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rogueeyes wrote:This is something great for the Tau ... unless it hits broadsides who are regular infantry.

Now adding wings to a Monstrous Creature - such as a Demon Prince - makes that unit move like jump infantry but it is still a monstrous creature. So would this rule affect them or not? I haven't seen the rule yet but it got me to thinking about different cases. I'd have to double check the Tyranid codex to see if it works the same way as a demon prince when adding wings.

right board sides what range 48?60? can't remember but ether way much great then 24". You know what you're up against so blast that wolf to hell before he gets in range.

Gwar! wrote:Hmm, that is actually a good point.

Jet Pack IS a Subclass of Jump Infantry as it is Jump Infantry (Jet pack) but Jetbikes are certainly a separate unit type.

And I just realised, all these people saying "OMFG Tau are so screwed baaaaaaaaaaaaaw", not a single Tau model worth jawing can be affected! Nor can MC's with the Jump Infantry type. SO QUIT YOUR WHINING!

Yeah I re-examined Jetbikes and I have changed my opinion, I had assumed they were a subclass based purely on the fact they are included in a box on the Bikes page of the rulebook, but really, they are an entirely seperate unit type that happens to use the bike rules as the basis for their own set of rules and then further modify them. Whereas the Jet Packs rules specifically say "Some Jump Infantry are equipped with a special type of jump pack, referred to as a jet pack."

Regarding Tau: If you use broadsides it poses a significant threat to them, of course your broadsides have a significant range meaning they aren't too close to the frontlines generally, but they would be taken out as easy as a Fex by the ability, as would Firewarriors and Pathfinders. If you were crazy enough to use Aun'Va he is I1 infantry. Really Tau don't get it that bad,

What I found amusing is the first time I heard about the ability my immediate reaction was "so they are setting Space Wolves up to be defeated by Dark Eldar? Talk about power creep"

rogueeyes wrote:This is something great for the Tau ... unless it hits broadsides who are regular infantry.

Now adding wings to a Monstrous Creature - such as a Demon Prince - makes that unit move like jump infantry but it is still a monstrous creature. So would this rule affect them or not? I haven't seen the rule yet but it got me to thinking about different cases. I'd have to double check the Tyranid codex to see if it works the same way as a demon prince when adding wings.

Just because it is an MC, it is still Jump Infantry. Or you could say that even though it is Jump Infantry it is still an MC and then the world Implodes

Since it's being touted as sniper capable, driven by initiative etc, I'm thinking this will be the nastiest anti-ork power, taking the PK out of a 30 strong unit of boyz, killing Warbosses to reduced leadership or taking down bigmeks with KFF or SAGs.

Everyone into the battlewagon!

Aye, it is definitely better suited for that PK nob sniping job than Sergeant Telion or even a Vindicare Assassin. This is strong stuff and I assume this will make players go the mech way even more than before when having SW opponents.

Gwar! wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:This is something great for the Tau ... unless it hits broadsides who are regular infantry.

Now adding wings to a Monstrous Creature - such as a Demon Prince - makes that unit move like jump infantry but it is still a monstrous creature. So would this rule affect them or not? I haven't seen the rule yet but it got me to thinking about different cases. I'd have to double check the Tyranid codex to see if it works the same way as a demon prince when adding wings.

Just because it is an MC, it is still Jump Infantry. Or you could say that even though it is Jump Infantry it is still an MC and then the world Implodes

Wings make you MOVE AS jump infantry, you are not not actually Jump Infantry. See the FAQ where a winged lord can still get in a rhino....

So a DP with wings still tests.

Gwar! wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:This is something great for the Tau ... unless it hits broadsides who are regular infantry.

Now adding wings to a Monstrous Creature - such as a Demon Prince - makes that unit move like jump infantry but it is still a monstrous creature. So would this rule affect them or not? I haven't seen the rule yet but it got me to thinking about different cases. I'd have to double check the Tyranid codex to see if it works the same way as a demon prince when adding wings.

Just because it is an MC, it is still Jump Infantry. Or you could say that even though it is Jump Infantry it is still an MC and then the world Implodes

I think it's not a problem with Daemon Princes since they don't actually become Jump Infantry. With regards to a Winged Hive Tyrant, I think the only safe assumption (or atleast the way most people play) which I cannot find any rules contrary to is that a model can belong to two unit types at once, and the Flying Hive Tyrant does this by being both an MC and Jump Infantry.

If you do not allow the Hive Tyrant to belong to both groups it reverts from an MC to just plain old Jump Infantry, meaning it loses all it's MC bonuses (I have never heard of anyone playing this way).

Given that it is simultaneously BOTH unit types, I think the ability would affect it, because the ability says it affects Monstrous Creatures, which the Hive Tyrant is. If the ability specifically said it did not work on Jump Infantry then the conflict would cause problems, but Jump Infantry are merely omitted from the list, there is nothing preventing it from working on Jump Infantry as long as they satisfy one of the other options by having dual unit types.

That's my take on it atleast.

Gwar! wrote:

jab4962 wrote:Aren't Jump Infantry considered infantry?

Are Beasts considered Skimmers?

The correct correlation would be "are Jet Bikes considered Bikes?" The answer is no as they are a differnet unit entry.

Hive Tyrants are not IC, and (Tyranid) wings makes the unit be treated as Jump Infantry in all respects.

kirsanth wrote:Hive Tyrants are not IC, and (Tyranid) wings makes the unit be treated as Jump Infantry in all respects.

This is true.

Oops, slipped up there, meant MC


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:Hive Tyrants are not IC, and (Tyranid) wings makes the unit be treated as Jump Infantry in all respects.

Are you rejecting the idea that they are both MCs and Jump Infantry, or did you get distracted by the typo and not consider the overall idea behind the post, because I'm interested to know if other people agree with my interpretation.

They are both - it never says that JI replaces their current unit type.

Also, that would cause more issues than it solves.

kirsanth wrote:They are both - it never says that JI replaces their current unit type.

Also, that would cause more issues than it solves.

Yeah, Wings do not suddenly mean it stops being an MC, it just becomes Jump Infantry AND an MC. Bear in mind I do not think (I could be mistaken for some of the older codexes)any unit has just an MC type, they are MC and Infantry, MC and Jump Infantry, MC and Beast etc etc.

Daemon Princes are type: Monstrous Creature

They are also never Jump Infantry, so would definitely be affected. If you are MC AND Jump Infantry I would say you are affected by the power, for the reasonings given.

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:They are both - it never says that JI replaces their current unit type.

Also, that would cause more issues than it solves.

Yeah, Wings do not suddenly mean it stops being an MC, it just becomes Jump Infantry AND an MC. Bear in mind I do not think (I could be mistaken for some of the older codexes)any unit has just an MC type, they are MC and Infantry, MC and Jump Infantry, MC and Beast etc etc.

Most MCs are just MCs, very few have options to become another type like the flyrant (actually none other than it that I can think of) and all unit types follow the infantry rules except for when speficied otherwhise, so being defined as both infantry and an MC is pointless.

The Carnifex for example has the monstrous creature special rule the same way Hormagaunts have the Beasts special rule, so the Carnifex is probably just a plain old MC with no other unit types attached.

Drunkspleen wrote:Most MCs are just MCs, very few have options to become another type like the flyrant (actually none other than it that I can think of) and all unit types follow the infantry rules except for when speficied otherwhise, so being defined as both infantry and an MC is pointless.

The Carnifex for example has the monstrous creature special rule the same way Hormagaunts have the Beasts special rule, so the Carnifex is probably just a plain old MC with no other unit types attached.

DP yes? if it's winged. That's MC + JI.

+ LOC + BT

Daemonic Flight and CSM wings let models Move as Jump Infantry, they do not change their type.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:They are both - it never says that JI replaces their current unit type.

Also, that would cause more issues than it solves.

Yeah, Wings do not suddenly mean it stops being an MC, it just becomes Jump Infantry AND an MC. Bear in mind I do not think (I could be mistaken for some of the older codexes)any unit has just an MC type, they are MC and Infantry, MC and Jump Infantry, MC and Beast etc etc.

Most MCs are just MCs, very few have options to become another type like the flyrant (actually none other than it that I can think of) and all unit types follow the infantry rules except for when speficied otherwhise, so being defined as both infantry and an MC is pointless.

The Carnifex for example has the monstrous creature special rule the same way Hormagaunts have the Beasts special rule, so the Carnifex is probably just a plain old MC with no other unit types attached.

True, but if you are the "FAQ's are the word of The God-Emperor Jervis" camp, the Nid FAQ states

"Q. The Tyranid Codex doesn’t designate unit types for its Codex entries. How does this work?
A. All Tyranids are Infantry, unless otherwise specified in their special rules or Biomorphs."

so a Carnifex would be Infantry as well.

Ok then, so if jump infantry are not affected, I would suggest the reason for their exclusion is they can avoid this 'hole', if the mcs with wings are allowed to move as jump infantry, they are also not affected.

Seems logical?

Then what is "stated otherwise"?

Or better yet, what (in the Tyranid codex) would not be infantry, then?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Ok then, so if jump infantry are not affected, I would suggest the reason for their exclusion is they can avoid this 'hole', if the mcs with wings are allowed to move as jump infantry, they are also not affected.

Seems logical?

Logic and 40k are as miscible as Oil and Water or The UK Governments and Competence. If something is Infantry, but Moves like Jump Infantry, it is still infantry. No two ways about it, they are still affected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:Then what is "stated otherwise"?

Or better yet, what (in the Tyranid codex) would not be infantry, then?

Hormagaunts and Raveners

Gwar! wrote:Hormagaunts and Raveners

Gargoyles?
Regardless, they do not say otherwise, any more than a carnifex does.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and rippers! Yaaay a fun use for rippers!

Gwar! wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Ok then, so if jump infantry are not affected, I would suggest the reason for their exclusion is they can avoid this 'hole', if the mcs with wings are allowed to move as jump infantry, they are also not affected.

Seems logical?

Logic and 40k are as miscible as Oil and Water or The UK Governments and Competence. If something is Infantry, but Moves like Jump Infantry, it is still infantry. No two ways about it, they are still affected.

Well this is moot for me without a copy of the codex and the rule to look at.

So lets consider this, because sure as heck there are two or possibly more ways about this.

Infantry is affected, jump infantry isn't. Why?

My offered answer: The fluff of the 'spell' generates the exemption here, it's some kind of hole in the ground. What grants the jump infantry the exemption is the 'jump' aspect. If that is the reason (seems likely) then the jump aspect, carried over to a MC, would also exempt them from this power.

But this discussion is all quite premature really.

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Hormagaunts and Raveners

Gargoyles?
Regardless, they do not say otherwise, any more than a carnifex does.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and rippers! Yaaay a fun use for rippers!

-cough- Gargoyles are not beasts, they are Winged, so are Jump Infantry.

Secondly:
Page 41: Hormagaunts are Beasts, as detailed [in the] Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook
Page 42: Ravaners are Beasts, as detailed [in the] Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook

Rippers are Swarms, which is not a Unit Type, just a Special Rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Well this is moot for me without a copy of the codex and the rule to look at.

kirsanth! WHERE ARE YOU!

So lets consider this, because sure as heck there are two or possibly more ways about this.

Infantry is affected, jump infantry isn't. Why?

My offered answer: The fluff of the 'spell' generates the exemption here, it's some kind of hole in the ground. What grants the jump infantry the exemption is the 'jump' aspect. If that is the reason (seems likely) then the jump aspect, carried over to a MC, would also exempt them from this power.

I am afraid that that is not correct. They are not affected because Jump Infantry are not Infantry, the same way that a Jetbike is not a Bike. (Jetbikes can go into upper levels of Ruins, Bikes may not for example)

But this discussion is all quite premature really.

I agree, but if the exact RaW is what has been reported here, it does lend itself to not affect Jump Infantry but will hit DP with Wings as (Chaos) Wings do not Make them Jump Infantry.

Gwar! wrote:-cough- Gargoyles are not beasts, they are Winged, so are Jump Infantry.

Sure, but are they infantry also, as you said the Carnifex was Infantry?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Well this is moot for me without a copy of the codex and the rule to look at.

Gwar! wrote:kirsanth! WHERE ARE YOU!

It is moot. . .
That is why the debate continues.
Once we have the actual rules, it should not be moot, as it should (hopefully!!) be spelled out.

I just get upset when people use the word to contradict itself.

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:-cough- Gargoyles are not beasts, they are Winged, so are Jump Infantry.

Sure, but are they infantry also, as you said the Carnifex was Infantry?

No, I said the FAQ (OMFG AN FAQ!) states that "All Tyranids are Infantry, unless otherwise specified in their special rules or Biomorphs." Winged Biomorph (Gargoyles) = Jump Infantry in every way.

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:-cough- Gargoyles are not beasts, they are Winged, so are Jump Infantry.

Sure, but are they infantry also, as you said the Carnifex was Infantry?

No, I said the FAQ (OMFG AN FAQ!) states that "All Tyranids are Infantry, unless otherwise specified in their special rules or Biomorphs." Winged Biomorph (Gargoyles) = Jump Infantry in every way.

Then with the previous bit about the Hive Tyrant, can you see why I asked?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Going to (try and) stop this tangent. . . apologies.
I will either make a thread or make the spam into PMs.

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:-cough- Gargoyles are not beasts, they are Winged, so are Jump Infantry.

Sure, but are they infantry also, as you said the Carnifex was Infantry?

No, I said the FAQ (OMFG AN FAQ!) states that "All Tyranids are Infantry, unless otherwise specified in their special rules or Biomorphs." Winged Biomorph (Gargoyles) = Jump Infantry in every way.

Then with the previous bit about the Hive Tyrant, can you see why I asked?

I am not seeing the issue...

kirsanth wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Well this is moot for me without a copy of the codex and the rule to look at.

Gwar! wrote:kirsanth! WHERE ARE YOU!

It is moot. . .
That is why the debate continues.
Once we have the actual rules, it should not be moot, as it should (hopefully!!) be spelled out.

I just get upset when people use the word to contradict itself.

Not that I was, if an issue is rendered moot, it's basically conjecture and supposition which is all this debate is for me until I have access to the document. You seem to be suggesting I misused that word? It does not suggest that discussion is closed merely that it's just talk, from my angle, until I can read it for myself, hence me bowing out.

tata