppys can still get 1-2 pods down 1st turn with their special rules, abit they are alone and will get burned the next turn. Guard kill mech armies, its really that simple. If your playing a mech guard army in a torny vs someone who is skilled in their use, you are almost 100% franked..... Advantage here, none but I would rather have chaos because I can spam cheap daemon units that can charge vets, which will keep my csms in their transports.

So overall if I was going to a torny, I think I would rather be weak to eldar, then to orks...and I have a slightly better chance vs guard. Now these are only assuming I play the odds. Im sure there are plenty of people who are going to disagree with me or have a completely different meta game then we have in pa. But from what I have seen in the tornys i have been to in the northeast and from talking to various people I would much rather have a csm army then a puppy army.

Krootman wrote:
Vs dark eldar[/b] If you still know people who play them then you know they own any army that is lacking long range fire power. Advantage chaos

Chaos definitely does not have more long-range firepower than Space Wolves. Wolves have cheaper dakka preds and Long Fangs with missile launchers are dirt cheap compared to Havoks with similar loadouts. Wolves can also take the Rifleman dread which is a far greater threat to DE than Oblits due to both number of shots and target saturation. Not to mention cost. Then you run into the whole issue of Chaos only has 3 force org slots to really fit in all of its more-than-24" guns because Troops, Elites, and Fast Attack don't offer very much for long range firepower unless you compromise a lot of versatility needed in a truly competitive list.

I mean, look at these price tags:

9x Oblits - 675

vs

3x Rifleman Dreads - 375
3x 5x Long Fangs with 4x Missile Launchers - 345

Chaos can kill 3 Raiders 36" away. Space Wolves can knock down NINE by dint of splitting fire and having more units. That's three times as much potential return with almost equivalent point costs. Conversely DE lance fire is going to kill 1 Oblit per wound due to ID. That means that the Long Fangs alone have 50% more wounds, and the Dreads are the most durable AV value versus lance fire.

Orks Well counter atk is nice, but as everyone has pointed out, ld 8 is not and vs orks id rather have 2 flamers over a p fist/ wep. Long fangs will not be enough to stop a mech ork list. 6 man squads mean you could actually fire some lootas at them and have an average chance at taking out some long range guns. Better then that a few outflanking komandows will ruin their day. Also lets not forget chaos has zerkers which rape orks like no other. As an ork player I am really not concerned about the new puppy dex. Sure ragner could give a squad up too 70 atks but thats only 1 unit and it can be delt with. But what do you do vs 4 zerker units 2 lash sorcs and some oblits, its not easy ill tell you that much. Advantage chaos

Space Wolves can take Land Raiders that actually do something. Orks have answers to everything in a competitive chaos list (I play both, it's true) but don't have much answer for AV14. Advantage goes to the guy with better Land Raiders, and that's quite obviously SW.

Vs guard Well vs guard im going to say it as simply as I can.... mech marine players (no matter what chapter or legion) are Franked, vets pop transports, chem cannons finish off the guys inside. Your outnumbered in transports 2-1..... Guardsmen marbo will ruin a long fang squad, and could even kill an oblit squad if hes lucky tho thats much harder. Hydras will harry long range units enough that you might fail some saves. -1 to reserves means its harder to ds oblits, while the puppys can still get 1-2 pods down 1st turn with their special rules, abit they are alone and will get burned the next turn. Guard kill mech armies, its really that simple. If your playing a mech guard army in a torny vs someone who is skilled in their use, you are almost 100% franked..... Advantage here, none but I would rather have chaos because I can spam cheap daemon units that can charge vets, which will keep my csms in their transports.

Chaos does have answers to mech guard but this definitely isn't it. Lesser Daemons don't do gak to Vets snugged in their Chimeras. If you're wasting points on Lesser Daemons versus IG then you have fewer points to spend on the tools you need, like more Rhino CSM with meltas, Termicides with combi meltas, and more oblits.

Likewise Long Fang squads are capable of doing horrible things to AV12 for roughly equivalent points. Okay, Marbo can show up and kill 2-3 with one solid demo throw. That's only breaking even, and it's likely that the remaining Fangs will beat him to death if he charges. Versus Mech Guard the advantage goes to whoever can put out more cheap AT capable of hurting AV12 and the answer to that one is probably a wash; both lists have the tools necessary to down IG. The problem for Chaos, though, is they only get those tools at about 2k points; Wolves can do it at 1500.

Spellbound wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:A Chaos unit has several benefits over a Grey Hunter one. For example, it can take a Sergeant without using an Elites slot. It can also take a Mark, and can have both a Sergeant and two special weapons. That's without even getting into Plague Marines and the other "special troops" that Chaos can field.

Hey, so can Space Wolves!

Logan Grimnar = an extra troops slot provides sergeants to all your squads.

Sergeant and 2 special weapons.... so can grey hunters, you realize. You can have 2 special weapons, 1 guy with d6+1 rending attacks, and another guy with 2(3, counterattack) power weapon attacks.

Marks = IOCG, or just choose the appropriate cult squad instead.

Cult squad = I'm going to have so many more grey hunters than you, armed with FNP-ignoring weapons, that you'll just be bogged down by bodies if nothing else. Or heck, I'll just add a Lone wolf here or there, who rerolls his misses against your T5 guys and has wound-rerolling wolf claws!

I love lone wolves Not overpowered, just.... design-a-character, and loses you no kill points.

I thought the codex says 'Count as Troops' not can be Taken as troops

Fetterkey wrote:The Chaos Codex is not the "weakest MEQ codex out." That (dis)honor belongs to the Dark Angels.

What about Necrons?

At least necrons have mini-gods and a godly-tank.

DA only have doublewing, and even that has been whored off to other armies.

Dark Angels can have Fearless throughout the army, Command squads for all characters, all scoring units in the army, and their Librarians and Chaplains haven't had their combat capability neutered as much as Space Marines and Space Wolves have. Plus the whole infinite range Psychic Hood...

Fearless is a double edged sword.
Command squads are highly meh.
Scoring units are nice, but if you plan for it, you could have 10 or 2, it wouldn't matter too much.

Libby's exchange combat prowess with a much better array of powers.
Chaplains: meh.

Infinite range hood is nice......... 4 pychic rods that screw powers on a determined roll.....all available to be used....better?

/shrug, I was more focused on the whoring of Bikers troops and Terminator troops to other armies: Orks, Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines.

Aduro wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:The Chaos Codex is not the "weakest MEQ codex out." That (dis)honor belongs to the Dark Angels.

What about Necrons?

I don't consider Necrons true MEQs. Their organization is so different that the comparison doesn't really work.